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Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

:D They usually do.

Because a weak soft and cruel king was on the throne

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I'm thinking wildfire chemical weapons is the war crime. Burning the Vale would be another (because, proxy punishment, and, especially with winter coming, genocide).

Is that a war crime? Like napalm or agent orange, probably lol, I guess it should be.

But hes not like Assad with it, hes not using chemicals on his own people, not even in a offensive war like America in Vietnam.  Stannis has come to rape and murder like half of KL, burning the river is kinda the humane thing to do. 

I mean theres war crimes and war crimes, Robb pillaged the West of its cows and stuff, but did not put them all to the sword like Ramsay. Dany broke her word in the peace talks with Essos, but did rape and forcefeed the inhabitants themselves like Gregor. 

Tywin committed a war crime by burning Castamere, his son I dont think deserves the same title as he only burnt some fish as it was the only way to save his, the city and his kings life.

In regards to this Vale stuff, if Tyrion actually started the war and used Great Masters/Gregor like tactics then Id agree, but he didn't so I won't :)

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I think he's literally the hybrid son of Aerys and Tywin - so no surprise there's a lot of crazy thoughts racing through his head. Sometimes he catches them in time, sometimes not. Only actions count.

Lol, my cousin thinks the same thing. Like hows that possible? They tag teamed Joanna? Even then I don't understand. 

I think Tyrions mental instability has to do with his traumatic life, not his ancestors.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Dragging a bit nearer back to topic, Tyrion is such a pivotal character, I reckon his marriage to Sansa is pivotal too and will last (till death us do part, anyway). He too is a beast and protector; her little lion.

Yea, im of the belief that Sansas the main character in the series, while Tyrion is the second, I feel like theyre more important to the plot then any other character. (while Dany Jon and Bran have their own plot, if that makes sense) So yea, I agree, I think their marriage will be reinstated into the story

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4 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

Her "one and true hero?" How about Jaime and (especially) Brienne, who are intent on finding and 'rescuing' her? 

The more likely Stark girl that Jaime and Brienne will end up finding is Arya Stark. I expect them to meet each other during the second Red Wedding that will happen in TWOW. With Sansa I think she will flee from the Vale and meet Jon while he's in Ghost. 

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1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

Yes Sansa's idea of an ideal knight does change a bit. Instead of an unrealistic knight she initially wanted Sansa now prefers someone who would defeat her enemies and cut off their heads, and Jon did just that (example: Janos slynt). Even in her more mature and darker view of a knight Jon fits the bill. The narrative backs up the claim that Jon is her one and true hero. 

Even if Sansa wishes for "a hero" to chop off Slynt's head, that doesn't mean she wants to marry said hero. That actually would have been a good opportunity to put that in there. She could have thought: I want to marry a hero, who would chop off Slynt's head. Also she is still quite young at that time, that was in the beginning of clash. She has developed a lot since then. And she also wishes someone would fall of their horse and Joffrey would die and it happens... maybe that tells us something different about her... If Harry also falls of his horse, we know what's up :laugh:

I know you don't think Sandor Clegane is a suitable match for Sansa, but just compare that to her imagine kissing him 3 times and having a dream about him in her wedding night bed asking for a song, whatever the cause of that might be, those are clear non-platonic undertones or overtones. It's not like her wishing for something and then Jon does it. He is also her brother after all so it's actually nice to see some connections between them, but that in no way implies anything romantic. Romance would be: I'll kiss/marry that hero.

 

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8 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

The more likely Stark girl that Jaime and Brienne will end up finding is Arya Stark. I expect them to meet each other during the second Red Wedding that will happen in TWOW. With Sansa I think she will flee from the Vale and meet Jon while he's in Ghost

Well agree to disagree then because I think it's much more likely that Jaime and Brienne will encounter Sansa before they do Arya. I don't think Arya will be anywhere near the Red Wedding 2.0 when it happens. 

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

oh then you really thought he wanted to rape and kill her? I'm confused now:huh:

Whoops, sorry! That was a bit confusing!

I think Sandor is saying that if he had fucked her bloody and torn her heart out, then that would have been a kinder fate for her than the one that he left her to because he failed (due to drunkenness, fire trauma and inability to talk nicely) to persuade her to leave with him. Instead, he left her behind and look what happened to her, because of him.

(I also don't think he meant the rape/murder bit literally.)

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3 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Whoops, sorry! That was a bit confusing!

I think Sandor is saying that if he had fucked her bloody and torn her heart out, then that would have been a kinder fate for her than the one that he left her to because he failed (due to drunkenness, fire trauma and inability to talk nicely) to persuade her to leave with him. Instead, he left her behind and look what happened to her, because of him.

(I also don't think he meant the rape/murder bit literally.)

Ah :D okay we agree. Then "before" is actually still the right word and not "instead" imo. Actually it's really all in the text imo, if ppl would just read carefully they would never assume he wanted to rape or kill her.

He is talking/crying about all of his regrets he has towards her: Not being able to protect her better, taking the song, leaving her there.

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1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I think you missed the entire point of Sansa's arc. The lesson Sansa is supposed to learn isn't 'life isn't a song' but rather in the face of adversity you should uphold the values and ideals you learned from the songs and inspire others to do the same. There's a reason why her interactions with Sandor ended up with him eventually caving into her and feeling ashamed about his behavior towards her. He cried in his 'last moments' because despite his hatred for knights he was in many ways no different from them. The underlying message of their interaction was about a battle of ideologies: idealism vs. nihilism. We all know what won in the end. That is why Sansa is a beautiful and powerful character. Even though there were people trying to break her spirit (Cersei & Sandor) she persevered. 

I don't think I've missed it at all & one of the life lessons Sansa had to learn the hard way IS that life isn't a song, because it isn't. A second moral to the story is to be the person you want to be seen as because for all of the beautifulness in Sansa she started out as a pretty self-centered, arrogant, child. 

She definitely has a strong spirit & it is part of her pureness & naivety that breaks Sandor but I think if you are ignoring the fact that Sansa had to be woken to reality it may be you missing the point my friend. 

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49 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

Well agree to disagree then because I think it's much more likely that Jaime and Brienne will encounter Sansa before they do Arya. I don't think Arya will be anywhere near the Red Wedding 2.0 when it happens. 

I am 100% sure Arya will be there to witness a second Red Wedding. Lady Stoneheart is deeply connected to her narrative. Not only does she need to kill the monster she created, but also facing it would make her come to terms that her quest for revenge is not the path she should be walking on. She needs to face her mom and give her mercy of death. And since Jaime and Brienne are right now in the Riverlands and them witnessing the red wedding is practically given the probability they will meet is very high. 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar There's a difference between Sansa coming to terms with the different shades of grey in life rather than rigidly believing black and white and accepting that 'life isn't a song.' The first one is Sansa getting mature and facing the reality of the world. The second one is about breaking the essence of Sansa Stark. Her belief in song isn't just about her living in la la Land, but also her desire to hope that things can be better. More than any character Sansa represents the morals and ideals of ASOIAF. In that light we need to ask ourselves. What is the more likely moral of the story called a song of ice and fire: 'life isn't a song' or 'we're all just song in the end. If we are lucky?'

 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion is such a pivotal character, I reckon his marriage to Sansa is pivotal too and will last (till death us do part, anyway). He too is a beast and protector; her little lion.

So much depends on whether Tyrion is fated to flame out or survive as part of the new world!  If Husband Tyrion arrives on dragonback to remind everyone Sansa is spoken for, Sandor will not be his hound anymore but Sansa's Urban Direwolf, non-magical, and will not give a flaming poop about Tyr's claim on the lady he's protecting.  So their meeting could be tres interesante.   And would Tyrion be arriving to deliver the dragon to Aegon's camp, having betrayed Stormy and now intent on renewing his relationship with Griff's riverboat crew?   Or would he be there to rescue Sansa from the Stormborn assault already in motion upon KL?   Could Sansa be faced with a decision between two beastmen with fucked up faces, like an anti-pageant?

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

oh then you really thought he wanted to rape and kill her? I'm confused now:huh:

Sandor is saying it would have been more humane if they'd done the romeo and juliette thing and burned bright & died instead of leaving sansa to suffer on and on.  And because neither sandor nor sansa consider him worthy of her, he couldn't imagine that the tryst would be consensual.   

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

The more likely Stark girl that Jaime and Brienne will end up finding is Arya Stark. I expect them to meet each other during the second Red Wedding that will happen in TWOW. With Sansa I think she will flee from the Vale and meet Jon while he's in Ghost. 

I foresee a Jaime/ Brienne /Sansa meetup, but I add in Stoneheart , Petyr , and Walder for a good satisfying riverlands roundtable resolution scene at the (burning) Twins.   The thing about Arya needing to see Stoneheart to change her path from revenge is wonderful.... could it also be done in consecutive chapters with Arya halfway around the world?  Stoneheart fully commits to her quest and finishes it by burning up in the fire she lit, while Arya is then shown mirroring Catelyn's descent so much we really get worried, then Arya manages to pull out of the dive into hell at the last second, maybe with some touching memory miracle proof that she is in fact someone after all.  Eh.  I kinda expect her to die.  She seems too direct a competitor to accept anything less.

But this red wedding 2: the sequel?  I can't follow you guys there.  It's too.....  symmetrical... for this world.  Too unoriginal to use a second time around as a major event.  Why would Freys ever ever ever ever fall for a wedding betrayal at this point.  You'd have to imagine it's very much on their radar as something to avoid chancing.   And they're dropping at an impressive clip without any gala death wedding needed. 

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I am 100% sure Arya will be there to witness a second Red Wedding. Lady Stoneheart is deeply connected to her narrative. Not only does she need to kill the monster she created, but also facing it would make her come to terms that her quest for revenge is not the path she should be walking on. She needs to face her mom and give her mercy of death. And since Jaime and Brienne are right now in the Riverlands and them witnessing the red wedding is practically given the probability they will meet is very high. 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar There's a difference between Sansa coming to terms with the different shades of grey in life rather than rigidly believing black and white and accepting that 'life isn't a song.' The first one is Sansa getting mature and facing the reality of the world. The second one is about breaking the essence of Sansa Stark. Her belief in song isn't just about her living in la la Land, but also her desire to hope that things can be better. More than any character Sansa represents the morals and ideals of ASOIAF. In that light we need to ask ourselves. What is the more likely moral of the story called a song of ice and fire: 'life isn't a song' or 'we're all just song in the end. If we are lucky?'

 

Maybe through the eyes of Nymeria. I highly, highly doubt she will be physically present for RW 2.0. I also see no reason why Sansa would go north so soon. There's no outlet up there for her newfound political skills.

Re: songs, once again songs are often melancholy. "Being a song in the end" doesn't imply that Sansa (or anyone) gets an ending that fulfils all her childhood dreams.

As for who best represents the morals and ideals of ASOIAF... that person is clearly Brienne, not Sansa IMO. "No chance, and no choice" is hands down the most heroic act in all the books. 

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21 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I am 100% sure Arya will be there to witness a second Red Wedding. Lady Stoneheart is deeply connected to her narrative. Not only does she need to kill the monster she created, but also facing it would make her come to terms that her quest for revenge is not the path she should be walking on. She needs to face her mom and give her mercy of death. And since Jaime and Brienne are right now in the Riverlands and them witnessing the red wedding is practically given the probability they will meet is very high. 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar There's a difference between Sansa coming to terms with the different shades of grey in life rather than rigidly believing black and white and accepting that 'life isn't a song.' The first one is Sansa getting mature and facing the reality of the world. The second one is about breaking the essence of Sansa Stark. Her belief in song isn't just about her living in la la Land, but also her desire to hope that things can be better. More than any character Sansa represents the morals and ideals of ASOIAF. In that light we need to ask ourselves. What is the more likely moral of the story called a song of ice and fire: 'life isn't a song' or 'we're all just song in the end. If we are lucky?'

 

Life isn't a song. Period. She was in la la Land to the point that she betrayed her own family because she believed in this happily ever after. Continuing on that path would have gotten her killed. I said nothing of rigidly believing everything is black & white & that isn't what I mean. Sansa's mentality was a detriment to her & her family. 

Of course she hopes things can be better & that hope is partially what keeps her alive, I'm not downplaying that. She had to learn a rough, hard lesson though to understand that what she believed was not reality. 

I don't think Sansa represents the morals & ideals of the story more than any other character & there are several morals to this story if we're being honest. Sansa's morals start out as not so great. Kinda awful actually. She gets some leeway because she was a kid but there were several other kids, raised along side her, by the same parents, that didn't have the same self-entitled, holier than thou, attitude so part of the blame most certainly lies with Sansa herself. 

She had to be humbled & man-handled into reality because she didn't have the time to be eased into it. Things got real bad, real fast for her & anything short of shocking her wouldn't have done the trick.

I'm not saying this is the only thing important in her storyline but that it is a huge part of who she is & what she will become. 

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On 15. Oktober 2019 at 8:41 PM, Springwatch said:

But also there are other couples that might be categorised as Beauty + Beast: Dany and Jorah, Jaime and Brienne, perhaps others, maybe Arianne and Hotah. The bond is love in every case, but romance is not getting a foothold anywhere.

Yes, I agree, but what I am talking about is not just "one very attractive" and "one very ugly person" being "paired up", but the Hound's and Sansa's story arc/structure and overall themes, both as a pair and as individuals, resemble very closely the ones of the Beast's and the Beauty's in the original fairytale. And that is not the case for those other beauty and the beast characters. 

I have already seen some of the other posts and they are terrific :) 

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5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, my cousin thinks the same thing. Like hows that possible? They tag teamed Joanna? Even then I don't understand. 

 

It can happen when one fraternal twin "consumes" the other. It does happen in real life though it is very rare. Joanna already had one set of fraternal twins in Jaime and Cersei, and while tag teaming wouldn't be literally necessary, they'd probably have to have slept with her pretty close together time-wise. It would be an explanation for Tyrion's heterochromia and having both blonde and dark hair. There was a real-life instance where a woman was in the hospital for something and she found through testing that her children weren't biologically hers though she gave birth to them. Turns out she had the ovaries of her absorbed fraternal twin sister. Think the phenomena is called vanishing twins.

https://time.com/3851843/twins-complications/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4564494/Model-fused-twin-sister-womb.html

Aerys' and Tywin's sons duking it out in Joanna's womb is especially appropriate given their rivalry for Joanna and their best buddies to frenemies backstory.

Back to the topic...I don't really get why Hound/Sansa gets so much focus when the Hound was as much Arya's protector as he was Sansa's. He's had a massive influence on both girls.

Edited by Lollygag

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24 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It can happen when one fraternal twin "consumes" the other. It does happen in real life though it is very rare. Joanna already had one set of fraternal twins in Jaime and Cersei, and while tag teaming wouldn't be literally necessary, they'd probably have to have slept with her pretty close together time-wise. It would be an explanation for Tyrion's heterochromia and having both blonde and dark hair. There was a real-life instance where a woman was in the hospital for something and she found through testing that her children weren't biologically hers though she gave birth to them. Turns out she had the ovaries of her absorbed fraternal twin sister. Think the phenomena is called vanishing twins.

https://time.com/3851843/twins-complications/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4564494/Model-fused-twin-sister-womb.html

Aerys' and Tywin's sons duking it out in Joanna's womb is especially appropriate given their rivalry for Joanna and their best buddies to frenemies backstory.

I don't mind the idea of this but how would this come to light in Westeros? They don't have the medical capability to prove Tyrion has some of Aerys in him - which is what this scenario would require. If it can't be told what's the point? 

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Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't mind the idea of this but how would this come to light in Westeros? They don't have the medical capability to prove Tyrion has some of Aerys in him - which is what this scenario would require. If it can't be told what's the point? 

I don't expect that it will even if he does ride a dragon.

A lot of things in the story will never get a proper explanation and GRRM seems to like that sort of thing as he likes the reader to hash it out for themselves without spelling it out for us. In Tyrion's case, it's probably what @Hugorfonics implied: we're supposed to wonder what's nature and what's nurture when it comes to Tyrion.

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12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Back to the topic...I don't really get why Hound/Sansa gets so much focus when the Hound was as much Arya's protector as he was Sansa's. He's had a massive influence on both girls.

He has, but I believe his actions towards Arya were a(n indirect or subconscious) result to his failure towards Sansa. I do believe he developed feelings for her, and that those feelings were the beginning of the end for the Hound, specially after the battle of the Blackwater. Same way, I believe Sansa's feelings for him are not even a hint but an obvious and intrinsical part of her development as a woman. It's been hinted by GRRM that there's something in store for them, and I'm a complete supporter of their love+sexual awakening theory. Their topic has been thoroughly examined in other splendid discussions. I wish for a sort of happy ending between them, as I don't support the opinion that everything in ASoIaF is doom and death and dispair... Many will end up badly, but some others won't. Their storylines converging is one of the things I'm looking forward the most in TWoW, to be honest.

 

I've seen some of you commenting on a ''RW 2.0'' and I'm a bit lost. Is this a theory? Is there an existing topic on it in the forum? I don't see how it links to their storyline. Which, on that line, I don't think Tyrion will ever set foot on the Vale ever again. What could he possibly have to do back there? The Vale will be one of the main chessboards in TWoW, fact, but I don't see Tyrion's journey leading him to that game.

Edited by iberiandirewolf

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12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Back to the topic...I don't really get why Hound/Sansa gets so much focus when the Hound was as much Arya's protector as he was Sansa's. He's had a massive influence on both girls.

Yes, but in Arya's case there are a lot of other important ppl in her life. For sure he had an influence on Arya as well, but their relationship was never really the buddy-buddy adventure story, that the show made it out to be. 

She never tells him anything personal and neither does he. But with Sansa he constantly shares all kinds of personal information out of the blue.

And also sadly Sansa just doesn't have anyone else, Arya has a lot of ppl throughout her journey + wolf dreams, Sansa just really only has the hound and ... LF lol

And on top of that there is the mystery aspect to it as well. So many things are unresolved and unexplained, when it comes to Sansa and Sandor, that is apparent, when we look at the vastly different opinions, that ppl have on them. And also the fact that he still "appears" in Sansa/Alayne chapters even though they haven't interacted since two books.

If Arya would think about the Hound that often, maybe ppl would pay as much attention. Even though imo, there are a lot of ppl, who actually do.

 

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On 10/19/2019 at 11:22 AM, Elegant Woes said:

They are the heart and heroes of this story. What would be a happy ending for Sansa and Jon in specific? To get what the wanted from the beginning. Sansa wanted to experience true love with her knight and/or prince and have children with him. Jon wanted to be a Stark, to have Winterfell, marry a highborn lady, and have children with her. They would get that with each other. Their dreams fit together perfectly. I don't think that this is a coincidence on GRRM's part. 

Completely agree and GRRM would be a fool to drop the ball on this since a hidden Targaryen having uncontrolled feelings for a sibling is hilarious; the Jonsa connections are interesting; and every other man in Sansa's life is a disgusting piece of shit.  Sad to say though: if Jon is going to be a raging dumbass and fall for the female Stalin with a dragon fetish, then he doesn't deserve Sansa. I think Jonsa has a lot of potential to be canon in a "what might have been" way. The fact that GRRM wrote in Starkcest with a cousin reveal in the original outline makes me think it will be bittersweet with suppressed feelings, longing, and regret.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 10/19/2019 at 5:21 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, I agree, but what I am talking about is not just "one very attractive" and "one very ugly person" being "paired up", but the Hound's and Sansa's story arc/structure and overall themes, both as a pair and as individuals, resemble very closely the ones of the Beast's and the Beauty's in the original fairytale

I see little resemblance; the original tale is more of a foil, since the Beast in Villenueve's original manages to enchant the girl with mild manners, courtesy, and gentlemanly ways. The Hound is exactly the opposite of this and also has nothing to do with GRRM's own created Beast, Vincent, and his love of poetry. I don't think Sandor is a positive BATB figure in the sense of ending anywhere remotely romantic or good for Sansa. Sandor is more like the bully in the Disney version, which I believe GRRM criticized.

The Disney version of BatB came out on 1991, the same year GRRM started writing ASOIAF and one year after his own BatB show ended. I can see how the Disney movie would have pissed him off. Just guessing here, but he may have wanted to show readers how such a dynamic actually works in reality. If the man is abusive, you can't fix him. He'll just become more and more abusive until you cut him out of your life. And this is how GRRM appears to be writing all of Sansa's figures so far, as an in-text critique of the Disney version of the BatB beast trope. Since he loves the original versions of fairy tales, he would need to hew closely to the original by having men who look beastly but are, at their core, kind. And they also dont need to "discover" kindness, they should just be naturally that way, which Sandor is not. Sansa shouldnt be a workhorse to "fix" a man. Likewise, Sandor shouldn't be "fixing" Sansa since the act of changing--and not accepting--(and some would say mocking) the other person is toxic for all relationships.

On 10/19/2019 at 2:52 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Of course she hopes things can be better & that hope is partially what keeps her alive, I'm not downplaying that. She had to learn a rough, hard lesson though to understand that what she believed was not reality. 

She needs to hold on to the songs and stories though, they are what make people feel alive and human. GRRM probably sides with her love of them since he obviously lives through them as well. I think he takes pity on Sansa for having her face "reality." Calling it a lesson doesn't sit right with me because the story explores the merging of fantasy with reality (where does one end and the other begin?), which seems more like a paradox that he's playing with. She is the best character to explore that IMO. Some things like being a "detriment" to her family, could also be Arya for ignoring class lines, and Jon could be put in a similar spot too later on.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 10/19/2019 at 2:52 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She had to be humbled & man-handled into reality because she didn't have the time to be eased into it. 

I dont agree that it was written so that she needed to be humbled. She is never bitter about her downgrade in status. She's bitter and filled with rage for what's been done to her family. In relation to herself, she is more upset about being forced into a marriage against her will; she hates how they "made her a Lannister" which is understandable, and she is not yet aware that her own "teacher" screwed her over. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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