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What was the purpose of Jon Snow?

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3 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

We feel good. When she comes to Westeros and her paths clash with Jon and Sansa then we begin to see her for what she really is. 

Or, we begin to see the Stark children for what they really are. Jon is high on pot 24/24  (unable to formulate a coherent sentence), Arya now speaks like a Gestapo officer, and Sansa, sick with jealousy, attacks the person who came to save her sweet North's ass, in the style "who's gonna pay for the damn grub?"..... add a background of xenophobia, even racism, and Pffuit, the Starks have become Lannisters… Charming :rolleyes:

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10 minutes ago, RYShh said:

1- Viserys was drunk

2- They mocked with him by saying he was no king and wait outside when they actually promised him to give an army

3- Viserys begged Daenerys to stop it when he understand what they are going to do

Do you see what you did? Because of you I had to defend that fool Viserys. :D

She simply didn't care any of that, and didn't even blink when they burned her brother's head. At least she could ask them to kill him with a less brutal way, if not for taking him as a prisoner. Daenerys is as ruthless as Tywin if not more.

 

And you're wrong to defend him.

But in addition to the murder threat, he's spent years beating Dany, molesting her, abusing her as whore and slut, selling her to a man he despises, and telling her that he's happy if 40,000 men rape.  Why the hell is she expected to plead for such a creature?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And you're wrong to defend him.

But in addition to the murder threat, he's spent years beating Dany, molesting her, abusing her as whore and slut, selling her to a man he despises, and telling her that he's happy if 40,000 men rape.  Why the hell is she expected to plead for such a creature?

Viserys abused himself due to his exile, it wasn't ease for him to live in Essos, he still look after her sister, you think Daenerys could survive without Viserys? He taught Daenerys everything he knows about Westeros, she wouldn't even know who they are and where they come from if not for Viserys probably. Daenerys was essentially going to marry with Viserys due to Targaryen incest tradition, so that's also part of their family tradition.  Selling daughters and sisters happens in Westeros as well, not sure how it's a crime.

He told her that 40.000 thing after she wanted to disobey Viserys not before. Anyway, Viserys tried to beat her twice, and failed twice. When did she say he beat her consistently in the show? I don't remember. I see no reason for her to let them kill him by burning his head, she should've asked that they should take him as prisoner, or least don't look and feel sorry for your kin as Jorah suggested. Viserys deserved to die, that doesn't mean Daenerys shouldn't show any emotion and not feel sorry for him. You talked about Lady Tarbeck and Tywin, this is exactly like that one. So the point stands.

Edited by RYShh

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7 minutes ago, RYShh said:

1- Viserys was drunk

2- They mocked with him by saying he was no king and wait outside when they actually promised him to give an army

3- Viserys begged Daenerys to stop it when he understand what they are going to do

Do you see what you did? Because of you I had to defend that fool Viserys. :D

She simply didn't care any of that, and didn't even blink when they burned her brother's head. At least she could ask them to kill him with a less brutal way, if not for taking him as a prisoner. Daenerys is as ruthless as Tywin if not more.

 

This discussion was already held here only a few days ago. You're playing the troll here. No one with a functioning brain can reasonably think that Viserys could've been saved. 

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45 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Effectively she did kill him. If she had told Khal Drogo he would have listened. While he is dying she looks st him with an expression devoid of any emotion. No happiness or sadness. And she says "He was not a dragon". That’s he response to killing her own brother. 

Viserys had bullied and abused Daenerys for years.  She tried to help him earn the Dothraki's respect; he refused to even respect their ways.  And then he points a dagger (or sword, I can't remember) at Daenerys' pregnant belly and threatens to cut the unborn child out of her.  If I had been Daenerys, that would have been the point of no return; Viserys had become too much of a threat to her and her child.  I doubt that Khal Drogo would have altered his decision to kill Viserys even if Daenerys had begged for her brother's life; he would have lost face before all the assembled Dothraki had he allowed the man who openly threatened his wife and unborn child to live.  Daenerys might have been somewhat in shock when she said "He was not a dragon"; or it's an indication of emotional stability.  Either way, I don't blame her at all for not trying to help Viserys at that point.

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Just now, Nowy Tends said:

This discussion was already held here only a few days ago. You're playing the troll here. No one with a functioning brain can reasonably think that Viserys could've been saved. 

Now I understand what your problem is;

'' At least she could ask them to kill him with a less brutal way, if not for taking him as a prisoner.''

 

That was part of my post, and you just didn't read. Friendly advise; try to read the posts better next time, or don't answer it blindly.

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3 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Viserys had bullied and abused Daenerys for years.  She tried to help him earn the Dothraki's respect; he refused to even respect their ways.  And then he points a dagger (or sword, I can't remember) at Daenerys' pregnant belly and threatens to cut the unborn child out of her.  If I had been Daenerys, that would have been the point of no return; Viserys had become too much of a threat to her and her child.  I doubt that Khal Drogo would have altered his decision to kill Viserys even if Daenerys had begged for her brother's life; he would have lost face before all the assembled Dothraki had he allowed the man who openly threatened his wife and unborn child to live.  Daenerys might have been somewhat in shock when she said "He was not a dragon"; or it's an indication of emotional stability.  Either way, I don't blame her at all for not trying to help Viserys at that point.

And why he did that?

He was drunk and Dothraki mocked with him instead of giving him an army. His only mistake was acting like a fool, Dothraki deceived him after all. Still Viserys was her brother, and still when they burned his head, she didn't even blink, I mean even Jorah suggested her to not look at it, but she did look at him without an emotion, that tell us about Daenerys's true character.

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2 hours ago, RYShh said:

 

Tywin saved their lives by using them as workers, that's not slavery and there is no slavery in Westeros anyway, what you say make no sense again. Tywin wasn't asking them to bend the knee or die. 

How is forced prisoner-of-war labour to be distinguished from slavery? The ancient world often used warfare for the express purpose of capturing the enemy so that he could be put to work as a slave.

Now granted, these were not slaves like thise of the antebellum American South, or those of the Ghiscari slavers. But forced servants of the conquerors they remained. 

How is this not slavery as a practical matter?

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1 minute ago, RYShh said:

Now I understand what your problem is;

'' At least she could ask them to kill him with a less brutal way, if not for taking him as a prisoner.''

 

That was part of my post, and you just didn't read. Friendly advise; try to read the posts better next time, or don't answer it blindly.

I have already answered to that in a previous thread: your suggestion doesn't make sense, it seems you don't understand the context, and don't bother to address me, I'm not interested. 

 

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1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

How is forced prisoner-of-war labour to be distinguished from slavery? The ancient world often used warfare for the express purpose of capturing the enemy so that he could be put to work as a slave.

Now granted, these were not slaves like thise of the antebellum American South, or those of the Ghiscari slavers. But forced servants of the conquerors they remained. 

How is this not slavery as a practical matter?

Slightly worse than feudal servants - who were part and parcel of a lord's land and worked not for wages but for the oportunity to work that land - they were not property, per se, but as prisoners they couldn't even leave their lord's land, which a mere servant could, once proven he owed no debt to his lord.

It's just a matter of naming them something other than slaves in practical terms, imo.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I have already answered to that in a previous thread: your suggestion doesn't make sense, it seems you don't understand the context, and don't bother to address me, I'm not interested. 

 

You're addressing me anyway, I am happy to not read your biased posts towards Daenerys. It's ok with me.

13 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

How is forced prisoner-of-war labour to be distinguished from slavery? The ancient world often used warfare for the express purpose of capturing the enemy so that he could be put to work as a slave.

Now granted, these were not slaves like thise of the antebellum American South, or those of the Ghiscari slavers. But forced servants of the conquerors they remained. 

How is this not slavery as a practical matter?

You know what was the point right? Tywin's first question was asking why are these prisoners were not in their cell. Then they told him the situation and then he learns they have no empty cell left. Then he suggests that they can use these prisoners as labors instead of killing it. That was Tywin's solution for saving prisoner lives. To call it slavery, that must be the main objective. Tywin's intend wasn't using prisoners as workers, he just proposed that instead of killing them. I think this is quite understandable. They had no choice because they didn't have any empty cell left. And it's not like Tywin was going to keep those prisoners as workers after the war. I doubt they put a colar, chains on that prisoners or they made any mark that shows that they are slaves, we've no seen no such a thing on Arya. 

Calling this slavery to justify Daenerys's no prisoner policy is just ridiculous. There is no slavery in Westeros, and there can't be. Tywin took prisoners and he was going to if he had an empty cell, Daenerys didn't care that at all, and she was afraid of other captives would choose to be prisoners instead of bending the knee to her so she starts to burn them alive if they don't bend the knee. Even Tywin was better than Daenerys. Let alone people like Robb Stark.

Edited by RYShh

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5 hours ago, RYShh said:

Viserys abused himself due to his exile, it wasn't ease for him to live in Essos, he still look after her sister, you think Daenerys could survive without Viserys? He taught Daenerys everything he knows about Westeros, she wouldn't even know who they are and where they come from if not for Viserys probably. Daenerys was essentially going to marry with Viserys due to Targaryen incest tradition, so that's also part of their family tradition.  Selling daughters and sisters happens in Westeros as well, not sure how it's a crime.

He told her that 40.000 thing after she wanted to disobey Viserys not before. Anyway, Viserys tried to beat her twice, and failed twice. When did she say he beat her consistently in the show? I don't remember. I see no reason for her to let them kill him by burning his head, she should've asked that they should take him as prisoner, or least don't look and feel sorry for your kin as Jorah suggested. Viserys deserved to die, that doesn't mean Daenerys shouldn't show any emotion and not feel sorry for him. You talked about Lady Tarbeck and Tywin, this is exactly like that one. So the point stands.

"You don't want wake the dragon do you?"

If he had a grievance with Khal Drogo, he should have taken it up with him, rather than threatening a defenceless teenager.  He was a coward as well as a bully.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, RYShh said:

You're addressing me anyway, I am happy to not read your biased posts towards Daenerys. It's ok with me.

You know what was the point right? Tywin's first question was asking why are these prisoners were not in their cell. Then they told him the situation and then he learns they have no empty cell left. Then he suggests that they can use these prisoners as labors instead of killing it. That was Tywin's solution for saving prisoner lives. To call it slavery, that must be the main objective. Tywin's intend wasn't using prisoners as workers, he just proposed that instead of killing them. I think this is quite understandable. They had no choice because they didn't have any empty cell left. And it's not like Tywin was going to keep those prisoners as workers after the war. I doubt they put a colar, chains on that prisoners or they made any mark that shows that they are slaves, we've no seen no such a thing on Arya. 

Calling this slavery to justify Daenerys's no prisoner policy is just ridiculous. There is no slavery in Westeros, and there can't be. Tywin took prisoners and he was going to if he had an empty cell, Daenerys didn't care that at all, and she was afraid of other captives would choose to be prisoners instead of bending the knee to her so she starts to burn them alive if they don't bend the knee. Even Tywin was better than Daenerys. Let alone people like Robb Stark.

Ser Gregor Clegane subsequently murdered all the prisoners a Harrenhall..  So, at every level, they fared far worse than people who bent the knee to Dany.

Edited by SeanF

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Ser Gregor Clegane subsequently murdered all the prisoners a Harrenhall..  So, at every level, they fared far worse than people who bent the knee to Dany.

Daenerys was having Grey Worm executing prisoners after they had surrendered so I fail to understand your point. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Daenerys was having Grey Worm executing prisoners after they had surrendered so I fail to understand your point. 

The argument upthread was that the Lannisters treated prisoners more humanely than Dany did.  The soldiers who surrendered to her after the Goldroad fared far better than the prisoners at Harrenhall.

Edited by SeanF

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The argument upthread was that the Lannisters treated prisoners more. Humanely than Dany did

Tough call considering Tywin’s association with sadistic folks like the Bloody Mummers, The Mountain, and then orchestrating The Red Wedding.  I have no love for him at all even though Charles Dance as Tywin in the TV series did some fine acting and was decent towards Ayra. I thought he was emotionally abusive to his children too.  He might have stopped some atrocities at Harrenhal when he arrived but he allowed far too many others to continue beginning with letting Gregor Clegane burn the Riverlands after Tyrion was taken by Catelyn Stark. The Martells in Dorne thought he was a pretty bad dude too.

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

It looks to me like Meereen was in pretty good shape by the end of Season 6.  The people were free and their enemies were beaten.  Job done.  Life for the majority was much better than it was pre-Dany.

As to the Night's King, Arya killed him, but could never have hoped to succeed without the efforts of Dany and her army.

And, if she'd left Jon & Co. In the lurch, North of the Wall, wouldn't that just be another black mark in the eyes of her critics?

 

Killing the masters solved nothing. More would come to replace them. There was a civil uprising which she failed to stop. I think the city fell back to the slavers the moment she left for Westeros with her armies as there was no one left to stop them and Dario would probably be on the run somewhere. The common folk also revolted against her. She executed a slave when the people were asking for her to forgive him for killing a noble. They got angry at her when she didn’t listen and started a revolt. So not a job very well done. Using nukes to force a population into submission only works as long as you are present. 

How so? Dany’s presence had no effect. The Night King reached Bran anyway. The same ending would repeat once again.

If Dany wouldn’t agree to help Jon he wouldn’t go on that wight hunt altogether, thus needing no one to rescue him

 

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ser Gregor Clegane subsequently murdered all the prisoners a Harrenhall..  So, at every level, they fared far worse than people who bent the knee to Dany.

Who is talking about Gregor? :blink: I was talking about Tywin. If you are going to change the subject whenever you want you can stop replying.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The argument upthread was that the Lannisters treated prisoners more humanely than Dany did.  The soldiers who surrendered to her after the Goldroad fared far better than the prisoners at Harrenhall.

I didn't talk about Lannisters, I said Tywin. Stark soldiers also committed crimes from time to time, no one could control that in a war time. The point is Tywin took prisoners, Daenerys did not, even ''evil'' Tywin was better than Daenerys, like it or not.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

"You don't want wake the dragon do you?"

If he had a grievance with Khal Drogo, he should have taken it up with him, rather than threatening a defenceless teenager.  He was a coward as well as a bully.

Did you see me saying Viserys shouldn't die or he was not guilty? I am explaining how ruthless Daenerys really is, and how she looks at her own brother's eyes when they burns his head alive, And you're talking about how vile and worthless Viserys is, as if I said otherwise.

No one said otherwise. The point is she could've wanted Drogo to punish Viserys in a different way, she didn't. She didn't even blink when they burned her brother's head.

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Posted (edited)

Who does Ser Gregor take his orders from?

Tywin doesn't get a pass for acting via Clegane.  

Edited by SeanF

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Who doe Ser Gregor take his orders from?

Tywin doesn't get a pass for acting via Clegane?

Tywin didn't tell him to kill the prisoners...  As we've seen when he first came to Harrenhal, he asked what's going on, then he stopped.

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