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Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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He was being creepy, but not as manipulative as LF. I dont know if that's a point in his favor. Maribald calls types like him "evil men." In modern day, theey're the guys doing life for murder in a federal penitentiary. I remember joining asoiaf fandom as a young fan and seeing all of the Sandor fangirls and just being like?!?!

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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21 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I remember joining asoiaf fandom as a young fan and seeing all of the Sandor fangirls and just being like?!?!

So what? I liked Sandor actually in Game the first time I read it, because i thought he was an excellent villain, then in Clash and Storm I liked him less and less. But after a couple of rereads and also finishing my bachelors on psychology and working in an addiction clinic for a year, I came to realize that he is a great character, because with him GRRM manages to portray the effects of severe childhood trauma with an amazing psychological accuracy.  Let ppl just have their favorite characters, no need to be so condescending imo. The series is full of very immoral characters, so I'm sure you like one, that other ppl don't understand why you do. Ppl just have different opinions, that's normal and it's just fiction after all.

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3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So what? I liked Sandor actually in Game the first time I read it, because i thought he was an excellent villain, then in Clash and Storm I liked him less and less. But after a couple of rereads and also finishing my bachelors on psychology and working in an addiction clinic for a year, I came to realize that he is a great character, because with him GRRM manages to portray the effects of severe childhood trauma with an amazing psychological accuracy.  Let ppl just have their favorite characters, no need to be so condescending imo. The series is full of very immoral characters, so I'm sure you like one, that other ppl don't understand why you do. Ppl just have different opinions, that's normal and it's just fiction after all.

I'm talking about romanticization which is quite off the wall. His d y.i.n.g. words are that he should have raped Sansa and still people were like "tale as old as time" :wub: like it was straight out of a Disney film. Its great that you find him interesting but you can tell GRRM never really intended for him to be that popular and that he's just a Boba Fett type.

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10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just think he already died for her. "The Hound is dead", remember? And that's also what he says to her: "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you."

And if you think about it, why would "The Hound" have to die anyway, if not to be able to communicate with Sansa? He does definitely not need to change to kill UnGregor.

And what do you think all the marriage symbolism, association means? ( I'm genuinely curious!)

 

What marriage symbolism are speaking of? The one we're she accept his cloak? Sure at first glance at it, it seems that her taking that cloak suggest that they might get married, but if you look at the marriage symbolism in general you get in Sansa's narrative you will realize that it's nothing more than a red herring. Targaryen symbolism is strong in Sansa's chapters: multiple fire & blood references (including the cloak), dragonflies, the times the ballad "A dance of dragons" has been mentioned Sansa is always somewhere close, and the Ashford Tourney theory suggest to me that Sansa will eventually marry a Targaryen Prince, not Sandor Clegane. 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar My apologies, I was speaking in general, not accusing you of it, I should have clarified it better. All I am saying is that we should be critical of their dynamic and not automatically think that there's something romantic about them (again I am speaking in general).

@Rose of Red Lake I couldn't agree with you more. Just because their dynamic has a strong 'Beauty & the Beast' theme doesn't automatically mean everything is well. I mean Sansa & Joffrey dynamic also has a strong 'Cinderella' theme but there nothing romantic about them. If anything it's a deconstruction of the fairy tale. Why should Sansa/Sandor dynamic be any different? If Joffrey taught her that not all Princes are charming and being beautiful doesn't automatically make you good, then what she learned of Sandor Clegane (and Tyrion too btw) is that just because you are ugly doesn't automatically mean you are evil and that what made Sandor Clegane (and Tyrion) a 'beast' was not his grotesque appearance but his abusive behavior. 

 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm talking about romanticization which is quite off the wall. His d y.i.n.g. words are that he should have raped Sansa and still people were like "tale as old as time" :wub: like it was straight out of a Disney film. Its great that you find him interesting but you can tell GRRM never really intended for him to be that popular and that he's just a Boba Fett type.

Nah, it's not the Disney version, but have you seen La Belle et la Bete (1946) from Cocteau? It's exactly like that. (and also pretty close to the original fairytale from Gabrielle-Suzanne de Vielleneuve) 

I don't think I romanticize him. I think he was abusive towards Sansa and Ayra (but GRRM gives us reasons for that) and he is also not among my 9 favorite characters, but Sansa and Arya are and you just don't get around Sandor, if you reread their chapters a lot. So I think I'm able to be relatively objective, when I'm analyzing his character and I totally understand, why ppl wouldn't like him, I'm not upset about that or anything.

George was surprised, that ppl thought he was hot :laugh: because he is supposed to be the beast on the outside and also partly on the inside and the beast is not suppose to be hot, because he is a beast. There is the difference between the disney version and the og version. The og beast is not attractive (but downright ugly and repulsive), because he is a beast. Not being attractive, scary, creepy and violent is the point of his character. Google early images of the og fairytale la belle et la bete- they are scary :unsure:

But GRRM gave him too many likable and redeemable qualities, because, I guess, in the end he wants readers to be able to somehow forgive him (even though not everyone will be able to of course). And it doesn't help that this world is full of way worse monsters, than the Hound.

But it's not just women romanticizing him, men do it just as much. A lot of ppl seeing him as an anti-hero, which i personally don't do at all.

About the dying words... I'm sure you had debates about that already, I dunno?

So now that you bring it up, I guess I'll give my analysis as well :) So here we have the quote:

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.”

Why do you think he wanted to rape her, but not to kill her? He says he should have ripped her heart out, too. (For some reason ppl always leave that out)

Because it just doesn't makes any sense content- wise, does it? Why would he cry about "letting them beat her", why would that upset him so much, when he wanted to kill her? Also what would Tyrion do with a dead Sansa? Content-wise that doesn't make any sense at all.

When he says "I meant to take her too. I should have" this could mean rape or he should have taken her with him out of the city. So when  we look at the scene in question are there any clues about what he actually intended? 

He for sure acts very violently and he does assault her, he just doesn't sexually assault her. As much as ppl might feel like that's the case, at no point is there any evidence that he ever intended to rape her. There are however clues, that he wanted to take her with him out of the city. 

Going, yes.” “Where will you go?” “Away from here. Away from the fires. Go out the Iron Gate, I suppose. North somewhere, anywhere.”

“I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.”

He can't keep her save, if she's not coming with him. So imo, when he says "I meant to take her too. I should have" he means with him out of the city. 

His initial intention was to take her out of the city and now he thinks he should have done that. So in the next sentence he says, what he should have done before leaving her there. He should have done the most horrible thing imaginable, that could ever happen to her in this world (the person, he was just crying about not being able to protect better) - meaning he should have never in a million years left her there. 

Of course he says all that in very violent and horrible way and I can totally understand, that readers are repulsed and upset about it. But violence is a big part of how he communicates. He is desensitized by violence and it is also the thing he understands best, what was done and taught to him the most, what he relates to the most. 

Does that mean he really always wants to inflict that violence, that he threatens on others? We have numerous examples that show us otherwise.

So many times he threatens violence on Arya. Right before his "death", he tells her: “I’d skin you alive for a cup of wine, girl.”

other examples: 

“But if you’re stupid enough to try again, I’ll hurt you.”

“The next time you say that name I’ll beat you so bad you’ll wish I killed you.”

When Sandor Clegane shouted at her to get back inside before he beat her bloody,

“But I’ll beat you if you make me.

If I had any sense I’d give you to the silent sisters. They cut the tongues out of girls who talk too much.”

"Now be quiet, or I’ll cut your tongue out myself and save the silent sisters the bother."

 

But he still never beats her, even though he is under a lot of pressure and Ayra is doing whatever she can to sabotage his plans. Yoren on the other hand does beat her. 

He threatens Sansa a lot as well. This is the way of communication he trusts. He doesn't trust people, but he knows, when he threatens them, they'll for sure do whatever he tells them to. This likely happens on a subconscious level.

His behavior is of course abusive especially by our standards, but we have to remember that this is a guy, who has probably more than one psychological disorder caused by severe childhood trauma.

He didn't physically hurt Sansa, even though he was drunk, drunk on battle and was experiencing an acute episode of PTSD. That actually says a lot and I think, Sansa, who understands the complexity of the Hound's character better then she is often given credit for, recognizes this afterwards as well.

Now he is still abusive and Sansa and Arya shouldn't be exposed to that kind of behavior. That's why he has to "die" and get intensive therapy, for there to ever be the possibility for a positive, productive relationship between him and the Stark sisters. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

he's just a Boba Fett type.

Okay, I'll compare him to the Boba Fett of the original trilogy, because that's where ppl fell in love with him.

Boba Fett is a bounty hunter hunting Han Solo for money to be able to hand him over to Jabba the Hutt, whom Han Solo owns money.

He has exactly four lines. We know he has a cool outfit, with which he can fly away quickly. he is badass and we never see his face.

 

Now compare that to how GRRM has crafted the Hound's character. He is more complex, than some pov characters imo. And there are multiple sources, that claim, that GRRM has confirmed he'll be back. There has to be a reason, why it's significant for his character's function in the story, that he changes. 

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2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

What marriage symbolism are speaking of? The one we're she accept his cloak? Sure at first glance at it, it seems that her taking that cloak suggest that they might get married, but if you look at the marriage symbolism in general you get in Sansa's narrative you will realize that it's nothing more than a red herring. Targaryen symbolism is strong in Sansa's chapters: multiple fire & blood references (including the cloak), dragonflies, the times the ballad "A dance of dragons" has been mentioned Sansa is always somewhere close, and the Ashford Tourney theory suggest to me that Sansa will eventually marry a Targaryen Prince, not Sandor Clegane. 

Oh, there is a lot more then just the cloak. On it's own, it might not be that significant, but if you take it all together, you almost feel hit over the head with it, at least imo. If you're interested, I'll make a list. And explain my thoughts about it.

That's the reason why I think they'll ultimately get married in the end. If it wasn't for all the marriage symbolism and association, I wouldn't even be sure they would ever meet again.

What marriage symbolism and association is there when it comes to Sansa and other men? Haven't noticed any! Please show me!!! :rolleyes:

I don't know, if I can agree about the fire and blood symbolism. I feel like there are characters in who's chapters, fire occurs way more often than in Sansa's. And I also can't recognize any fire symbolism. Imo there is "just fire there". But maybe you can give me some examples? Everyone, who was present at the Battle of the Blackwater for example experienced the wildfire. Of course her burning her mattress sticks out, but that also makes a lot of sense content-wise. And her getting her period was a big part of her story-arc. I can't think of any other blood references and again I think there is more blood in other characters' chapters. And she just likes songs.

Rn I can't recognize the Targaryen symbolism, but maybe if you provide some quotes, I'll see it.

When it come to the Ashford Tourney, there are actually also ppl, who are convinced it points to Sansa and Sandor ending up together.

 

 

But Lady Ashford did never end up with any of the champions herself. And most importantly: Among the champions there is no Arryn.

Sansa was also supposed to marry Sweetrobin. So the Ashford Tourney really doesn't hold any significance for her after all.

I'm actually not opposed to Sansa and Jon ending up together. Even though I think Jon will end up with Dany, because "you know what".

And if he afterwards would suddenly very quickly get together with Sansa, that would undermine the importance and significance of J+D. And I also don't think George can do the incest thing over and over again.

But I'm not against it, I just can't see it yet.

 

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26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh, there is a lot more then just the cloak. On it's own, it might not be that significant, but if you take it all together, you almost feel hit over the head with it, at least imo. If you're interested, I'll make a list. And explain my thoughts about it.

That's the reason why I think they'll ultimately get married in the end. If it wasn't for all the marriage symbolism and association, I wouldn't even be sure they would ever meet again.

What marriage symbolism and association is there when it comes to Sansa and other men? Haven't noticed any! Please show me!!! :rolleyes:

I don't know, if I can agree about the fire and blood symbolism. I feel like there are characters in who's chapters, fire occurs way more often than in Sansa's. And I also can't recognize any fire symbolism. Imo there is "just fire there". But maybe you can give me some examples? Everyone, who was present at the Battle of the Blackwater for example experienced the wildfire. Of course her burning her mattress sticks out, but that also makes a lot of sense content-wise. And her getting her period was a big part of her story-arc. I can't think of any other blood references and again I think there is more blood in other characters' chapters. And she just likes songs.

Rn I can't recognize the Targaryen symbolism, but maybe if you provide some quotes, I'll see it.

When it come to the Ashford Tourney, there are actually also ppl, who are convinced it points to Sansa and Sandor ending up together.

 

 

But Lady Ashford did never end up with any of the champions herself. And most importantly: Among the champions there is no Arryn.

Sansa was also supposed to marry Sweetrobin. So the Ashford Tourney really doesn't hold any significance for her after all.

I'm actually not opposed to Sansa and Jon ending up together. Even though I think Jon will end up with Dany, because "you know what".

And if he afterwards would suddenly very quickly get together with Sansa, that would undermine the importance and significance of J+D. And I also don't think George can do the incest thing over and over again.

But I'm not against it, I just can't see it yet.

 

I like your take on things. As to Jon & Sansa I think GRRM went to great lengths to show us the travesty of Jaime & Cersei for a reason. I can't see him putting Jon & Sansa together & meaning for it to be a good union. I think that is probably one of the reasons he changed Jon & Arya. I'm thankful he did because they are two of my favorite characters & it would have ruined them for me :ack:

I know Jon & Sansa/Arya are cousins & that Jon & Dany would be incest as well but there is something to be said for growing up as siblings. Often times it makes them "more" related than if two people are actually blood siblings but didn't meet or know about each other until they grew up. Jon & Sansa/Arya - mostly Arya, already have a relationship; a sister/brother relationship & to change the whole dynamic of that relationship to make it a sexual one just doesn't feel right. 

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2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.”

Why do you think he wanted to rape her, but not to kill her? He says he should have ripped her heart out, too. (For some reason ppl always leave that out)

"before leaving her for the dwarf" is another part that people tend to leave out. Those six words are the point of the whole passage.

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@Nagini's Neville This post goes in great length how Jon/Sansa has been foreshadowed from the beginning. The only thing I disagree with is them becoming King & Queen of Westeros. I happen to believe that the Seven realms will become kingdoms again and that Jon/Sansa will rule over the North. 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I understand your revulsion to the idea. I initially was like that too, but I eventually got over it because as a big Sansa fan I don't see anyone worthy of her but Jon. He's within her age range, he likes Sansa just the way she is, and he's the only character who comes remotely close to the knight/prince/king she always dreamed of. That is the more important to me than the pseudo incest. I have my priorities :D

Edited by Elegant Woes

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On 19. Oktober 2019 at 4:54 PM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

"before leaving her for the dwarf" is another part that people tend to leave out. Those six words are the point of the whole passage.

yeah I know, but I feel like ppl interpret that as a timeline, even though it makes NO sense at all:

 1. First I rape and kill her

2. Second: than I leave her dead on the bed for that dwarf

But first I cry my eyes out about her beatings for a bit lol.

And also what would Tyrion do with a corpse? That dwarf can do nothing with a dead Sansa.

 

And I also just really trust Elio and Linda, who have written the A World of ASOIAF App. I've been watching their videos for years and I feel like they really care about the books so much and wouldn't just make anything up. Elio said, that he asked GRRM 100 of questions, while writing the app - so I kinda trust that, what ever wasn't explicitly written in the books and they put in the app, they asked George about. Elio works so much with George and he kind of knows the books even better (when it comes to the details), hence why George apparently asks Elio a lot, when it comes to details about minor characters. I understand, why other ppl wouldn't want to do that, but I just happen to trust them.

App:

"he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him- as well as her song- make him leave without her."

I think a lot of ppl also forget about the practicality of it all. By that time he already knew, that she probably wouldn't come with him willing. So how would he have gotten her out of the city? he probably would have had to knock her out the way he did with Arya or threaten her so badly, that she would come with him. But I think after she sang him the song, he just couldn't do that anymore.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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33 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville This post goes in great length how Jon/Sansa has been foreshadowed from the beginning. The only thing I disagree with is them becoming King & Queen of Westeros. I happen to believe that the Seven realms will become kingdoms again and that Jon/Sansa will rule over the North. 

Thank you, I'll look into it and give you my feedback. Hah we have something in common, I also happen to think they might split up the kingdom again- just not so sure about J+S ;)

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If Sansa is to have a relationship with a Targaryen prince, isn't it more likely to be fAegon? I know this is the book forum but George consulted on the show, so I can't see Jon/Dany as anything but inevitable. The Jon/Sansa stuff seems like a huge reach to me (interpreting Sandor giving his cloak to Sansa as a hint for Jon/Sansa? Really?) compared to the obvious parallels between Jon and Daenerys plus, you know... the fact that they were an item on the show.

Not to mention, Jon/Sansa would undermine the (platonic) Jon/Arya relationship that is probably the most important and emotional in the entire series. Arya has been told her whole life that she is not as good as her sister. She still has a complex about it as late as ADWD. Imagine her reaction to even her beloved brother choosing Sansa over her? (I know, love relationships aren't the same as sibling ones, but in general they are more intense and take precedence over the latter). 

As for Sandor, well George mentioned him alongside Theon and Jaime as characters he "didn't expect to be popular." Personally I think he was being a bit cheeky because I don't see how it's possible to write Jaime's chapters with the depth, humour, and introspectiveness that he did and not expect him to be popular! It's not surprising that morally grey anti-heroes/anti-villains/whatever you want to call them are popular with fans, because they have been in every fandom I've been a part of and I'm sure a long-time nerd like GRRM is aware of that lol. 

I also don't see why a potential relationship has to be "endgame" to happen. The author clearly prefers writing romances that are tragic and/or dramatic (Rhaegar/Lyanna, Daemon/Rhaenyra, probably Jon/Daenerys as well because I doubt D&D came up with Jon killing Dany themselves) to those that are merely 'cute.' Sansa/Sandor is more likely than Jon/Sansa on that basis alone (although I think neither is likely to happen), but it would be twisted and probably end with Sandor's death. 

 

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13 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

I also don't see why a potential relationship has to be "endgame" to happen. The author clearly prefers writing romances that are tragic and/or dramatic (Rhaegar/Lyanna, Daemon/Rhaenyra, probably Jon/Daenerys as well because I doubt D&D came up with Jon killing Dany themselves) to those that are merely 'cute.' Sansa/Sandor is more likely than Jon/Sansa on that basis alone (although I think neither is likely to happen), but it would be twisted and probably end with Sandor's death. 

The reason why I think, that won't be the case is because of all the marriage symbolism, association, when it comes to Sansa and Sandor. Maybe he/she might die after the wedding though- that's possible of course. 

But I don't think just because there are a lot of tragic relationships, that there can't be some happy ones at the end of the series as well. Otherwise the story stays static and that wouldn't be a very good arc. There needs to be development and George has shown, that he is really good with that.

And I also I don't think "bitter-sweet" means, every character will have a "bitter-sweet" ending- what a weird overall ending would that be?

Some of them will die and have a "bitter" ending and some of them will survive and maybe have a relatively "sweet" ending :D (as sweet, as its can be after going through all that shit) 

And I think the characters, who had some triumphs and agency are more likely to die, than the ones, who didn't.

suffer,suffer,suffer,suffer,suffer some more than die- is just not such a good story arc imo. 

 

And come on, must we really continue to pit the sisters against each other? They haven't even seen each other since they were 9 and 11. Nowhere in the world is the relationship between a 9 and an 11 year old taken so seriously than in the ASOIAF Fandom :rolleyes:

Maybe the 2 of them develop an excellent relationship. And why in the world would Arya get super jealous, if Jon and Sansa would get together, her special relationship with him would not get lost because of that. And if it would, than that would have happened with another girl as well. And Arya also is very independent. 

The more important question would be, why would Sansa and Jon suddenly want to be together, when they grew up as siblings?

Maybe Aria and Sansa suddenly will get along very well and both won't get along with Jon. They all develop, who knows what will happen, when they all meet each other again.

 

 

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@aromaticanalysisI don't think it's fake Aegon, because it's heavily implied that he's the son of illyrio. There is only one alive Targaryen prince and his name is Jon Snow. Besides there's a whole lot more Jon/Sansa foreshadowing than just the white cloak with fire & blood. I suggest you read the post I shared. 

It's one thing to like a morally grey character, and a whole another thing to ship that morally grey adult male with a child who is 16 years his junior. Nor can you deny how awful he is to Sansa. Like really awful. 

What makes you think that GRRM doesn't like to write about 'cute' couples? He said the ending will be bittersweet. That means some characters will have a somewhat of a happy ending, and the most likely ones to have that ending are the Stark children. They are the heart and heroes of this story. What would be a happy ending for Sansa and Jon in specific? To get what the wanted from the beginning. Sansa wanted to experience true love with her knight and/or prince and have children with him. Jon wanted to be a Stark, to have Winterfell, marry a highborn lady, and have children with her. They would get that with each other. Their dreams fit together perfectly. I don't think that this is a coincidence on GRRM's part. 

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3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

understand your revulsion to the idea. I initially was like that too, but I eventually got over it because as a big Sansa fan I don't see anyone worthy of her but Jon. He's within her age range, he likes Sansa just the way she is, and he's the only character who comes remotely close to the knight/prince/king she always dreamed of. That is the more important to me than the pseudo incest. I have my priorities

I agree Jon is closer to the prince Sansa dreams of but I think part of her arc is waking up out of that fantasy land. She has seen & experienced far too much to still believe in what she did before IMO. Also he doesn't really like Sansa the way she is. I mean I don't think he hates her but of all his siblings he seems to like her the least, probably partially because she doesn't particularly like him. 

Not to mention we really don't know who Jon will be when/if he comes back. 

The incest aside, for this to work they would have to reunite, learn who each other are, & then fall in love. Unless the marriage would be for political purposes, which I don't see happening. I don't think the Northmen would accept it. They clearly look down on incest & if they think Theon is close enough to the family to be considered a kinslayer for killing Bran & Rickon I don't think they will accept Jon & Sansa raised as siblings. 

Lastly I don't think there is anyway around Jon & Dany. It would be too much for Jon to meet, get to know, & fall in love with both of them in the last two books IMO. 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I know Jon & Sansa/Arya are cousins & that Jon & Dany would be incest as well but there is something to be said for growing up as siblings. Often times it makes them "more" related than if two people are actually blood siblings but didn't meet or know about each other until they grew up. Jon & Sansa/Arya - mostly Arya, already have a relationship; a sister/brother relationship & to change the whole dynamic of that relationship to make it a sexual one just doesn't feel right. 

I feel like it would totally come out of the blue. Imo there aren't any hints about some possible non- platonic feelings between them in the future and I feel like, this is just so NOT GRRM. 

I also agree with what you are saying. There is actually some research that shows, that adults usually don't develop romantic or sexual feeling for ppl they have been close to in their first 5 years. 

An argument could of course be, that Sansa and Jon actually weren't that close. But I think that specifically in their first 5 years they might have been still quite close- in a "put the kids all together way" kind of way.

If GRRM could do it right, so that it would somehow make sense, I would actually not mind it, I just don't think he is doing that rn.

I really like Sansa and I actually just would like to see her happy and healthy, however that could be achieved would be fine with me :D (maybe that's already to much to ask lol)

But generally speaking, I actually just want to read, what George has in mind for his story. And I'm just trying to analyze the text. If Sansa suddenly develops feelings for Jon, fAegon, Tyrion or whoever I will be analyzing that as well- cause it's fun :D

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On 10/16/2019 at 1:28 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Woah. I mean, things can always get worse. But should they?

:D They usually do.

On 10/16/2019 at 1:28 AM, Hugorfonics said:

(What was his first war crime?)

I'm thinking wildfire chemical weapons is the war crime. Burning the Vale would be another (because, proxy punishment, and, especially with winter coming, genocide).

On 10/16/2019 at 1:28 AM, Hugorfonics said:

So, who the hell knows lol. Its dark, Ill give it to you. Still incomparable to his sister though. 

I think he's literally the hybrid son of Aerys and Tywin - so no surprise there's a lot of crazy thoughts racing through his head. Sometimes he catches them in time, sometimes not. Only actions count.

Dragging a bit nearer back to topic, Tyrion is such a pivotal character, I reckon his marriage to Sansa is pivotal too and will last (till death us do part, anyway). He too is a beast and protector; her little lion.

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@Elegant Woes I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole post. No disrespect to the OP or you but there isn't much substance there IMO. 

I'll address what I did read. 

Sansa to marry a king - I suppose this could be foreshadowing Sansa marrying a King or it could be taken at face value - Arya's refusal to be a lady. Either way I don't see how it relates to Jon who is not a King nor is he likely to ever be one. fAegon may be though. 

Sandor's cloak in Fire & Blood - again I don't think this is foreshadowing anything to do with the Targ's. The cloak is literally stained with fire & blood from a battle that involved wildfire. I don't think we are meant to interpret that symbolically but even if we are this would also fit for fAegon. Also let's not forget this is Sandor's cloak - someone Sansa has already established a relationship with & who isn't related to her. 

Jaime likens snow to the pretty white cloaks the KG wears - if this is foreshadowing anything & I'm not convinced it is it seems more to foreshadow Jon potentially being a member of the KG. 

The order of chapters - this is kinda silly IMO. The order of the chapters have been moved around too much for any conclusion to be drawn from this. 

I'll try to read the rest of the post later.

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3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

This post goes in great length how Jon/Sansa has been foreshadowed from the beginning. The only thing I disagree with is them becoming King & Queen of Westeros. I happen to believe that the Seven realms will become kingdoms again and that Jon/Sansa will rule over the North.  

I mostly agree with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar above.

The bit about Jon and Sansa completing each other's dreams is very good though.

Still, it feels like an unlucky pairing to me. Crowning a king and queen of winter would be like winter triumphant.

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