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Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 He doesn't know the Hound. And Jaime doesn't think he is capable of acts like that. And also wouldn't such a predator not jump at the chance to beat Sansa like the other kingsguards? The Hound just isn't as black as you try to paint him.

Yeah, Meribald had no idea who the Hound is. Broken man was GRRM making a point about the nature of war. He said recently that it was the thing he was most proud of writing, which I don't think he would say if it was just a monologue about a specific character. 

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4 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

Yeah, Meribald had no idea who the Hound is. Broken man was GRRM making a point about the nature of war. He said recently that it was the thing he was most proud of writing, which I don't think he would say if it was just a monologue about a specific character. 

:agree:

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He doesn't know the Hound. And Jaime doesn't think he is capable of acts like that. And also wouldn't such a predator not jump at the chance to beat Sansa like the other kingsguards? The Hound just isn't as black as you try to paint him.

Sansa thinks of Dontos as her protector; yet no one ships them. Why? Is it because Sandor is just a bad boy with a sad backstory? Darkstar almost kills a child (the Hound actually does) and yet Darkstar doesnt get half the attention as Sandor, even though Arianne says, she's learned her lesson about those types of guys. GRRM also asked why women like bad boys like Sandor on his blog...maybe you could inform him on what the appeal is, since he doesn't know himself?

Maribald's speech is the most honest and poignant part of AFFC, and he starts by using the Hound as an example. Oh yes, I think he reads him like a fucking book.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa thinks of Dontos as her protector; yet no one ships them. Why? Is it because Sandor is just a bad boy with a sad backstory? Darkstar almost kills a child (the Hound actually does) and yet Darkstar doesnt get half the attention as Sandor, even though Arianne says, she's learned her lesson about those types of guys. GRRM also asked why women like bad boys like Sandor on his blog...maybe you could inform him on what the appeal is, since he doesn't know himself?

 Maribald's speech is the most honest and poignant part of AFFC, and he starts by using the Hound as an example. Oh yes, I think he reads him like a fucking book.

Duh, because Dontos is already dead and Sandor is still alive lol. As for "bad boys," well once again I think GRRM was being cheeky in saying he doesn't understand the appeal of characters like Jaime, Sandor, Theon, etc. They were clearly written to be sympathized with to some extent. He himself says that Daemon is his favourite Targ, and he can easily be lumped in with those guys in terms of moral unscrupulousness. Daemon is also established in-universe to be a womanizer so I think he understands the appeal of such men to (some) women perfectly fine.

As for Darkstar, well he doesn't get half the attention because he is just not written as well. 

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3 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

Duh, because Dontos is already dead and Sandor is still alive lol. As for "bad boys," well once again I think GRRM was being cheeky in saying he doesn't understand the appeal of characters like Jaime, Sandor, Theon, etc. They were clearly written to be sympathized with to some extent. He himself says that Daemon is his favourite Targ, and he can easily be lumped in with those guys in terms of moral unscrupulousness. Daemon is also established in-universe to be a womanizer so I think he understands the appeal of such men to (some) women perfectly fine.

As for Darkstar, well he doesn't get half the attention because he is just not written as well. 

And Boromir is his favorite in LotR :)

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9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa thinks of Dontos as her protector; yet no one ships them. Why? Is it because Sandor is just a bad boy with a sad backstory? Darkstar almost kills a child (the Hound actually does) and yet Darkstar doesnt get half the attention as Sandor, even though Arianne says, she's learned her lesson about those types of guys. GRRM also asked why women like bad boys like Sandor on his blog...maybe you could inform him on what the appeal is, since he doesn't know himself?

Well, I have answered that before in a reply to you. But I feel like you might not even be genuinely interested in my answer.  Also wrote before that I didn't like him the first time I read Clash and Storm, I thought he was a great villain in Game, and he is not among my favorite characters.

I came to pay more attention to him, because he appears so often in Sansa's chapters (she's my favorite) and because of all the symbolism going on there. That's all.

I don't ship them. I'm not in love with him. Thinking something will happen is different from wanting something to happen. But I also don't look down on ppl, who ship them or her and Jon or whoever..

I'm on that bandwagon, because the signs point in that direction, if the signs change I'll jump on another. I don't have specific demands on how the series is suppose to end. 

 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think she needed to SEE better, that's quite different than clinging to pride or her station. I think she was clinging to romance. She would have had the same reaction if Joffrey was a knight because then she could be a "Lady" instead of a queen; whatever song suits her fantasy at the moment seems to be her goal, and Ned is the one who arranged the damn match. And saying women in the story need to be humbled triggers a sexist tone. People said that for years about Cersei and look what they got: having to cheer for the religious nutcases who wanted to "humble" her? Yikes. 

Well I'm a woman so I would hardly intend to be sexist toward women but implying that only men ever need humbled is what is sexist IMO. Just because she is a woman doesn't mean she doesn't need humbled. 

Regardless of who made the match or if Sansa would have been the same had it been a knight you said she wasn't bitter, I contended she needn't be bitter to be humbled, but that she was in fact bitter when her potential station was being lowered. 

Cersei did need humbled. It didn't help much in her case but she deserved to be humbled none the less. Just because the manner in which she was treated was atrocious doesn't mean she didn't need humbled. 

She does cling to her pride & her station though. She looks down on people, her own family even. (Arya for not being a lady, Jon for being a bastard) she is rude & condescending with her septa, etc. 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Maribald's speech is the most honest and poignant part of AFFC, and he starts by using the Hound as an example. Oh yes, I think he reads him like a fucking book.

He is talking about Rorge "the fake Hound". Rorge has taken the Hound's helm from his grave and is raiding in the riverlands with a bunch of other outlaws. Everyone thinks that's Sandor Clegane, but it's not him.

 

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4 hours ago, aromaticanalysis said:

Duh, because Dontos is already dead and Sandor is still alive lol. As for "bad boys," well once again I think GRRM was being cheeky in saying he doesn't understand the appeal of characters like Jaime, Sandor, Theon, etc. They were clearly written to be sympathized with to some extent. He himself says that Daemon is his favourite Targ, and he can easily be lumped in with those guys in terms of moral unscrupulousness. Daemon is also established in-universe to be a womanizer so I think he understands the appeal of such men to (some) women perfectly fine.

As for Darkstar, well he doesn't get half the attention because he is just not written as well. 

That’s the only requirement for shipping for you, that a character be alive? Someone needs to the let the Jon/Ygritte shippers know.
 

I don’t think he’s being cheeky because he’s mentioned this multiple times, that he doesn’t understand why women like Sandor and that SanSan surprised him. Sounds like he’s just being tactful. I’m sure he’d love to ask women, you want to be manhandled by a child murderer who holds a knife to your throat? You find that romantic? You ship 13 year olds with much older men? Sympathy is one thing, ROMANCE is another. I bet he wrote Darkstar as a test to see if women had the same heart eyed reaction. And no, they did not, because he’s basically the Hound in terms of deeds, without the backstory. The Hound doesn’t even appear to be dashing like swashbuckling Rhett Butler, he’s just someone who will rape and kill you because he’s a broken man. Theon wants to rape Sansa as well. I think everyone’s standards for her are so low, Mr. Should Have Fucked Her Bloody and Mr. I Should Have Taken Sansa For Myself look like an attractive options. I get it, because people are relationship starved, but...ask why the author was surprised about SanSans.

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9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That’s the only requirement for shipping for you, that a character be alive? Someone needs to the let the Jon/Ygritte shippers know.
 

I don’t think he’s being cheeky because he’s mentioned this multiple times, that he doesn’t understand why women like Sandor and that SanSan surprised him. Sounds like he’s just being tactful. I’m sure he’d love to ask women, you want to be manhandled by a child murderer who holds a knife to your throat? You find that romantic? You ship 13 year olds with much older men? Sympathy is one thing, ROMANCE is another. I bet he wrote Darkstar as a test to see if women had the same heart eyed reaction. And no, they did not, because he’s basically the Hound in terms of deeds, without the backstory. The Hound doesn’t even appear to be dashing like swashbuckling Rhett Butler, he’s just someone who will rape and kill you because he’s a broken man. Theon wants to rape Sansa as well. I think everyone’s standards for her are so low, Mr. Should Have Fucked Her Bloody and Mr. I Should Have Taken Sansa For Myself look like an attractive options. I get it, because people are relationship starved, but...ask why the author was surprised about SanSans.

I think there may be a little bit of miscommunication here. I don't think most in this thread are shipping so much as saying this is where the evidence seems to be leading us. I'm, admittedly, not always hip with the lingo but doesn't shipping imply a want for these two characters to be together rather than saying "I don't necessarily want them to be together, I just think this is where the story is leading us." 

I think a lot of women like a "bad boy" image but I'll agree Sandor takes that to an extreme. In his defense though, I don't recall him ever raping anyone. So he may be a killer but he is not a rapist. He kills a child under the direct order of his king. Is it morally right? No not at all. But it was what was required of him to stay in the position he is in & possibly to stay alive. (I assume the punishment for disobeying is or at least can be death) 

I think the intrigue for Sandor stems from his background. Of course people are more invested in him that Darkstar - who we know very little about. That's just common sense. I think to say GRRM wrote Darkstar to see if he would get the same reaction is an insult to his intelligence. He is a fantastic writer & would know, like anyone else, that the back story & the potential reasons why a character does what they do make a big difference in likability. I also think there is a difference between liking a well-written character & agreeing with them. I like Sandor, I enjoy reading about him but I don't agree with the way he behaves. 

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He is talking about Rorge "the fake Hound". Rorge has taken the Hound's helm from his grave and is raiding in the riverlands with a bunch of other outlaws. Everyone thinks that's Sandor Clegane, but it's not him.

Really? You think Maribald’s speech about men who break from battle and become outlaws applies not one iota to the Hound, someone who broke from battle and became an outlaw? And not the Beric kind?

Quote

“There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds.”

Meaning, Sandor isn’t as bad as Rorge (yay?) This is where the white meets the grey. But still, the entire thing describes his situation, like other broken men.

Quote

“most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous.”

The Hound: evil dude, driven by ransom, malicious, hates gods, cares only for himself. Dangerous, which the author has used to describe Sandor multiple times. Not Beric. Fights Beric, actually. Checks all the boxes. 

Quote

“And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world . . .
“And the man breaks.
“He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man.”

All of this is basically what happened to Sandor during Blackwater. “Beast” is even used. He even finds a place to hide, in Sansa’s room, which I find creepy, and I feel sorrier for Sansa here because he holds all the power. But Maribald wants us to pity this guy, so ok whatever.

Quote

“before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they’re fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it’s just a short step to carrying off their daughters too.”

I think this is a sign that Sandor will continue on his path, steal from a few families, could have raped (“carried off”) Sansa which fits with his words that he wishes he would have.

Quote

“Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first.”

Sandor. Check. 

Quote

“What will you do with them?”
“Feed them. Ask them to confess their sins, so that I might forgive them. Invite them to come with us to the Quiet Isle.”

Hint fucking hint.

Sandor is a broken man according to Maribald’s speech. He may be one step above the Bloody Companions, but that’s the category he is in. It’s clear as day.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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13 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Really? You think Maribald’s speech about men who break from battle and become outlaws applies not one iota to the Hound, someone who broke from battle and became an outlaw? And not the Beric kind?

I don't believe anyone was arguing that Meribald's speech doesn't apply to the Hound. Your contention was that Meribald was speaking directly and personally about the Hound. That's certainly how I read it, anyway.

If you meant that Meribald was speaking of the Hound only theoretically and that his words are a general approximation for the Hound's emotional state without referring specifically to him, then it was not clear at all by how you wrote it.

It's not clear if Meribald, who spends a great deal of time away from the Quiet Isle as he travels all over the Riverlands on foot, has even met the Hound.

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31 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think there may be a little bit of miscommunication here. I don't think most in this thread are shipping so much as saying this is where the evidence seems to be leading us. I'm, admittedly, not always hip with the lingo but doesn't shipping imply a want for these two characters to be together rather than saying "I don't necessarily want them to be together, I just think this is where the story is leading us." 

It’s a difference between wanting it to be canon and thinking it will, but folks can still be wrong about both. Especially if they overly romanticize the interactions, which can still happen without shipping. It means you might think SanSans are generally correct, even if you don’t ship it. Either way it ignores what the author has said. If he was surprised by people who want Sandor and Sansa to be together, then he never intended them to be together and they’re just looking at something that isn’t going to happen like they want or think it will. 

38 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So he may be a killer but he is not a rapist. He kills a child under the direct order of his king. Is it morally right? No not at all. But it was what was required of him to stay in the position he is in & possibly to stay alive. (I assume the punishment for disobeying is or at least can be death) 

All of this is fine, but the author isn’t going to write a straight romance between Sansa and a child murderer who wishes he should have raped her. Warning bells should be going off, and they’re not. I find that troubling. I wish female readers could see the signs. Joffrey, Tyrion, Sandor, Loras, Dontos, all various shades of white and black, and none of them good enough for her. Sansa stans — people focused solely on Sansa’s well-being and happiness and no one else’s’— discuss how they have all failed her. I’m convinced by their arguments.

45 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think the intrigue for Sandor stems from his background. Of course people are more invested in him that Darkstar - who we know very little about. That's just common sense. I think to say GRRM wrote Darkstar to see if he would get the same reaction is an insult to his intelligence. He is a fantastic writer & would know, like anyone else, that the back story & the potential reasons why a character does what they do make a big difference in likability. I also think there is a difference between liking a well-written character & agreeing with them. I like Sandor, I enjoy reading about him but I don't agree with the way he behaves. 

I’m talking more about seeing them, as romantic figures. I think this exchange from So Spake Martin lends support to the idea of a test reaction and also the winking. Darkstar, Theon, the Hound, all similar characters, but it’s curious how one is given more scenes and the other has a POV and women swoon over that, even though they’re morally all very similar. I think he’s just surprised how low women’s standards are. 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It’s a difference between wanting it to be canon and thinking it will, but folks can still be wrong about both.

Oh for sure. Absolutely.

 

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Especially if they overly romanticize the interactions, which can still happen without shipping. 

I suppose it can but I personally don't think seeing evidence that points towards a possible relationship between Sandor & Sansa is overly romanticizing. I think there are some clear & obvious signs that this could potentially be an outcome for them. There is certainly something there - whether that something is that they will meet again & have a romantic relationship I don't know but I see why people may think that. 

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Either way it ignores what the author has said. If he was surprised by people who want Sandor and Sansa to be together, then he never intended them to be together and they’re just looking at something that isn’t going to happen like they want or think it will. 

Not necessarily. GRRM being surprised by people wanting them together is not the same as saying he never intends/ed for them to be together. It could mean that he inteneded for them to be together all along but he is surprised that people like the pairing. 

I personally wouldn't be surprised either way - if they end up together or if they don't. I think there is enough there to suggest they may but also not so much to say they will.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

All of this is fine, but the author isn’t going to write a straight romance between Sansa and a child murderer who wishes he should have raped her. Warning bells should be going off, and they’re not. I find that troubling. I wish female readers could see the signs. Joffrey, Tyrion, Sandor, Loras, Dontos, all various shades of white and black, and none of them good enough for her. Sansa stans — people focused solely on Sansa’s well-being and happiness and no one else’s’— discuss how they have all failed her. I’m convinced by their arguments.

I don't know about that. We are talking about the same author that wrote Daenerys & Drogo as a pretty straight up romance even though Dany was basically sold to him & raped (arguably). Daenerys certainly suffered more at the hands of Drogo & her new way of life than Sansa has from Sandor & Dany still loves Drogo even after he has died. 

Obviously Joffrey failed her but I'm curious to know how the rest of them did? Tyrion is definitely not the whitest of characters but he treated her kindly. We've discussed Sandor but not in so much as how he has failed Sansa. If you mean by mistreating her &/or treating her harshly, I suppose thats a form of failing someone. Loras doesn't owe Sansa anything & hasn't been particularly detrimental to her that I'm aware of so how has he failed her? It was Dontos NOT failing her that essentially got her out of KL. 

At any rate, I'm not sure where this pertains to Sansa & Sandor but maybe that's because I haven't read the "Sansa stans" perspective. 

 

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I’m talking more about seeing them, as romantic figures. I think this exchange from So Spake Martin lends support to the idea of a test reaction and also the winking. Darkstar, Theon, the Hound, all similar characters, but it’s curious how one is given more scenes and the other has a POV and women swoon over that, even though they’re morally all very similar. I think he’s just surprised how low women’s standards are. 

I've never read that exchange & I stand corrected. I see where you are coming from with this. I suppose I've not really compared the three of them in detail but I don't find them overly similar, morally or otherwise. Darkstar tries to kill a child other than that we know he appears to be an arrogant, kinda dumb, kid. Theon & the Hound are similar in that they both have a "back story" to sort of explain why they do the things they do & choose the paths they do but that is true of almost every character in the book. 

I can't speak to other women's standards & I personally don't find the Hound particularly inviting but what I think people like is the idea that this man is not just horrible to be horrible but that he is horrible because he doesn't know any other way to be. He doesn't know how else to communicate or act out. Meeting Sansa changed him as much as her. The idea that the Hound comes out of his "awakening" to be Sandor & no longer the Hound & feels the necessity to make some sort of amends to Sansa for treating her harshly is a pleasing one. I don't think it's that odd for women to swoon over that. A bad boy is intriguing to some, & the idea that the bad boy will change his ways all to be with you is an even better one. I'm not condoning abuse of any sort nor do I think a woman should ever put up with abuse, it's the idea that he will come back changed but still with the protectiveness or love (if that's what it is) for her still intact & be a better person to her that is likeable. Not for him to be with her & treat her poorly. 

 

ETA: I forgot about the "wishes he should have raped her" part. I think as the other posters have said that is taken out of context. What he is saying is that it would have been a better fate for her for him to do the most atrocious thing he can think of to her (rape her) than to leave her to the Lannisters. He has saved Sansa from rape once & hasn't raped anyone that we are aware of so I don't think it's fair to assume he condones rape when so many other people don't gather that from the same paragraph. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
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7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That’s the only requirement for shipping for you, that a character be alive? Someone needs to the let the Jon/Ygritte shippers know.
 

I don’t think he’s being cheeky because he’s mentioned this multiple times, that he doesn’t understand why women like Sandor and that SanSan surprised him. Sounds like he’s just being tactful. I’m sure he’d love to ask women, you want to be manhandled by a child murderer who holds a knife to your throat? You find that romantic? You ship 13 year olds with much older men? Sympathy is one thing, ROMANCE is another. I bet he wrote Darkstar as a test to see if women had the same heart eyed reaction. And no, they did not, because he’s basically the Hound in terms of deeds, without the backstory. The Hound doesn’t even appear to be dashing like swashbuckling Rhett Butler, he’s just someone who will rape and kill you because he’s a broken man. Theon wants to rape Sansa as well. I think everyone’s standards for her are so low, Mr. Should Have Fucked Her Bloody and Mr. I Should Have Taken Sansa For Myself look like an attractive options. I get it, because people are relationship starved, but...ask why the author was surprised about SanSans.

Uh, I think you're painting the Hound as much blacker than he actually is here. He commits terrible acts on orders from his employers but he doesn't "rape and kill" just for the hell of it - that describes his brother, not him. Jaime actually doubts that Sandor committed the acts attributed to him in the Riverlands, because, in his words, "Gregor is the real monster in House Clegane, not Sandor." And Jaime probably knows him really well, considering how much time they spent together in King's Landing.

With Darkstar, I think the problem is less that he doesn't have a backstory and more the fact that he comes off as really lame and hammy, like a villain from Pokemon or something lol. Dude is a walking meme, not a character.

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

All of this is fine, but the author isn’t going to write a straight romance between Sansa and a child murderer who wishes he should have raped her. Warning bells should be going off, and they’re not. I find that troubling. I wish female readers could see the signs. Joffrey, Tyrion, Sandor, Loras, Dontos, all various shades of white and black, and none of them good enough for her. Sansa stans — people focused solely on Sansa’s well-being and happiness and no one else’s’— discuss how they have all failed her. I’m convinced by their arguments.

Do you really think GRRM is going to write the rest of the series solely focused on "Sansa's well being and happiness and no one else's"???

Of course it wouldn't be a straight romance, it's fucked up! But the man loves his dramatic and fucked up romances. If the TV show can be taken as a guide, pretty much all relationships except for Sam & Gilly end in disaster. I doubt the character who wanted a fairytale romance more than any other will actually receive it in the way that she dreamed of. 

Edited by aromaticanalysis

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

All of this is fine, but the author isn’t going to write a straight romance between Sansa and a child murderer who wishes he should have raped her. Warning bells should be going off, and they’re not. I find that troubling. I wish female readers could see the signs. Joffrey, Tyrion, Sandor, Loras, Dontos, all various shades of white and black, and none of them good enough for her. Sansa stans — people focused solely on Sansa’s well-being and happiness and no one else’s’— discuss how they have all failed her. I’m convinced by their arguments.

I’m talking more about seeing them, as romantic figures. I think this exchange from So Spake Martin lends support to the idea of a test reaction and also the winking. Darkstar, Theon, the Hound, all similar characters, but it’s curious how one is given more scenes and the other has a POV and women swoon over that, even though they’re morally all very similar. I think he’s just surprised how low women’s standards are. 

In general, could you please stop policing other women for their fictional tastes- it is fiction! And what anyone likes or doesn't like won't change the story anyway. 

I think you are taking this all way to seriously. I don't see anyone here policing you, because you ship to ppl, who grew up together as siblings.

This is asoiaf after all. 

And as much as I love Sansa, what makes you think the story will be some sort of wish fulfillment for her? This is a big story with so many  different characters. She is not the only pov character.

And the world has failed Sansa, because it's a shit world and society, especially for women.

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34 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

In general, could you please stop policing other women for their fictional tastes- it is fiction! And what anyone likes or doesn't like won't change the story anyway. 

 I think you are taking this all way to seriously. I don't see anyone here policing you, because you ship to ppl, who grew up together as siblings.

Ship whomever, but this isn’t a03 or tumblr, it’s a book discussion forum and I focus most of my energies on a main POV character’s well being, who I believe is a main heroine worth focusing on. Consent is the bar, and no man around her (except maybe Loras) enthusiastically has it from her. I do think it’s useful to have a discussion about WHO is actually good for her, what consent is, what is kindness vs. cruelty, and I will argue with anyone and everyone who thinks the Hound or Tyrion are on the “good” side of these things. It also seems like Sansa is an appendage to their needs, or she’s used as a device to soothe man pain. Meanwhile, Sandor helped killed her father’s men in the throne room and Tyrion murdered his concubine, and now Sansa is married to that same man (and Sansa knows about neither events). Do people find that romantic too? Where does it stop? My main focus is on who will treat Sansa right. A medieval world is no excuse to settle for fear, abuse, victimization, or manhandling of a young woman. If that’s someone’s thing, go write or read a fic but don’t ignore how the author pushes back (Ex: arguing with women on his own blog about it). He appears to have a line.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And as much as I love Sansa, what makes you think the story will be some sort of wish fulfillment for her? This is a big story with so many  different characters. She is not the only pov character.

And the world has failed Sansa, because it's a shit world and society, especially for women.

Wanting Sansa to be with someone who doesn’t belittle, mock, or touch her without consent is not “wish fulfillment.” I’m wary of taking a basic standard of existence, which includes autonomy, consent, and choice, and calling it impossible. Finding it is what her entire journey is about.

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Just because Gregor is worse doesn't mean Sandor isn't a bad guy. Or else GRRM wouldn't have called him a villain. I find it fascinating that there is put so much emphasis on what Sandor did for Sansa in ACOK when Dontos did the same (and sometimes more) without being abusive. He actually complimented Sansa on her intelligence and gave her a much better advice than Sandor ever did. His actions are very often ignored in favor of Sandor (and Tyrion), especially when she beaten in her third chapter of ACOK. He immediately jumped in to soften Joffrey's anger by hitting her with a melon and gave her small word of comfort before he was knocked unconscious. He did the most for Sansa in that scene. After reading GRRM'S comment on his blog I wonder if by adding Dontos into the mix it was his subtly way of telling that we should raise the bar for Sansa. Nevertheless it makes me happy that GRRM thinks that way and I also agree with him that Samwell Tarly would be better for Sansa than Sandor. If we gonna ship Sansa with a not so good looking guy let's do it with one who's kind, gentle and, ironically enough, somewhat compatible with her. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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17 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I don’t think he’s being cheeky because he’s mentioned this multiple times, that he doesn’t understand why women like Sandor and that SanSan surprised him. Sounds like he’s just being tactful. I’m sure he’d love to ask women, you want to be manhandled by a child murderer who holds a knife to your throat? You find that romantic? You ship 13 year olds with much older men? Sympathy is one thing, ROMANCE is another.

I don't think anyone who ships Sansa with Sandor (or even Tyrion or any of the usual suspects) ships it for Sansa's sake. They are in it for the guys. Because I can't see how these pedophiles who insult her, manhandle her, belittle her, ridicule her, use her and think her stupid can be seen as appropriate partners for Sansa if you are a Sansa fan.

Some ship her with these guys for their own wish fulfillment or they function as their self-insert. They themselves are outcasts or misfits and they want their chance with the prom queen. These are broken men and there are plenty of men who wish a woman would fix them, just as there are women looking for a man to fix. There is of course the often cited bad boy stereotype. Some are in it for the Beauty and the Beast aspect of the story, which is projecting another highly problematic literary work onto GRRM's story. There are also plenty who wish Sansa ill since she is the most evil character in aSoIaF and her ending her story with one of the men (who are ALL villains) who mistreated her would be just deserts for them.

There is nothing any of these men have to offer her in a romantic relationship except a lot of issues, mistreatment, violence and unhappiness. Who would want that for the poor girl?

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10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

whomever, but this isn’t a03 or tumblr, it’s a book discussion forum and I focus most of my energies on a main POV character’s well being, who I believe is a main heroine worth focusing on. 

That's absolutely fine but not everyone feels the same & that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad. 

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

think it’s useful to have a discussion about WHO is actually good for her, what consent is, what is kindness vs. cruelty, and I will argue with anyone and everyone who thinks the Hound or Tyrion are on the “good” side of these things

It could be useful, yes. I think the problem is you are trying to have this discussion with people who aren't saying these things. I think most of us have only tried to answer the question about what may be the appeal to people thinking Sandor may end up with Sansa. You seem to interpret this to mean we are all sexist & condone abuse. Which is not remotely what anyone has said. 

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Meanwhile, Sandor helped killed her father’s men in the throne room and Tyrion murdered his concubine, and now Sansa is married to that same man (and Sansa knows about neither events). Do people find that romantic too? Where does it stop

Like this. It comes across as rather femi-nazi-ish. No one has even slightly suggested this is romantic. 

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

My main focus is on who will treat Sansa right. A medieval world is no excuse to settle for fear, abuse, victimization, or manhandling of a young woman. If that’s someone’s thing, go write or read a fic but don’t ignore how the author pushes back (Ex: arguing with women on his own blog about it). He appears to have a line.

This is not real life. Just because someone may be interested in reading about something does not mean they, themselves are condoning or participating in this same thing. I find serial killers highly intriguing but I don't want to be a serial killer or think that what they do is ok. 

A medieval world may not be an excuse to settle for abuse but a medieval world has different standards for what is abuse. It's appalling yes, but it's the truth none-the-less

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Wanting Sansa to be with someone who doesn’t belittle, mock, or touch her without consent is not “wish fulfillment.” I’m wary of taking a basic standard of existence, which includes autonomy, consent, and choice, and calling it impossible. Finding it is what her entire journey is abou

But when you state things like your main focus is who will treat Sansa right you are blocking out everything else. This story is not about who will treat Sansa right & so other people are going to discuss other things. That isn't meant to offend you or to wish ill on Sansa, I think most of us replying in this thread are Sansa fans. We are just trying to discuss where we think her storyline will go & why we think those things.

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