Jump to content
LadyOfCastamere

Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

"before leaving her for the dwarf" is another part that people tend to leave out. Those six words are the point of the whole passage.

And...

Quote

I’d skin you alive for a cup of wine, girl.”

Um, he's gruff.   But you might hear the 'skin you alive' quote as part of one of the new Budweiser ads.   It's manly smalltalk.   'My kingdom for a BJ.'   That sort of thing.  Gruff because that's all he knows.  Rappers use F and N words because they don't know how to rhyme whore with 'Heretofore.'    Gruffness is the currency they deal in.  

But isn't Sandor / Sansa also part of that whole mideval culture of knights and ladies sleeping with a sword between them to keep them chaste and singing songs/poems to each other because they're doing their damnedest to civilize their burning inner urge to bone.  Hence, "i shoulda fucked her" is his admission that he wanted the 'Song' from her to consist of Sansa squealing in pleasure, but settled for the sung song because she was such an idealist creature that he didn't want to add to her shame and suffering but rather wanted her suffering to end.   Hence "tearing her heart out" would be like putting someone out of their misery so the lannisters wouldn't have any further opportunity to heap new pains upon Sansa.  He couldn't stand the thought, so considered solving it with his tool the sword.  Because he didn't have the toolkit to wisk her away on his back successfully.  She'd wither and die on the road unlike Arya, and it would just get them hunted down so it wasn't a viable solution.  It wasn't his place to theive her, and it wasn't her place to be on the lamb.

So..... if Sandor & Sansa are to see each other again......  the most obvious clegane bowl continuation would feature sandor returning to KL first, somehow defeating Rob Strong as this plot would require Sandor to be alive, so Cercei would be forfeit to the hangman & the Faith, who would probably let Aegon into the city as their newly appointed ruler, something goes wrong with the Arianne courtship, Petyr gets Sansa to KL, Sansa feels better about making the trip once word reaches her that Sandor is waiting there triumphant, her champion, and Cercei is already removed or has fled by ship with the Ironborn. 

 

So there they'd stand, Aegon and Sansa, in the throneroom, with Sandor standing behind them, looking on.  Like how Darth Vader was looking around as the Emperor sent lightning bolts into Luke Skywalker.  Sandor may then have the chance to help Sansa into his arms when the Aegon regime is revealed to be false and some of his backers are revealed to be nuts.  (Varys can't end well, right?)    I maintain there's not a damn thing unworthy about the teen king himself, but I'm aware that worthiness doesn't keep you alive in George World, so...

I'm also not a fan of ending the series with incest pairings, as if the theme is that incest is for always.  It should be symbolic of dynasties that are holding on too long in a toxic way for both themselves and the realm.  The "happy" ending should involve a fire and ice baby so the world gets Obama level change, you know, like Omega Level change to the status quo with the Others, the wall, etc.  The need for targs to incest should be replaced by this long awaited revitalization on the magic blood.  But I wonder if Jon and Danny will survive long enough to potty train the child of ice and fire.  Maybe that role will fall upon Auntie Sansa.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I think you missed the entire point of Sansa's arc. The lesson Sansa is supposed to learn isn't 'life isn't a song' but rather in the face of adversity you should uphold the values and ideals you learned from the songs and inspire others to do the same. There's a reason why her interactions with Sandor ended up with him eventually caving into her and feeling ashamed about his behavior towards her. He cried in his 'last moments' because despite his hatred for knights he was in many ways no different from them. The underlying message of their interaction was about a battle of ideologies: idealism vs. nihilism. We all know what won in the end. That is why Sansa is a beautiful and powerful character. Even though there were people trying to break her spirit (Cersei & Sandor) she persevered. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nagini's Neville I think the 'marriage' foreshadowing is just (possible) foreshadowing for a romantic relationship, not an actual marriage. The Sansa/Sandor relationship is too inherently twisted to get a happy ending IMO. Re: Arya, her insecurities specifically revolve around being considered inferior to her sister for not being a 'proper lady' which is why I feel it would be traumatizing for her to see Jon in a romantic relationship with Sansa but not another woman. In her mind Jon is the only one who accepted her completely despite her tomboy personality. Him turning around and hooking up with Sansa is like confirmation that, wait no, your sister really is superior to you, even to the person you love most in the world.

@Elegant Woes The Ashford Theory relies on the fact that Joffrey is perceived as a Baratheon, despite actually being a Lannister. fAegon is a Blackfyre but everyone will think he is a Targaryen, which is all that matters. I read the post you shared but it seems like "if you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" thinking to me, and apparently most of the respondents in that thread agree with me. IA that the Sansa/Sandor relationship is messed up (in more ways than one), I just disagree that it would stop George from writing it. Their relationship up to now has direct romantic overtones in a way that goes beyond, well, Arya said "marrying a king" was more like Sansa, therefore Sansa will definitely marry a king, and that king must be Jon for reasons (despite the fact that we know from the show that Jon will not be king). I also doubt that he will present brother/sister incest as a "happy ending." 

And I agree with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar, there is no way around Jon/Dany. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Hence "tearing her heart out" would be like putting someone out of their misery so the lannisters wouldn't have any further opportunity to heap new pains upon Sansa.  He couldn't stand the thought, so considered solving it with his tool the sword.  Because he didn't have the toolkit to wisk her away on his back successfully.  She'd wither and die on the road unlike Arya, and it would just get them hunted down so it wasn't a viable solution.  It wasn't his place to theive her, and it wasn't her place to be on the lamb.

I really don't think Sandor ever wanted to kill her that night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I think you missed the entire point of Sansa's arc. The lesson Sansa is supposed to learn isn't 'life isn't a song' but rather in the face of adversity you should uphold the values and ideals you learned from the songs and inspire others to do the same. There's a reason why her interactions with Sandor ended up with him eventually caving into her and feeling ashamed about his behavior towards her. He cried in his 'last moments' because despite his hatred for knights he was in many ways no different from them. The underlying message of their interaction was about a battle of ideologies: idealism vs. nihilism. We all know what won in the end. That is why Sansa is a beautiful and powerful character. Even though there were people trying to break her spirit (Cersei & Sandor) she persevered. 

Well, yes, but that doesn't mean the rest of the series will be Sansa wish-fulfilment where all her childhood dreams come true, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah I know, but I feel like ppl interpret that as a timeline, even though it makes NO sense at all:

 2. First I rape and kill her

2. Second: than I leave her dead on the bed for that dwarf

But first I cry my eyes out about her beatings for a bit lol.

And also what would Tyrion do with a corpse? That dwarf can do nothing with a dead Sansa.

I always read "before leaving her for the dwarf" as "instead of leaving her for the dwarf".

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it depends on what you define as a relationship when it comes Jon/Dany. If you mean them have sex and Jon ruthlessly using her for dragons in the battle for Dawn? Then yes. However if believe that they will fall in love and have a magical baby? Then no. There are a lot of hints that Jon will be Dany's betrayal for love. In the end it will be either one of them surviving. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, aromaticanalysis said:

As for Sandor, well George mentioned him alongside Theon and Jaime as characters he "didn't expect to be popular." Personally I think he was being a bit cheeky because I don't see how it's possible to write Jaime's chapters with the depth, humour, and introspectiveness that he did and not expect him to be popular! ... 

:agree:GRRM must be absolutely delighted with the fan reaction to Jaime and Sandor. He knew what he wrote, and maybe it worked even better than expected.

And GRRM wrote fourteen (?) episodes of a tv series called Beauty and the Beast.  It's not possible that he could write scenes echoing B&B and not be conscious of it. He knows what he's writing.

1 hour ago, aromaticanalysis said:

I also don't see why a potential relationship has to be "endgame" to happen. The author clearly prefers writing romances that are tragic and/or dramatic (Rhaegar/Lyanna, Daemon/Rhaenyra, probably Jon/Daenerys as well because I doubt D&D came up with Jon killing Dany themselves) to those that are merely 'cute.' ...

Yep. Or potential stories that just don't happen. Morrows not made, and all that.

20 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

But isn't Sandor / Sansa also part of that whole mideval culture of knights and ladies sleeping with a sword between them to keep them chaste and singing songs/poems to each other because they're doing their damnedest to civilize their burning inner urge to bone. ...

Yeah! True knights, isn't that what Sansa's all about?

There are two ways to fall in love in the books. The first way is; go at it hammer and tongs (e.g. Daario had Dany every way a man could have a woman, apparently). The second way, love is pure, like courtly love from the age of chivalry. I don't think Brienne has even imagined Jaime in bed yet. I'm not sure she will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, aromaticanalysis said:

@Nagini's Neville I think the 'marriage' foreshadowing is just (possible) foreshadowing for a romantic relationship, not an actual marriage. The Sansa/Sandor relationship is too inherently twisted to get a happy ending IMO. Re: Arya, her insecurities specifically revolve around being considered inferior to her sister for not being a 'proper lady' which is why I feel it would be traumatizing for her to see Jon in a romantic relationship with Sansa but not another woman. In her mind Jon is the only one who accepted her completely despite her tomboy personality. Him turning around and hooking up with Sansa is like confirmation that, wait no, your sister really is superior to you, even to the person you love most in the world. 

Hm, I don't really agree, but I don't think it will happen anyway. I think the way to get over that insecurity would not be "to keep Jon forever for herself". She must realize somehow that she is enough/perfect just the way she is :D. Maybe having long sisterly talks with Sansa, where they go through everything and apologize to one another could do the trick :D But as I said I don't think J+S will happen anyway, so they'll keep their very special relationship and I'm actually very excited to see it :D

But the hound/ sansa is not at all romantic symbolism, but straight up marriage (if the hound would be a high lord, it could also just be an arranged marriage. who knows maybe something weird happens and that will be the case) I'll make a list tomorrow to show you guys what I mean.

And of course I don't think the two ppl, that we saw interact in KL will be married. Sandor will be severely changed, when he comes back (The Hound is dead) and I believe will have a long redemption arc and Sansa will be an adult and gone though a lot of character development herself. I think they'll get married at the very end of ADOS (maybe even in the epilog) and maybe they won't have a big romance during most of the books at all, but it only happens at the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I always read "before leaving her for the dwarf" as "instead of leaving her for the dwarf".

 

oh then you really thought he wanted to rape and kill her? I'm confused now:huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I think it depends on what you define as a relationship when it comes Jon/Dany. If you mean them have sex and Jon ruthlessly using her for dragons in the battle for Dawn? Then yes. However if believe that they will fall in love and have a magical baby? Then no. There are a lot of hints that Jon will be Dany's betrayal for love. In the end it will be either one of them surviving. 

Wow that would be really cruel and unlike Jon imo. Just using her, like that? Maybe Jon would be the villain than and Dany just a victim. Ahhh. If he really comes back that changed, I dunno if i want him for Sansa. Seems like there would be "no Stark" left in him then

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

The Ashford Theory relies on the fact that Joffrey is perceived as a Baratheon, despite actually being a Lannister. fAegon is a Blackfyre but everyone will think he is a Targaryen, which is all that matters.

for the Ashford Theory there is also an Arryn missing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

Well, yes, but that doesn't mean the rest of the series will be Sansa wish-fulfilment where all her childhood dreams come true, either.

Why do you believe she won't? Is it because she isn't a lady in a song? Here is the interesting part, technically she IS in a song. After all this book series is called a song of ice and fire. So yes Sansa is a lady in a song and the probability she will get what she want with a twist is high. For all his deconstructing GRRM also reconstruct them. 

@Nagini's Neville GRRM did say that those that come back from the death are no longer the person they were before. We should expect Jon to be much darker and worse for wear. And what would make him much darker? For him to use any means necessary to keep his family and the North save. And it's not like he won't feel guilty about it. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Why do you believe she won't? Is it because she isn't a lady in a song? Here is the interesting part, technically she IS in a song. After all this book series is called a song of ice and fire. So yes Sansa is a lady in a song and the probability she will get what she want with a twist is high. For all his deconstructing GRRM also reconstruct them. 

The thing is, I think Sansa doesn't want what she wanted as an eleven years old anymore. And there are just no clues that Jon would want someone like Sansa. Up until now she was not exactly his type. And we don't even know what will happen with Jon. And we haven't even seen them interact once on page. It's really hard to judge, if you don't even have that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

 Why do you believe she won't? Is it because she isn't a lady in a song? Here is the interesting part, technically she IS in a song. After all this book series is called a song of ice and fire. So yes Sansa is a lady in a song and the probability she will get what she want with a twist is high. For all his deconstructing GRRM also reconstruct them. 

Yeah, but songs are sad and melancholy as often as they are happy. "Jenny's Song" is sad. The songs about Aemon and Naerys are presumably sad as well. On the topic at hand, a romantic Sansa/Sandor plot that ends in tragedy would definitely be worthy of a song. Personally I believe the meaning of a "Song" of Ice and Fire is that every major character in this series will ultimately be immortalized in song. Not that their lives will literally mirror a children's song. 

Edited by aromaticanalysis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

GRRM did say that those that come back from the death are no longer the person they were before. We should expect Jon to be much darker and worse for wear. And what would make him much darker? For him to use any means necessary to keep his family and the North save. And it's not like he won't feel guilty about it. 

Okay, that's fine. Might be exciting, but then I don't want him for sansa. It was already enough for me what he did to Gilly. Maybe in the end he'll be just as bad as the Hound :laugh: Who know? 

But imo Jon should die anyway, if he kills Dany, especially if she is his lover/wife and I think it would be utter nonsense, if the Dragons wouldn't just drop him somewhere after he killed their mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The thing is, I think Sansa doesn't want what she wanted as an eleven years old anymore. And there are just no clues that Jon would want someone like Sansa. Up until now she was not exactly his type. And we don't even know what will happen with Jon. And we haven't even seen them interact once on page. It's really hard to judge, if you don't even have that.

Yes Sansa's idea of an ideal knight does change a bit. Instead of an unrealistic knight she initially wanted Sansa now prefers someone who would defeat her enemies and cut off their heads, and Jon did just that (example: Janos slynt). Even in her more mature and darker view of a knight Jon fits the bill. The narrative backs up the claim that Jon is her one and true hero. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Yes Sansa's idea of an ideal knight does change a bit. Instead of an unrealistic knight she initially wanted Sansa now prefers someone who would defeat her enemies and cut off their heads, and Jon did just that (example: Janos slynt). Even in her more mature and darker view of a knight Jon fits the bill. The narrative backs up the claim that Jon is her one and true hero. 

Her "one and true hero?" How about Jaime and (especially) Brienne, who are intent on finding and 'rescuing' her? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×