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Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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19 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

A medieval world may not be an excuse to settle for abuse but a medieval world has different standards for what is abuse. It's appalling yes, but it's the truth none-the-less

I wish people would stop using this excuse because Martin's world is only very loosely based on medieval times in our history, especially the nobility/upper class Martin writes about. The people in Martin's work aren't even really humans, otherwise some like the Targs would have died out ages ago due to inbreeding. And the reason why you can judge even the characters in Westeros for things like abuse have nothing to do with the depiction of a medieval society because there are plenty of exceptions in the books. There are female rulers, either actively in power or the power behind the throne and it is sometimes accepted in even the most sexist of places (Mormont women in the North). Dorne is an entire Kingdom where women have more rights. Plenty of people in the story don't abuse others, especially they don't abuse children.

No one has to judge the story by modern standards because that's not necessary due to Martin putting enough examples of opposite behavior in his story.

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There's an another factor we need to keep in mind when it comes to who Sansa will end up with. Sansa is a noble lady/princess and since GRRM is deadset on keeping ASOIAF as historically accurate as possible the likelihood of her ending up with someone so far below her status is very slim. Besides we can't also ignore the strong foreshadowing of Sansa becoming a queen. 

Above all else Sansa will end up in a political match. However since Sansa often laments that no one will marry her for love it also need to be a love match. So who Sansa ends up with needs to have these two requirements:

1. It needs to be politically advantageous to the North.

2. a love match

Since Sandor Clegane can't meet these requirements the chance they end up together is impossible.

Edited by Elegant Woes

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

I wish people would stop using this excuse because Martin's world is only very loosely based on medieval times in our history, especially the nobility/upper class Martin writes about. The people in Martin's work aren't even really humans, otherwise some like the Targs would have died out ages ago due to inbreeding. And the reason why you can judge even the characters in Westeros for things like abuse have nothing to do with the depiction of a medieval society because there are plenty of exceptions in the books. There are female rulers, either actively in power or the power behind the throne and it is sometimes accepted in even the most sexist of places (Mormont women in the North). Dorne is an entire Kingdom where women have more rights. Plenty of people in the story don't abuse others, especially they don't abuse children.

No one has to judge the story by modern standards because that's not necessary due to Martin putting enough examples of opposite behavior in his story.

It isn't an excuse it just is what it is. Regardless of the exceptions there are certainly situations where things in story are not considered abuse when by our standards they would be. For example, children are married off at young ages in Westeros, IRL this is illegal in most places & considered abuse. I think if we all get caught up in all the norms by Westrosi standards that are atrocious by our own standards it would be very hard to enjoy the story, at least for me. 

Plenty of people in story don't abuse others IF you base your idea of abuse on Westrosi standards & not our own. Ned is, by all accounts, a good father, not abusive to his children etc but he, along with many other good fathers, would allow his daughter to marry at a young age, much younger than what is acceptable today. So is he abusive or no?

I am not judging the story by modern standards? That's what I'm arguing against. I'm saying you should judge the story by Westrosi standards. 

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56 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's absolutely fine but not everyone feels the same & that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad. 

It could be useful, yes. I think the problem is you are trying to have this discussion with people who aren't saying these things. I think most of us have only tried to answer the question about what may be the appeal to people thinking Sandor may end up with Sansa. You seem to interpret this to mean we are all sexist & condone abuse. Which is not remotely what anyone has said. 

Like this. It comes across as rather femi-nazi-ish. No one has even slightly suggested this is romantic. 

Even though I hate this word- because I am a German and I consider myself a feminist lol, I completely agree with everything you wrote. But on the contrary I actually find it rather sexist to first at all police other women's fictional tastes and based on that attack them as ppl or make assumptions about their personal lives and views and behavior in rl.  And secondly to accuse everyone of romanticizing the Hound or his behavior, just because we don't agree with @Rose of Red Lake 's reading of the text and interpret things differently.

Imo this has nothing at all to do with feminism. feminism = equal rights and equal opportunities regardless the gender. Feminism is not like Emma Watson said :" A stick to beat other women with" or men for that matter. 

Shaming other ppl/women into silence has nothing to do with identifying with feminist values. In feminism everyone should be allowed to share their opinions equally. And of course you are allowed to critique and voice your concerns (and at best give some valid reasons for your arguments), but those kinds of personal attacks are rather generalizing and sexist imo.

I agree that @Rose of Red Lake tries to have this argument with the wrong ppl. Most of us don't seem to ship  ( don't want them to end up together; I happen to think they might, because of my interpretation of the text, but my happiness in not way depends on it) them and I have repeatedly said that the Hound is very violent and abusive towards Sansa. We just happen to have a different interpretation of the text in a lot of areas. And normally that should be just fine- agree to disagree. For some reason that doesn't work here though lol

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Even though I hate this word- because I am a German and I consider myself a feminist lol, I completely agree with everything you wrote. But on the contrary I actually find it rather sexist to first at all police other women's fictional tastes and based on that attack them as ppl or make assumptions about their personal lives and views and behavior in rl.  And secondly to accuse everyone of romanticizing the Hound or his behavior, just because we don't agree with @Rose of Red Lake 's reading of the text and interpret things differently.

Imo this has nothing at all to do with feminism. feminism = equal rights and equal opportunities regardless the gender. Feminism is not like Emma Watson said :" A stick to beat other women with" or men for that matter. 

Shaming other ppl/women into silence has nothing to do with identifying with feminist values. In feminism everyone should be allowed to share their opinions equally. And of course you are allowed to critique and voice your concerns (and at best give some valid reasons for your arguments), but those kinds of personal attacks are rather generalizing and sexist imo.

I agree that @Rose of Red Lake tries to have this argument with the wrong ppl. Most of us don't seem to ship  ( don't want them to end up together; I happen to think they might, because of my interpretation of the text, but my happiness in not way depends on it) them and I have repeatedly said that the Hound is very violent and abusive towards Sansa. We just happen to have a different interpretation of the text in a lot of areas. And normally that should be just fine- agree to disagree. For some reason that doesn't work here though lol

Absolutely! I probably shouldn't have used that word, it was mostly used for lack of a better word. I agree feminism is not remotely what I was referring to when I wrote that though & agree with the above definition. I think feminisim gets a bad name when we have extremists who do believe feminism is "A stick to beat other women with." I suppose that's why I put the "nazi-ish" after. Again, probably not my best word choice because I definitely don't want anyone to think I'm downing feminism. 

I'm with you on Sansa & Sandor - I think they may end up together because of the text. My happiness does not depend on it nor do I think it is inevitable. I will perfectly happy if the text leads us some other direction. 

I think we have both stated our arguments pretty clearly & civily & that's all we can do. :) 

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33 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

There's an another factor we need to keep in mind when it comes to who Sansa will end up with and it may offend a couple of people. Sansa is a noble lady/princess and since GRRM is deadset on keeping ASOIAF as historically accurate as possible the likelihood of her ending up with someone so far below her status is very slim. Besides we can't also ignore the strong foreshadowing of Sansa becoming a queen. 

Above all else Sansa will end up in a political match. However since Sansa often laments that no one will marry her for love it also need to be a love match. So who Sansa ends up with needs to have these two requirements:

1. It needs to be politically advantageous to the North.

2. a love match

Since Sandor Clegane can't meet these requirements the chance they end up together is impossible.

I don't think this will offend anyone, why would it? I've been wrong before though. 

I was unaware GRRM was deadset on keeping ASOIAF as historically accurate as possible. Which kingdom's history is he attempting to stay accurate to? 

There is something to be said about her not ending up with someone so far below her station but I think that would depend on who is brokering the marriage for her. Who will be left to do that other than Sansa herself? Maybe Petyr - he most certainly wouldn't betroth her to someone of a lower station. 

If Sansa is deciding for her self I think it would fit for her to decide she no longer cares about status & is going to marry a man of her own choosing, for love, or for political reasons, whichever she wishes. 

I think to say since Sandor can't meet these requirements means it is impossible for them be together is ignoring a lot of things. First & foremost that Sansa not marrying below her station & also marrying for love are your assumptions & not canon. Secondly that Sandor can't meet both those requirements is also your assumption, Sandor could be a love match for Sansa & while he doesn't give her any political edge currently we have no idea where he will sit at the end of the story. In short, Sansa may marry any number of people for any number of reasons but marrying Sandor is definitely not impossible. 

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5 hours ago, Mystical said:

I wish people would stop using this excuse because Martin's world is only very loosely based on medieval times in our history, especially the nobility/upper class Martin writes about. The people in Martin's work aren't even really humans, otherwise some like the Targs would have died out ages ago due to inbreeding. And the reason why you can judge even the characters in Westeros for things like abuse have nothing to do with the depiction of a medieval society because there are plenty of exceptions in the books. There are female rulers, either actively in power or the power behind the throne and it is sometimes accepted in even the most sexist of places (Mormont women in the North). Dorne is an entire Kingdom where women have more rights. Plenty of people in the story don't abuse others, especially they don't abuse children.

No one has to judge the story by modern standards because that's not necessary due to Martin putting enough examples of opposite behavior in his story.

Even though it is a fantasy story the society is heavily based on a medieval society. There are "plenty of female rulers, either actively in power or the power behind the throne" throughout medieval history, I'm really surprised, that you think there weren't, there are so may examples.

And the Targaryens are partly based on Ancient Egyptian rulers- they lasted long enough, even though they mostly married their siblings or other relatives.

And lastly it is based on medieval history, because GRRM has repeatedly said it is.

And most men are very abusive towards women in one way or another (because the society and belief system allows for it) or do other very immoral things in asoiaf. It just depends on your personal opinion, what weighs heavier to you .

Just think about Ned killing the deserter, a man just running for his life. Demanding his 7 year old child to watch the execution. Ned coming home with a baby from another woman and not only demanding of his wife, who also just had a newborn, to just accept it, but downright forbids her to ask questions and gets angry if she does. When if the tables were turned this would mean severe punishment for Cat and probably the end of their marriage. 

And what about Robb, who doesn't get his sisters back, even though he has the means to and knows this could likely mean their deaths or at least heavy abuse for them?

What about all the innocent ppl, who are being killed and abused and raped or having their livelihoods destroyed, because he refuses to give up on his war?

Ask Gilly, if she doesn't feel like Jon was severely abusive towards her, when he took away her baby (likely to be killed) ? So much pain and danger she took upon herself to be able to save her son, just for him to be taken away from her by Jon anyway. He took deliberately advantage of her situation.

And those are just the "good men" with honor. But you don't have to hold a knife to someone's throat to be abusive. Even though the Hound was abusive, at least he did save Ayra's and Sansa's lives, which is more than can be said about Robb and he was their brother.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

There's an another factor we need to keep in mind when it comes to who Sansa will end up with and it may offend a couple of people. Sansa is a noble lady/princess and since GRRM is deadset on keeping ASOIAF as historically accurate as possible the likelihood of her ending up with someone so far below her status is very slim. Besides we can't also ignore the strong foreshadowing of Sansa becoming a queen. 

Above all else Sansa will end up in a political match. However since Sansa often laments that no one will marry her for love it also need to be a love match. So who Sansa ends up with needs to have these two requirements:

1. It needs to be politically advantageous to the North.

2. a love match

Since Sandor Clegane can't meet these requirements the chance they end up together is impossible.

I agree with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar's answer to this. And I also think you very much pick and choose, when it comes to foreshadowing 

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@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I mean it in the sense that GRRM want to keep it realistic in the medieval setting and during that time class status was everything. Girls like Sansa did not end up with men like Sandor. 

 @Nagini's Neville I don't get what you exactly mean. Care to elaborate on when I pick and choose my foreshadowing? 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Absolutely! I probably shouldn't have used that word, it was mostly used for lack of a better word. I agree feminism is not remotely what I was referring to when I wrote that though & agree with the above definition. I think feminisim gets a bad name when we have extremists who do believe feminism is "A stick to beat other women with." I suppose that's why I put the "nazi-ish" after. Again, probably not my best word choice because I definitely don't want anyone to think I'm downing feminism. 

I'm with you on Sansa & Sandor - I think they may end up together because of the text. My happiness does not depend on it nor do I think it is inevitable. I will perfectly happy if the text leads us some other direction. 

I think we have both stated our arguments pretty clearly & civily & that's all we can do. :) 

I understood, what you meant :)and I agree - just wanted to elaborate on why I think it's rather sexist.

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It could be useful, yes. I think the problem is you are trying to have this discussion with people who aren't saying these things. I think most of us have only tried to answer the question about what may be the appeal to people thinking Sandor may end up with Sansa. You seem to interpret this to mean we are all sexist & condone abuse. Which is not remotely what anyone has said. 

It's not intended as a personal attack, it is a larger criticism. People discussed Sandor and Sansa in a romantic way for a very long time, I've witnessed 14 years of it, the title of this thread appears to continue that trend. It's just an overwhelming part of the discourse when I think Sandor's importance to Sansa and the overall story is overblown. In fact, little of it is focused exclusively on Sansa, consent, choice, and what is actually romantic intent. I dont think it was intended to be romantic and in fact it is a foil to romance. What is/isn't romantic is of course subjective but don't be shocked if people push back on the conclusion. 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Like this. It comes across as rather femi-nazi-ish. No one has even slightly suggested this is romantic. 

People just conveniently forget to bring it up in many discussions; I have to wonder if they're ignoring some crucial things about the text and woobifying others. 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is not real life. Just because someone may be interested in reading about something does not mean they, themselves are condoning or participating in this same thing. I find serial killers highly intriguing but I don't want to be a serial killer or think that what they do is ok. 

Yes, I under stand this basic concept of reality vs. fiction. But the discussion is about attraction to the serial killer type in Sandor and why the author is flummoxed by it. Why did the author bother responding to those women on his blog? It seems like they are ignoring some things about Sandor that he doesn't want them to ignore. Not saying you, in particular, are doing that. 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But when you state things like your main focus is who will treat Sansa right you are blocking out everything else. This story is not about who will treat Sansa right & so other people are going to discuss other things. That isn't meant to offend you or to wish ill on Sansa, I think most of us replying in this thread are Sansa fans. We are just trying to discuss where we think her storyline will go & why we think those things.

Interesting. I'm just over here aggressively focused on Sansa...and this is seen as too intense for a Sansa fan. 

Someone has to be focused on Sansa's well being. If nobody, then who? 

I think talking about Sansa while criticizing every sad, pathetic man in her life is a useful activity. 

And here is where I think here story will go: there will be a time when Sansa, with agency and protection, would reflect on all the men who have interacted with her, and she will acknowledge their bad/terrible actions. It's part of her journey to learning how to SEE better. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

I mean it in the sense that GRRM want to keep it realistic in the medieval setting and during that time class status was everything. Girls like Sansa did not end up with men like Sandor.

Oh, yeah I agree that asoiaf is based on medieval times & in those times the norm would be for a high born lady to marry a high born man, where you are losing me is Sansa being a high born lady = she cannot marry a low born man. 

Again, I agree it is the norm but there are exceptions to almost everything. I'm sure there are examples in medieval history where a high born person has married a low born person for one reason or another. 

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4 hours ago, Mystical said:

I wish people would stop using this excuse because Martin's world is only very loosely based on medieval times in our history, especially the nobility/upper class Martin writes about. The people in Martin's work aren't even really humans, otherwise some like the Targs would have died out ages ago due to inbreeding. And the reason why you can judge even the characters in Westeros for things like abuse have nothing to do with the depiction of a medieval society because there are plenty of exceptions in the books. There are female rulers, either actively in power or the power behind the throne and it is sometimes accepted in even the most sexist of places (Mormont women in the North). Dorne is an entire Kingdom where women have more rights. Plenty of people in the story don't abuse others, especially they don't abuse children.

No one has to judge the story by modern standards because that's not necessary due to Martin putting enough examples of opposite behavior in his story.

Dany got agency for herself at 14 with dragons and her own khalasar, can take a concubine, and yell at Jorah for crossing the line. But for Sansa having agency to reject men or call them out for being shitty is...unrealistic for the times? It doesnt make much sense to me. Her entire journey is about finding that in a man's world. But just saying it's a shit world gives her story nothing to work toward. What is the damn objective!!!

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46 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's not intended as a personal attack, it is a larger criticism. People discussed Sandor and Sansa in a romantic way for a very long time, I've witnessed 14 years of it, the title of this thread appears to continue that trend. It's just an overwhelming part of the discourse when I think Sandor's importance to Sansa and the overall story is overblown. In fact, little of it is focused exclusively on Sansa, consent, choice, and what is actually romantic intent. I dont think it was intended to be romantic and in fact it is a foil to romance. What is/isn't romantic is of course subjective but don't be shocked if people push back on the conclusion. 

Well, I guess discussing them in a romantic way seems pretty normal to me considering we have romantic tones & foreshadowing surrounding them. I think Sandor has been & will probably be of importance to Sansa in the story though. Maybe not in a romantic way but I would almost bet my hat that there will be some further interaction between the two of them. I understand you don't think it was intended to be romantic & to an extent I agree; in that I don't think the things Sandor has done to Sansa are romantic things meant to swoon her. I think his intentions are romantic toward her & I think she has some sort of romantic feelings about him too. Whether that be because she is suffering from stockholm syndrome or something & has come to have feelings for her abuser or whether that be because she sees the good in most things & has found some good, way down deep, in Sandor I'm not sure but there seems to be something there for her, even if it's subconcious. 

I'm not shocked that you disagree nor do I find it offensive, I just don't think it's fair to equate people seeing a romantic trend with Sandor & Sansa to them condoning abuse or wishing abuse on Sansa.

52 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

People just conveniently forget to bring it up in many discussions; I have to wonder if they're ignoring some crucial things about the text and woobifying others

But why would it be brought up in this discussion? We are discussing the popularity of San-san & whether or not there are romantic undertones there. I think we would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks the things you stated are romantic & to say it that way & then "What is next?!" reminds me of the argument against gay marriage - "What's next?!! People will be trying to marry their pets!" As if one thing is the same as the other. 

55 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, I under stand this basic concept of reality vs. fiction. But the discussion is about attraction to the serial killer type in Sandor and why the author is flummoxed by it. Why did the author bother responding to those women on his blog? It seems like they are ignoring some things about Sandor that he doesn't want them to ignore. Not saying you, in particular, are doing that

Oh for sure. I'm sure there are plenty of women that swoon over Sandor for all the wrong reasons. Just like the women who write murderers in jail & end up marrying them. Some people are just glutton for punishment I think. I honestly don't have an answer as to why those people feel the way they do. What I'm getting at though is that the people who are currently discussing things in this thread don't seem to be those people, so while I agree things like that happen & it's very odd, I think your argument on that would be better saved for those people. Not that you aren't free to say & discuss anything you would like, I'm just saying it doesn't reallly pertain in this particular conversation. 

 

58 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Interesting. I'm just over here aggressively focused on Sansa...and this is seen as too intense for a Sansa fan. 

Someone has to be focused on Sansa's well being. If nobody, then who? 

I think talking about Sansa while criticizing every sad, pathetic man in her life is a useful activity. 

And here is where I think here story will go: there will be a time when Sansa, with agency and protection, would reflect on all the men who have interacted with her, and she will acknowledge their bad/terrible actions. It's part of her journey to learning how to SEE better

Well yes a little too intense for this Sansa fan anyway. I'm a fan but her happiness is not my # 1 goal in the series. I think this story is such a web of tales & turns that to focus too hard on one specific thing is going to make you miss other things - just my opinion. 

Why does someone have to focused on Sansa's well being? - I'm genuinely asking, I don't want her to not be well, I'm just curious as to why you feel someone has to be focused on her well being. 

Sure, talking about Sansa & the men in her life can absolutely be a useful activity. I'm not trying to defend the actions of any man who has ever abused anyone, ever, even in a book. I was just trying to give you some insight into why some people may see things different than you. 

I think it would be great to have Sansa reflect on the things that she has been subjected to & come out of it a stronger person. I just think that there are so many women in the story who have suffered abuse, many to a greater affect than Sansa, that I would prefer maybe one of them to come to peace with everything they have been through & remain mentally sound & happy - if we only get one woman to do so. I would imagine GRRM isn't going to have every single abused person in asoiaf have this reflection. 

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18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany got agency for herself at 14 with dragons and her own khalasar, can take a concubine, and yell at Jorah for crossing the line. But for Sansa having agency to reject men or call them out for being shitty is...unrealistic for the times? It doesnt make much sense to me. Her entire journey is about finding that in a man's world. But just saying it's a shit world gives her story nothing to work toward. What is the damn objective!!!

I'm just confused I guess. Maybe this isn't directed at this thread or people in it in particular? If not, I apologize. 

If so who has said these things? Who says Sansa having agency to reject men or call them out for being shitty is unrealistic for the times? 

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21 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's not intended as a personal attack, it is a larger criticism. People discussed Sandor and Sansa in a romantic way for a very long time, I've witnessed 14 years of it, the title of this thread appears to continue that trend. It's just an overwhelming part of the discourse when I think Sandor's importance to Sansa and the overall story is overblown. In fact, little of it is focused exclusively on Sansa, consent, choice, and what is actually romantic intent. I dont think it was intended to be romantic and in fact it is a foil to romance. What is/isn't romantic is of course subjective but don't be shocked if people push back on the conclusion. 

People just conveniently forget to bring it up in many discussions; I have to wonder if they're ignoring some crucial things about the text and woobifying others. 

Yes, I under stand this basic concept of reality vs. fiction. But the discussion is about attraction to the serial killer type in Sandor and why the author is flummoxed by it. Why did the author bother responding to those women on his blog? It seems like they are ignoring some things about Sandor that he doesn't want them to ignore. Not saying you, in particular, are doing that. 

Interesting. I'm just over here aggressively focused on Sansa...and this is seen as too intense for a Sansa fan. 

Someone has to be focused on Sansa's well being. If nobody, then who? 

I think talking about Sansa while criticizing every sad, pathetic man in her life is a useful activity. 

And here is where I think here story will go: there will be a time when Sansa, with agency and protection, would reflect on all the men who have interacted with her, and she will acknowledge their bad/terrible actions. It's part of her journey to learning how to SEE better. 

What makes it very difficult to have a productive and interesting discussion among ppl, who disagree, is that you keep on stating your own opinions and interpretations as facts. And they are not. Often there is valid reasoning behind them and you are totally entitled to your own opinion, but that's what it stays an opinion, as is the case for all of us.

But if ppl don't agree with you "facts" you get pretty judgmental and aggressive. And you also seem to need to unload a lot of anger, that you have towards anyone, who has ever romanticized the Hound or wanted him and Sansa to end up together. And I actually think that's more a topic for tumblr.

It just takes the fun out of debating those things for me. Which is a pity, because I don't ship Sandor and Sansa and I'm very interested in Sansa's future and therefore would have been genuinely interested in your guys' interpretation of symbolism, that I read as marriage foreshadowing for them. 

But since the sheer mentioning of that, will get your guys' blood boiling and you'll accuse me of making stuff up or romanticizing the Hound the whole thing has become a pointless conversation to me. 

And that you automatically assume, ppl wondering, if the Hound could be Sansa's direwolf, means everyone, who dares to ask that question, thinks there'll be a romantic connection between them, is a good example of that. A lot of ppl think Sandor will only be Sansa's platonic protector.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, I under stand this basic concept of reality vs. fiction. But the discussion is about attraction to the serial killer type in Sandor and why the author is flummoxed by it. Why did the author bother responding to those women on his blog? It seems like they are ignoring some things about Sandor that he doesn't want them to ignore. Not saying you, in particular, are doing that. 

Lolwut. How is Sandor a "serial killer type?" Serial killer types in ASOIAF are like Ramsay Bolton or Gregor Clegane. Total psychos who kill for the hell of it. Sandor is like Jaime, in that he enjoys killing people in the context of war/battles. Is it a great quality to have, in a modern context definitely not, but it makes sense for a warrior in a martial society. 

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5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For example, children are married off at young ages in Westeros, IRL this is illegal in most places & considered abuse. I think if we all get caught up in all the norms by Westrosi standards that are atrocious by our own standards it would be very hard to enjoy the story, at least for me.

Even during medieval times the nobility knew about the dangers of childbirth which is why even with betrothals or marriage made at a young age, consummation didn't happen until 18 or older precisely because of the danger to mother and/or child. This is nonexistent in Westeros, hence the nobility of that world only loosely based on ours.

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Even though it is a fantasy story the society is heavily based on a medieval society. There are "plenty of female rulers, either actively in power or the power behind the throne" throughout medieval history, I'm really surprised, that you think there weren't, there are so may examples

I never said there wasn't. But Martin's world has a patriarchy on steroids, which does NOT reflect our medieval times at all. Hence my aversion to comparing it to that time in history. Worse if people use that excuse to justify the story, especially the patriarchy in it.

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It just takes the fun out of debating those things for me. Which is a pity, because I don't ship Sandor and Sansa and I'm very interested in Sansa's future and therefore would have been genuinely interested in your guys' interpretation of symbolism, that I read as marriage foreshadowing for them.

I have never once interpreted anything regarding the two as romantic on her end, much less foreshadowing a marriage for the two. IMO there is a difference between romance and romanticizing. I don't care about Sandor's side because he doesn't matter to me. Sansa's view can be easily interpreted as romanticizing. She is an abandoned, abused, frightened and confused girl. She is going to cling to whatever good in the world she can, even if she has to distort reality. It's a survival mechanism. I've mentioned this already on the thread but the un-kiss is a perfect example of that coping mechanism. She needs to distort what actually happened in order to cling to some belief that there is some good out there. So she romanticizes what actually happened between them. Similar to how she deliberately refrains from thinking about Jeyne because otherwise the world comes crashing down. This is how she copes with the ugliness of the world.

So she has sex dreams that have Sandor in them? Big whoop. She's a pre-teen whose hormones are now active. Her exposure to men is limited and she has romanticized Sandor in her own mind. Her having dreams about him tells me nothing. No different than teens in our world who have sex dreams about some actor, singer or character they swoon over.

But that's just me...

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26 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I have never once interpreted anything regarding the two as romantic on her end, much less foreshadowing a marriage for the two. IMO there is a difference between romance and romanticizing. I don't care about Sandor's side because he doesn't matter to me. Sansa's view can be easily interpreted as romanticizing. She is an abandoned, abused, frightened and confused girl. She is going to cling to whatever good in the world she can, even if she has to distort reality. It's a survival mechanism. I've mentioned this already on the thread but the un-kiss is a perfect example of that coping mechanism. She needs to distort what actually happened in order to cling to some belief that there is some good out there. So she romanticizes what actually happened between them. Similar to how she deliberately refrains from thinking about Jeyne because otherwise the world comes crashing down. This is how she copes with the ugliness of the world.

Personally I always interpreted the un-kiss as a parallel to Petyr thinking that he f*cked Cat (when really it was Lysa). He seems to genuinely believe it happened, or at least wants to believe it happened so badly that he concocts a false memory.

Same with Sansa. Yeah, she has a history of romanticizing things, but I don't see how adding a kiss to this scene shows that there is "good in the world." Logically, if Sandor had actually kissed her at the Blackwater wouldn't that have made it worse? His actions are already assault, adding a kiss just bumps it up to sexual assault. I don't think it's as simple as a coping mechanism; just like Petyr, she embellishes her memory to match her fantasy world. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. It shows that Sansa has the potential to reach LF levels as a player in the game - the best liars believe in their own lies, etc. 

Edited by aromaticanalysis

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