What was the purpose of Jon Snow?

[Nowy Tends]

2 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

2.Ramsay also raped Sansa multiple times and its actually worse than Drogo. Ramsay's family murdered Sansa's brother. She was forcibly made to understand that the one of the traitors to her family was watching her naked being brutally raped by another traitor to her family. The humiliation here is incomprehensible. Then like some broodmare she was locked up in a dark room where she spent the entire day crying.

Sansa AGREED to marry Ramsay, she agreed to stay with the family whose responsible of the death of her brother, her mother, many Northern Lords, when she could have run away with Brienne. 

It's so stupid and improbable that I wonder how people can integrate this into a discussion.

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, RYShh said:

We don't know what they did with the prisoners or not in Aegon's era, even then once the kings bend the knee lords and soldiers follow. Aegon's example isn't suitable for this, if Cersei bends the knee then Randyll would follow. Randyll didn't bend the knee because he still had a queen (which is Cersei) as he said, he is a soldier, he follows or he dies. What Daenerys did is stupid, which is why Tyrion disagreed. She expects them to bend the knee before they defeat Cersei. First she needed to defeat Cersei, and then expect others to bend the knee, that's what you failed to separate.

Daenerys took no prisoners, she already said that;

Tyrion: ''Your Grace, nothing scrubs bold notions from a man's head like a few weeks in a dark cell.'' 

Daenerys: ''I meant what I said. I'm not here to put men in chains. If that becomes an option, many will take it.'' (S07E05)

Her reasoning is ''if that's an option, others will take it as well'', she basically wanted to rule them by fear. It's not saving the people from tyrant Cersei, Daenerys was also a tyrant, and she could go far enough to burn million people for it, which means she was even worse than Tywin and Cersei.

Feel free to  ignore the behaviour of Westeros' past rulers and power players, but it undermines your argument.

As to Dany being worse than Cersei or Tywin, she saved the world, with Arya. They did not.

[Kaapstad]

Just now, Nowy Tends said:

Sansa AGREED to marry Ramsay, she agreed to stay with the family whose responsible of the death of her brother, her mother, many Northern Lords, when she could have run away with Brienne. 

It's so stupid and improbable that I wonder how people can integrate this into a discussion. 

She saw Brienne at the wedding speaking to Cersei Lannister. She would be a fool to trust her at that point. Like Littlefinger said "You think its better to bet on a man you know than a man you don't".

Sansa was powerless and frightened when she was with LF. That's why she allows him to kiss her sexually multiple times. She didn't know who Ramsay was. And LF would have simply let go of her if she refused to go to the wedding. She didn't have any protector she believed in.

[RYShh]

8 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Sansa AGREED to marry Ramsay, she agreed to stay with the family whose responsible of the death of her brother, her mother, many Northern Lords, when she could have run away with Brienne. 

It's so stupid and improbable that I wonder how people can integrate this into a discussion.

LF tricked her, she didn't know LF was going to sell her to the Boltons when Brienne first came to see her. She couldn't run anywhere after she learned the deal between LF and the Boltons.

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Feel free to  ignore the behaviour of Westeros' past rulers and power players, but it undermines your argument.

As to Dany being worse than Cersei or Tywin, she saved the world, with Arya. They did not.

You're ignoring what past rulers did such as Robb Stark and even Tywin, and he is the guy that people call ''evil'' and even he took prisoners, but not Daenerys.

Daenerys didn't know Cersei was plotting behind her, and she only agreed to save the North once they all agree to fight in the North, otherwise she wouldn't care about the North or the people at all.

[SeanF]

Just now, RYShh said:

LF tricked her, she didn't know LF was going to sell her to the Boltons when Brienne first came to see her.

You're ignoring what past rulers did such as Robb Stark and even Tywin, he is the guy that people call ''evil''.

Daenerys didn't know Cersei was plotting behind her, and she only agreed to save the North once they all agree to fight in the North, otherwise she wouldn't care about the North or the people at all.

What did Tywin do to the Reynes and Tarbecks? Was that better or worse than the offer Dany made to the Tarlys?

Dany twice risked her life for the North.  She could have just sailed/flown away to safety.

[Kaapstad]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What did Tywin do to the Reynes and Tarbecks? Was that better or worse than the offer Dany made to the Tarlys?

Dany twice risked her life for the North.  She could have just sailed/flown away to safety.

Had Dany not risked her life for the North there would have been a shit ton more corpses for her to fight once the NK was done with Winterfell. She calls herself the Rightful Queen. What is in that job descrpiton "Protector of the Realm". She was literally doing her job.

[RYShh]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

What did Tywin do to the Reynes and Tarbecks? Was that better or worse than the offer Dany made to the Tarlys?

Dany twice risked her life for the North.  She could have just sailed/flown away to safety.

Reynes plotted against the Lannisters, and they disobeyed their orders openly even though they were a sworn bannermen of House Lannister. Which prisoner Tywin took was a sworn bannermen of House Lannister? You're mixing up the things right now.

Daenerys was trying to rule the Westeros, how could she do that without risking her life and leaving the country to the Night King exactly? 

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Had Dany not risked her life for the North there would have been a shit ton more corpses for her to fight once the NK was done with Winterfell. She calls herself the Rightful Queen. What is in that job descrpiton "Protector of the Realm". She was literally doing her job.

Of course.  Unlike Cersei, she does her duty.  A ruler who does her duty does not deserve to have her advisors and allies plotting to bring her down.

 

12 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Reynes plotted against the Lannisters, and they disobeyed their orders openly even though they were a sworn bannermen of House Lannister. Which prisoner Tywin took was a sworn bannermen of House Lannister? You're mixing up the things right now.

Daenerys was trying to rule the Westeros, how could she do that without risking her life and leaving the country to the Night King exactly? 

I'm proving that Tywin was way more ruthless than Dany.  He even killed his own aunt, Lady Tarbeck.

[Kaapstad]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Of course.  Unlike Cersei, she does her duty.

 

I'm proving that Tywin was way more ruthless than Dany.  He even killed his own aunt, Lady Tarbeck.

She did her duty by "liberating" the people of Kings Landing? Dany killed more innocents in a single day than all the villains in the history of the show combined.

The North hadn't sworn fealty to Cersei. She had no obligation to help them with the NK.

I can tell you one thing. Cersei despite being a complete bitch personally was shown to be a better queen tHan Dany on the show. Dany’s rule in Meereen was a complete disaster. THe average Joe would prefer being ruled by Cersei rather than Dany. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

She did her duty by "liberating" the people of Kings Landing? Dany killed more innocents in a single day than all the villains in the history of the show combined.

The North hadn't sworn fealty to Cersei. She had no obligation to help them with the NK.

Cersei claimed to be the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.  Not the Seven Kingdoms, minus the North.

Had Dany's advisors and allies remained loyal to her, the likelihood is that Kings Landing would have turned  out very differently.  As it is, without Dany's actions, there simply wouldn't be a living population on the Westerosi mainland. 

 

[RYShh]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Of course.  Unlike Cersei, she does her duty.  A ruler who does her duty does not deserve to have her advisors and allies plotting to bring her down.

 

I'm proving that Tywin was way more ruthless than Dany.  He even killed his own aunt, Lady Tarbeck.

And you think Daenerys wouldn't kill her own kin in the same betrayal situation?  She didn't even blink when they burned her brother's head even when Viserys begged her to stop it.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, RYShh said:

And you think Daenerys wouldn't kill her own kin in the same betrayal situation?  She didn't even blink when they burned her brother's head even when Viserys begged her to stop it.

Dany didn't kill him.  She was a sex slave, who had no control over her brother's fate.

[Kaapstad]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Cersei claimed to be the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.  Not the Seven Kingdoms, minus the North.

Had Dany's advisors and allies remained loyal to her, the likelihood is that Kings Landing would have turned  out very differently.  As it is, without Dany's actions, there simply wouldn't be a living population on the Westerosi mainland. 

 

She was bluffing. Jamie outright calls her out on that and she accepts it. She calls herself the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Jamie tells her that she is Queen of 3 kingdoms at best. 

And when they met at the Dragonpit, Cersei asks Jon to stay out of the war between her and Dany.Jon refuses saying he can’t serve 2 queens. At that point the North opted out of her protection. She owes nothing to them  

Her advisors were loyal loyal to her. She was the one who was unhinged using her dragons as nukes. And really does Westeros need a queen where everyone has to stay in line because if they don’t she could go off like a ticking time bomb? She was a tyrant back in Meereen as well when everyone was loyal to her and she  crucified 163 nobles and fed 1 to her dragon as a public spectacle not having any clue whether they were guilty. There were uprisings and revolts everywhere because she removed the existing system but did not replace it with one which kept everything together. She made up rules on the go. Her descent into Nazism is foreshadowed in her convo with Barrowton Selmy. 

"Dany: I’m not my father

Ser Barristan: No, Your Grace. Thank the gods. But the Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved. And each time it made him feel powerful and right. Until the very end"

Dany gave the justice to her enemies which she thought they deserved. It also made her feel right, until the very end.

I can say with complete confidence that the average Joe peasant or farmer would have been more happier with Cersei than Dany as Queen  

As far as the NK goes, Dany not helping them could also have worked in the North’s favour. Without Dany, Jon wouldn’t go on that wight hunt and the NK couldn’t have gotten his hands on a dragon.He wouldn’t have been able to cross the Wall as easily as he did and even if he did, it ends just like it ended in the show. Without the dragon he also wouldn’t be able to kill as many soldiers. Even with Dany, the Night King reaches Bran. Without Dany the same story repeats and Arya kills her.  Sansa even says they didn’t need Dany. They only needed Arya  

Whatever goodwill she earned was negated by the destruction of Kings Landing. Her own soldiers are going to die of butterfly fever and the North certainly won’t stick its neck out for a genocidal tyrant  

 

[Kaapstad]

Just now, SeanF said:

Dany didn't kill him.  She was a sex slave, who had no control over her brother's fate.

Effectively she did kill him. If she had told Khal Drogo he would have listened. While he is dying she looks st him with an expression devoid of any emotion. No happiness or sadness. And she says "He was not a dragon". That’s he response to killing her own brother. 

[RYShh]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Dany didn't kill him.  She was a sex slave, who had no control over her brother's fate.

Stop it, you know she wasn't. What kind of sex slave can save slaves from other Dothraki riders, she was already capable of manipulating Khal Drogo, she was carrying his child already. 

[Nowy Tends]

blah blah blah. Some people have such a hatred for Daenerys that even if she had married Patchface and decided to live in a cave on Pyke Island after dedicating her dragons to sea rescue she would still be evil incarnate.

Just as, a few years ago, on this same forum the anti-Stark scum didn't know what to invent to prove that the Starks were stubborn morons who deserved what was happening to them.

[Kaapstad]

2 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

blah blah blah. Some people have such a hatred for Daenerys that even if she had married Patchface and decided to live in a cave on Pyke Island after dedicating her dragons to sea rescue she would still be evil incarnate.

Just as, a few years ago, on this same forum the anti-Stark scum didn't know what to invent to prove that the Starks were stubborn morons who deserved what was happening to them.

No. The thing is we saw Dany for what she really was back in Essos. I would say Martin duped everyone who followed the Essos storyline. Essos was created with the sole objective of tricking the reader as we compartmentalise things. We viewed Essos as a separate story when it wasn’t. We see everything there through Dany’s POV. We feel good. When she comes to Westeros and her paths clash with Jon and Sansa then we begin to see her for what she really is. 

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

She was bluffing. Jamie outright calls her out on that and she accepts it. She calls herself the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Jamie tells her that she is Queen of 3 kingdoms at best. 

And when they met at the Dragonpit, Cersei asks Jon to stay out of the war between her and Dany.Jon refuses saying he can’t serve 2 queens. At that point the North opted out of her protection. She owes nothing to them  

Her advisors were loyal loyal to her. She was the one who was unhinged using her dragons as nukes. And really does Westeros need a queen where everyone has to stay in line because if they don’t she could go off like a ticking time bomb? She was a tyrant back in Meereen as well when everyone was loyal to her and she  crucified 163 nobles and fed 1 to her dragon as a public spectacle not having any clue whether they were guilty. There were uprisings and revolts everywhere because she removed the existing system but did not replace it with one which kept everything together. She made up rules on the go. Her descent into Nazism is foreshadowed in her convo with Barrowton Selmy. 

"Dany: I’m not my father

Ser Barristan: No, Your Grace. Thank the gods. But the Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved. And each time it made him feel powerful and right. Until the very end"

Dany gave the justice to her enemies which she thought they deserved. It also made her feel right, until the very end.

I can say with complete confidence that the average Joe peasant or farmer would have been more happier with Cersei than Dany as Queen  

As far as the NK goes, Dany not helping them could also have worked in the North’s favour. Without Dany, Jon wouldn’t go on that wight hunt and the NK couldn’t have gotten his hands on a dragon.He wouldn’t have been able to cross the Wall as easily as he did and even if he did, it ends just like it ended in the show. Without the dragon he also wouldn’t be able to kill as many soldiers. Even with Dany, the Night King reaches Bran. Without Dany the same story repeats and Arya kills her.  Sansa even says they didn’t need Dany. They only needed Arya  

 

It looks to me like Meereen was in pretty good shape by the end of Season 6.  The people were free and their enemies were beaten.  Job done.  Life for the majority was much better than it was pre-Dany.

As to the Night's King, Arya killed him, but could never have hoped to succeed without the efforts of Dany and her army.

And, if she'd left Jon & Co. In the lurch, North of the Wall, wouldn't that just be another black mark in the eyes of her critics?

 

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Effectively she did kill him. If she had told Khal Drogo he would have listened. While he is dying she looks st him with an expression devoid of any emotion. No happiness or sadness. And she says "He was not a dragon". That’s he response to killing her own brother. 

Where do you get the idea from that a Khal would forgive a man who threatened to murder his Khaleesi and drew steel in his sacred city?

And why should she?  He'd just threatened to murder her.  Would you try to save your murderer?

[RYShh]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Where do you get the idea from that a Khal would forgive a man who threatened to murder his Khaleesi and drew steel in his sacred city?

And why should she?  He'd just threatened to murder her.  Would you try to save your murderer?

1- Viserys was drunk

2- They mocked with him by saying he was no king and wait outside when they actually promised him to give an army

3- Viserys begged Daenerys to stop it when he understand what they are going to do

Do you see what you did? Because of you I had to defend that fool Viserys. 

She simply didn't care any of that, and didn't even blink when they burned her brother's head. At least she could ask them to kill him with a less brutal way, if not for taking him as a prisoner. Daenerys is as ruthless as Tywin if not more.