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LadyOfCastamere

Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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25 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I see little resemblance; the original tale is more of a foil, since the Beast in Villenueve's original manages to enchant the girl with mild manners, courtesy, and gentlemanly ways. The Hound is exactly the opposite of this and also has nothing to do with GRRM's own created Beast, Vincent, and his love of poetry. I don't think Sandor is a positive BATB figure in the sense of ending anywhere remotely romantic or good for Sansa. Sandor is more like the bully in the Disney version, which I believe GRRM criticized.

The Disney version of BatB came out on 1991, the same year GRRM started writing ASOIAF and one year after his own BatB show ended. I can see how the Disney movie would have pissed him off. Just guessing here, but he may have wanted to show readers how such a dynamic actually works in reality. If the man is abusive, you can't fix him. He'll just become more and more abusive until you cut him out of your life. And this is how GRRM appears to be writing all of Sansa's figures so far, as an in-text critique of the Disney version of the BatB beast trope.

I did not say the Hound is exactly like the beast from the og fairytale. Of course GRRM did create his own version of the beast. The story structure and the themes for both Sansa and Sandor are the same. And of course the og Beast IS abusive btw. The Beast wants to kill her father and she agrees to go to the beast and die for her father and than the beast basically holds her prisoner. 

But I also think GRRM did modeled it mainly after La Belle et la Bete (1946) from Cocteau, which is based on the og fairytale of course. So if you have watched that, then we can talk again. 

And no, it is not a one on one copy, that would be plagiarism. And yes there are differences between the Hound and the beast. GRRM did create his own character and also needed him to be a realistic human being. And the Beast is not only beastly on the outside, but he kills ppl: in GRRM's 80s show (even though he reads poetry) and in La Belle et la Bete and has to fight with his "beastly" side. But those are also PG versions, so the Beasts couldn't be too out of control. But Cocteau finds creative ways to still imply, that the la Bete is violent.

He threatens to kill la Belle and imprisons her. So he does a lot of bad stuff. And if you do a bit of research, you'll find that GRRM really likes "La Belle et la Bete". There's even a picture of Sansa and the Hound, that looks like "La Belle et la bete" s movie poster.

He also said he likes the Disney version, even though the Little Mermaid is his favorite Disney movie.

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29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont agree that it was written so that she needed to be humbled. She is never bitter about her downgrade in status. She's bitter and filled with rage for what's been done to her family. In relation to herself, she is more upset about being forced into a marriage against her will; she hates how they "made her a Lannister" which is understandable, and she is not yet aware that her own "teacher" screwed her over. 

I don't think Sansa ever looked at the Hound as a teacher. I think she did take a lot of his advise to heart and used it for her purposes, and after a while she saw some good qualities in him, but she wasn't blind to the complexity of his character. She knew better then most what kind of a person he is. And for the most part of Clash she didn't trust him.

Why does everyone seems to think she is stupid, why would she be afraid of him, if she clearly saw him as a teacher and protector. Why didn't she then just go to him, ask him for help instead of Ser Dontos? 

The special thing about Sansa is, that she is able to recognize the good in him and appreciate what he has done for her, without ignoring the dangerous and bad side of him and perceiving that as a very realistic threat. She has a good sense for self-preservation.

 

The scars are not the worst part, nor even the way his mouth twitches. It’s his eyes. She had never seen eyes so full of anger.

“Why are you always so hateful?

The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you’ve done.”

“You’re awful.”

“there’s no man on earth I need fear.” Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters.

She was afraid of Sandor Clegane … and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound’s ferocity.

toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

 

Being a true knight, for Sansa, implies having a certain set of values and she knows Sandor doesn't have those. She is not oblivious to his nature. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And of course the og Beast IS abusive btw. The Beast wants to kill her father and she agrees to go to the beast and die for her father and than the beast basically holds her prisoner

Yes, I have seen the Cocteau version and my point still stands. The film and the original are opposites to what is happening in the Sandor/Sansa and Tyrion/Sansa scenes. For example, in the film he tries to soothe Beauty's fear; Sandor wants to scare the shit out of her. The Beast tells her she shouldnt look in his eyes and tries to calm her; Sandor forces him to look at her just like Tyrion does. ALL of it is a juxtaposition to romance; thus it is aromantic. In the og story, the Beast asks for her consent and requests that the father be honest with his daughter about who he is. Tyrion and Sandor do the opposite of this, and dont really respect her wishes. They are both also called villains by the author. You can tell they don't give a fig about what Sansa wants, and they're thinking primarily of their own selfish needs. The Beast says to her father, "let her be free to choose" whether to come to him or not. Neither Sandor and Tyrion are good enough for her in this respect. Sandor is an evil man, romantic love is the last thing he needs (he needs an AA meeting), and he definitely isn't transforming from a beast into a prince. It fits exactly what the author has said about his surprise at the "San/San" thing.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 10/19/2019 at 1:04 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Yes Sansa's idea of an ideal knight does change a bit. Instead of an unrealistic knight she initially wanted Sansa now prefers someone who would defeat her enemies and cut off their heads, and Jon did just that (example: Janos slynt). Even in her more mature and darker view of a knight Jon fits the bill. The narrative backs up the claim that Jon is her one and true hero. 

Yes, Jon would do anything for his sisters. ANYTHING. Jon making sacrifices to save one sister is already canon. I'm sure there will be another for Sansa. If that's where the Jonsa foreshadowing goes, I'll be very interested to see it.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And they also dont need to "discover" kindness, they should just be naturally that way, which Sandor is not. Sansa shouldnt be a workhorse to "fix" a man. Likewise, Sandor shouldn't be "fixing" Sansa since the act of changing--and not accepting--(and some would say mocking) the other person is toxic for all relationships.

She doesn't change or fix him. That's what the elder brother does. And he doesn't need to "discover kindness", but he needs some treatment for his childhood trauma and sadly not everyone can be naturally that way, because some ppl have gone through some bad shit. Of course that doesn't mean that Sansa should be exposed to his violent behavior and that's why she isn't anymore. 

And I also don't think he wanted to fix Sansa for a second. He likes her the way she is, that's why he felt drawn to her. In the beginning he just wanted to help and warn her, but then he also tried to protect himself and his world view, because she was getting under his skin, with her stoic insistence to continue to believe in the goodness in ppl and a higher morality. Not all me are true knights, but they do exist. And why shouldn't she believe that, since her father was one himself.

 The Hound was experiencing an Identity crisis and for someone with the his background and problems that can be a very scary and threatening experience.

He had divided the world into predators and victims, and had sworn himself to never be a victim again. And then along comes Sansa and says it doesn't have to be that way and leads by example. 

For the Hound the way how he has survived this world until now is threatened and his explanations for why, what has happened to him as a child did happen, starts to crumble. And he doesn't know how to deal with it. He is lost

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18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Hound was experiencing an Identity crisis and for someone with the his background and problems that can be a very scary and threatening experience.

He had divided the world into predators and victims, and had sworn himself to never be a victim again. And then along comes Sansa and says it doesn't have to be that way and leads by example. 

For the Hound the way how he has survived this world until now is threatened and his explanations for why, what has happened to him as a child did happen, starts to crumble. And he doesn't know how to deal with it. He is lost

I can tell you care and respect Sansa's character which is great, but I'm just not into psychoanalyzing Sandor that much. Mainly because I dont care about him. If he dies, oh well. The Elder Brother's speech refers to him directly, and tells me all I need to know. I dont find it that deep. I disagree that Sansa has changed him that much (and she shouldn't have to) and having to actually pretend to be Arya's father seems more crucial. But again....dont care.

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35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, I have seen the Cocteau version and my point still stands. The film and the original are opposites to what is happening in the Sandor/Sansa and Tyrion/Sansa scenes. For example, in the film he tries to soothe Beauty's fear; Sandor wants to scare the shit out of her. The Beast tells her she shouldnt look in his eyes and tries to calm her; Sandor forces him to look at her just like Tyrion does. ALL of it is a juxtoposition to romance; thus it is aromantic. In the og story, the Beast asks for her consent and requests that the father be honest with his daughter about who he is. Tyrion and Sandor do the opposite of this, and dont really respect her wishes. They are both also called villains by the author. You can tell they don't give a fig about what Sansa wants, and they're thinking primarily of their own selfish needs. The Beast says to her father, "let her be free to choose" whether to come to him or not. Neither Sandor and Tyrion are good enough for her in this respect. Sandor is an evil man, romantic love is the last thing he needs (he needs an AA meeting), and he definitely isn't transforming from a beast into a prince. It fits exactly what the author has said about his surprise at the "San/San" thing.

Oh, come on, how "free to choose" can she be, if he is going to kill her father, if she doesn't come to him? This is classic blackmailing. And on top of that in Cocteau's version, the beast says to the father: "You must die, except, if one of your daughters is willing to take your place and die for you." So he is threatening to kill her and she goes to the beast thinking she is going to die.

So you think the Beast respects her wishes by imprisoning her? So you think the beast doesn't primarily thinks about his own selfish needs, when he blackmails her into staying with him so her love could break his curse? HE IS PRIMARILY USING HER TO BREAK HIS CURSE Keeping her from experiencing life outside his castle and choosing freely for herself, what to do with her life?  And when she desperately wants to see her father again, because she misses him so much, he doesn't allow it right away, but only, after she has fallen ill. Real selfless yeah.

And what exactly does the Hound gain in "his selfish ways" from saving and protecting her again and again, from giving her advice, how to best navigate Joffrey? What's in it for him, when he doesn't care for her as a person? She is the King's betrothed at that time, she is going to marry Joffrey.

Sure Tyrion gets a pretty wife and perhaps WF, but the Hound can never hope for something like that and neither does he care about WF. 

And GRRM wants his story to be surprising, so he probably doesn't like it, when readers figure out to much to quickly. But he has said before "there is something there" and he has "played with it". He really only was surprised about the Hound's popularity.

And that's probably because he wanted him to be a proper beast, that was more feared than loved.

 

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38 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I can tell you care and respect Sansa's character which is great, but I'm just not into psychoanalyzing Sandor that much. Mainly because I dont care about him. If he dies, oh well. The Elder Brother's speech refers to him directly, and tells me all I need to know. I dont find it that deep. I disagree that Sansa has changed him that much (and she shouldn't have to) and having to actually pretend to be Arya's father seems more crucial. But again....dont care.

No, she hasn't changed him (and it's not her job). She has triggered something within him, that was already there ( he idealized the True Knight as a kid, just like she did) But he doesn't know how to deal with that and doesn't know how to take care of it. That's why he needs a professional- the elder brother lol

To fix him is not Sansa's job and also not realistic. It's not their story. It's quite the opposite, she rejects him the way he is and strongly rejects his violence and protects herself from it, which is good.

I don't know, if his story is so deep or not, it's the the story of a lot of ppl: He was a victim and in his effort to survive and protect himself he became a predator himself, because that was the only example given to him how to survive.

I also don't think the two ppl, we see in KL will get together, they both will be very changed (changed on their own). And I only believe that, because of the symbolism and the way GRRM writes about it, not so much, because of their actual interactions.

I love Sansa, she is my absolute favorite character next to Brienne and if she and Jon suddenly fall madly in love, they have my full support. But only if Jon treats her right. And I only would be okay with Sandor, if he is very changed and also would treat her right and she really 100% wants to be with him.

I'd also support Sansa, if she somehow gets out of marrying at all or turns out to be bi or whatever. As long as she is happy and healthy and safe, everything would be fine ( and maybe that's already to much to ask)

And btw I can absolutely understand, why you wouldn't like Sansa and Sandor, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why and that's totally fine. Everyone can have their favorite characters and predictions for the future.

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18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And GRRM wants his story to be surprising, so he probably doesn't like it, when readers figure out to much to quickly. But he has said before "there is something there" and he has "played with it". He really only was surprised about the Hound's popularity.

Unfortunately, these lines are taken out of context because the whole interview is about how he is surprised that people ship these two characters. Then there is another interview where he repeats it more bluntly: "I guess I was surprised by the number of women who reacted positively to characters like Theon and the Hound as dashing romantic figures. The SanSan kind of thing took me by surprise." Yeah, me too? 

Him saying he's "Playing with it" only confirms my point that he is writing this as a foil to the actual BATB, by including Joffrey and Tyrion as well, and using all 3 of them to break down the story into tropes to subvert them. Subversion meaning again...its not a love story or a fairy tale. Joffrey is the handsome prince who is anything but, Tyrion doesnt ask for Sansa's consent, and Sandor is just a beast without the kindness or chivalry. The original DOES have this, and the audience has a "faulty archetype" of the story, as explained in this essay In other words, he's working through a subversion of the original by making it unromantic. And you keep mentioning how Sandor saved her...I think thats way off the mark and romanticizes a shit person all over again. Joffrey may be a subversion of the original Beast because he's the handom prince who threatens (and actually kills) her father...meanwhile, Sandor THREATENS TO KILL HER HIMSELF?? How is this better?? "If you scream, I'll kill you" is something the original Beast would never say to Belle. Sansa is just so beaten down by this point, it comes across as cruel. 

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4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And you keep mentioning how Sandor saved her...I think thats way off the mark and romanticizes a shit person all over again.

No, that's just stating facts. And I only mentioned it once, because you stated the Hound was using her for his own selfish needs. 

I asked you what his own selfish needs would be and why in your opinion it would serve his own selfish needs to protect her? And you haven't given me an answer- wouldn't have brought it up otherwise.

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11 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"If you scream, I'll kill you" is something the original Beast would never say to Belle. Sansa is just so beaten down by this point, it comes across as cruel. 

No, but Cocteau's beast threatens to kill her from the start and holds her prisoner. And he is really "using" her, while I am still failing to see how exactly the Hound is using her. And you still haven't explained it to me.

Cocteau's beast is also abusive, just in a different way, but not less severe.

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No, that's just stating facts. And I only mentioned it once, because you stated the Hound was using her for his own selfish needs. 

I asked you what his own selfish needs would be and why in your opinion it would serve his own selfish needs to protect her? And you haven't given me an answer- wouldn't have brought it up otherwise.

Perhaps his selfish need to scare and frighten a 13 year old, hold a knife to her throat, demand she sing for him like she's a whore on stage, not to mention the expectation that he can just enter her private chambers and lie in her bed, like he expects her to fuck him. A true protector would stand OUTSIDE her door and never even touch her himself. I dont know how Maribald's speech couldnt be more clear: Sandor was a man fleeing a battle and such men rape women. Point. Blank. Refers to the Hound while talking about it. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, Jon would do anything for his sisters. ANYTHING. Jon making sacrifices to save one sister is already canon. I'm sure there will be another for Sansa. If that's where the Jonsa foreshadowing goes, I'll be very interested to see it.

And how do you know that? Did he rush to fArya's side, when he heard of her wedding. Jon has proven himself already pretty ruthless as the Lord Commander. What he did to Gilly was beyond cruel. 

He is very similar to Robb, how do you know that he won't prioritize the Night's Watch, honor, the greater good over his sisters? 

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6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont know how Maribald's speech couldnt be more clear: Sandor was a man fleeing a battle and such men rape women. Point. Blank. Refers to the Hound while talking about it. 

He doesn't know the Hound. And Jaime doesn't think he is capable of acts like that. And also wouldn't such a predator not jump at the chance to beat Sansa like the other kingsguards? The Hound just isn't as black as you try to paint him.

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On 10/19/2019 at 1:29 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Romance would be: I'll kiss/marry that hero.

The only man who gets her tummy in a flutter, who she wants to kiss, and who she enthusiastically fantasizes about is Loras Tyrell. Maybe Willas too. She also had a crush on Waymar back in the day. But she has a classic attraction to Loras, who flatly rejects her. Fantasizing or lusting after the Hound? Sorry, dont see it. Her pulse doesnt race, she doesn't stammer like a school girl, and she has no attraction to him. She just thinks flatly, he kissed me (when he did the OPPOSITE), and he left me with a cloak. It's quite sad actually, she is desperate to put this cold situation in a better light, probably for her own SANITY. What a romance, eh? 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont agree that it was written so that she needed to be humbled. She is never bitter about her downgrade in status. She's bitter and filled with rage for what's been done to her family. In relation to herself, she is more upset about being forced into a marriage against her will; she hates how they "made her a Lannister" which is understandable, and she is not yet aware that her own "teacher" screwed her over. 

I don't think the result of being humbled is bitterness. Technically she hasn't been downgraded in status but upgraded. She went from a Lord's daughter to the betrothed of the heir. She actually is pretty bitter when Ned tells her they are going back to WF & that Joffrey is not a good match. Prior to her experiences in KL she is arrogant & entitled & it does her character justice to be humbled. More than that though it has kept her alive. There is not a doubt in my mind that had she not been humbled one way or another she would not have made it out of KL alive so I disagree, it was absolutely written that she needed to be humbled. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The only man who gets her tummy in a flutter, who she wants to kiss, and who she enthusiastically fantasizes about is Loras Tyrell. Maybe Willas too. She also had a crush on Waymar back in the day. But she has a classic attraction to Loras, who flatly rejects her. Fantasizing or lusting after the Hound? Sorry, dont see it. Her pulse doesnt race, she doesn't stammer like a school girl, and she has no attraction to him. She just thinks flatly, he kissed me (when he did the OPPOSITE), and he left me with a cloak. It's quite sad actually, she is desperate to put this cold situation in a better light, probably for her own SANITY. What a romance, eh? 

when I wrote that. I wasn't referring to the Sandor thing. Just making an overly simplified example, what could be romantic foreshadowing for Jon and Sansa. I wasn't more creative- sorry. I was just writing, that Jon executing Janos, after Sansa wished for it, just doesn't foreshadow a romantic future for them. If there was some marriage/ romance symbolism- fine. But why would any parallels or connections between Sansa and Jon, that are not explicitly romantic hint at anything more than a sibling relationship? I just don't get it! My brother is also a hero for me.

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21 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The only man who gets her tummy in a flutter, who she wants to kiss, and who she enthusiastically fantasizes about is Loras Tyrell. Maybe Willas too. She also had a crush on Waymar back in the day. But she has a classic attraction to Loras, who flatly rejects her. Fantasizing or lusting after the Hound? Sorry, dont see it. Her pulse doesnt race, she doesn't stammer like a school girl, and she has no attraction to him. She just thinks flatly, he kissed me (when he did the OPPOSITE), and he left me with a cloak. It's quite sad actually, she is desperate to put this cold situation in a better light, probably for her own SANITY. What a romance, eh? 

And I'm not saying she is in love with the sandor yet. I'm thinking it will happen, because of the marriage symbolism.  And why do you reckon, she keeps his cloak in her cedar chest, which was used by women in preparation for marriage? why do you thinks she keeps it at all?

She sure still thinks about Sandor a lot. He appears in all of her 22 chapters except for 3, more than any other character. While Jon...

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34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think the result of being humbled is bitterness. Technically she hasn't been downgraded in status but upgraded. She went from a Lord's daughter to the betrothed of the heir. She actually is pretty bitter when Ned tells her they are going back to WF & that Joffrey is not a good match. Prior to her experiences in KL she is arrogant & entitled & it does her character justice to be humbled. More than that though it has kept her alive. There is not a doubt in my mind that had she not been humbled one way or another she would not have made it out of KL alive so I disagree, it was absolutely written that she needed to be humbled. 

I think she needed to SEE better, that's quite different than clinging to pride or her station. I think she was clinging to romance. She would have had the same reaction if Joffrey was a knight because then she could be a "Lady" instead of a queen; whatever song suits her fantasy at the moment seems to be her goal, and Ned is the one who arranged the damn match. And saying women in the story need to be humbled triggers a sexist tone. People said that for years about Cersei and look what they got: having to cheer for the religious nutcases who wanted to "humble" her? Yikes. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, Jon would do anything for his sisters. ANYTHING. Jon making sacrifices to save one sister is already canon. I'm sure there will be another for Sansa. If that's where the Jonsa foreshadowing goes, I'll be very interested to see it.

He would do anything for Arya. He's already died for her in canon. But is it established that he would do "anything" for Sansa? Or for that matter, Bran? He clearly loves Arya more than his other siblings and IIRC he even states that outright. But when Stannis informs him that Sansa has married Tyrion, he doesn't have much of a reaction. He thinks more about how he's surprised that Tyrion killed his father, which implies he still has positive feelings about Tyrion, despite him knowing that he married his sister and in all likelihood raped her as well (because such a marriage couldn't be consensual). I also fail to see the "Jonsa" foreshadowing.

Also, Dany the female Stalin?? WTF. 

Edited by aromaticanalysis

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