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Areisius

What was the purpose of Jon Snow?

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

It doesn't matter.  Tywin condoned it, just as he condoned the murder of Elia and every other atrocity that Ser Gregor carried out on his behalf.  

Prior to the Kings Landing inferno, Dany never perpetrated the kinds of atrocities that both Lannisters and Starks carried out in the Riverlands.

Right and it is even worse in the books. Sometimes I wonder how Tyrion came up with those numbers he did about Daenerys killing more than all the rest of them.   

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5 hours ago, Raebo said:

What does this stupid back and forth have to do with the OP?

This thread has turned into the the worst thread I have seen on this forum.  If you need more than 3 post to prove your point, it is time to give it up.

So true.  It seems like we are going in circles. 

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On 6/16/2019 at 12:14 PM, Areisius said:

That doesn't surprise me. You have no answer to my statement because your nonsense statements have no ground to stand on.

Or you could elaborate on your post in order to provide some measure of clarity. If clarity is a possible outcome. 

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I got it. 

Jon’s purpose is to take all the bitter in the ending, so Tyrion, Sansa, Bran, Arya and a pu pu platter of side characters can get all the sweet. 

....Except for Grey Worm (death by butterfly toxin) and Gilly (kicked to the curb while pregnant). 

“It’s not a Disney ending the main hero ends up miserable as a disgraced criminal in exile....who cares 90% of the surviving characters don’t face consequences for their actions and live happily ever after.”

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3 hours ago, King Wyman said:

I got it. 

Jon’s purpose is to take all the bitter in the ending, so Tyrion, Sansa, Bran, Arya and a pu pu platter of side characters can get all the sweet. 

....Except for Grey Worm (death by butterfly toxin) and Gilly (kicked to the curb while pregnant). 

“It’s not a Disney ending the main hero ends up miserable as a disgraced criminal in exile....who cares 90% of the surviving characters don’t face consequences for their actions and live happily ever after.”

Well it’s not a miserable ending if you think about it this way that Tormund and the wildlings although underdeveloped are his best friends. 

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9 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Well it’s not a miserable ending if you think about it this way that Tormund and the wildlings although underdeveloped are his best friends. 

Tormund was....but do you honestly think he knew any other show Wildings name, let alone be “best friends” with them? 

Book Jon knew more Wildings than show Jon, and never once does he think how much happier he’d be if he lived with them. He doesn’t even like most of them. He only ever thinks about taking Ygritte and Val to WF. 

You’re also ignoring Jon’s goals. Which were to make a (positive) name for himself and rise above the bastard sterotypes (lusty and treacherous). 

Not be an exiled oathbreaking kinslayer who killed the love of his life in the most bastard way possible. That will eat at him until the day he dies.

Also, Jon was wearing the black at the end. He’s a member of the NW.

 

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On 6/17/2019 at 8:22 PM, King Wyman said:

I got it. 

Jon’s purpose is to take all the bitter in the ending, so Tyrion, Sansa, Bran, Arya and a pu pu platter of side characters can get all the sweet. 

....Except for Grey Worm (death by butterfly toxin) and Gilly (kicked to the curb while pregnant). 

“It’s not a Disney ending the main hero ends up miserable as a disgraced criminal in exile....who cares 90% of the surviving characters don’t face consequences for their actions and live happily ever after.”

So Lord of the Rings with Jon as Frodo 

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On 6/29/2019 at 9:53 AM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

So Lord of the Rings with Jon as Frodo 

Dany was Frodo, no?

She was the one with the madness/temptation of power plot the Frodo’s and Rand’s go through, she just didn’t overcome it like they did.

Jon will be posted up at the Wall for a few decades before dying of old age, not sure how that equals Frodo traumatically sailing off to die. 

I’m sorry, but too much of the ending feels like fan service (Bronn, Sam, Gendry) or unearned happy endings (Tyrion, Bran, Sansa). 

You can’t throw all the bitter on one character, and give the rest feel-good Disney endings and call it bittersweet. 

Frodo wasn’t the only character sailing to his death at the end. 

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9 hours ago, King Wyman said:

She was the one with the madness/temptation of power plot the Frodo’s and Rand’s go through, she just didn’t overcome it like they did.

 

Lots of characters in LOTR were tempted by power. Dany could be Galadriel if she took the ring. Or Gollum because she's obsessed with her precious throne. 

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11 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Lots of characters in LOTR were tempted by power. Dany could be Galadriel if she took the ring. Or Gollum because she's obsessed with her precious throne. 

I see her more as Frodo or Rand from WoT, but if both of those characters’ loved ones pulled away.

She had too much development/screen time to be Gollum or Galadriel. She’s a main character.

Her book counterpart is also far more reluctant than Show Dany was.

Definitely less obsessed as well, but starting to crack under pressure/obligation. Which is something the show never really touched on until the end for some reason. 

Guess they wanted it to be a surprise to casuals when most book fans are just like wtf took you so long? 

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On 6/16/2019 at 11:37 AM, RYShh said:

It's Drogo, not Drogon. Drogo and Daenerys were married and Dothraki culture is different when it comes to that it's not even rape for Drogo probably, then she managed to deal with that Dothraki culture. This is not comparable to Joffrey's behaviors at all, showing Sansa Ned Stark's head, and other kind of things he did to her. This is show forum you're talking about the books, there are many things happened differently in the books, this is not the place right? As I said, even Drogo isn't comparable to Joffrey, and all we know Viserys ''tried'' to beat Daenerys twice in the show and he failed twice, that's all we know. Joffrey never failed at it. Also it's Ramsay, not Ramsey. As I said, nothing compares to Ramsay cutting Sansa's body, it seems you don't understand this simple fact so I need to repeat it for you.

You pointing out my typos just shows you have no argument. It doesn't matter if we used the the books or the show for our character reference Sansa's hardships are no where close to Dany's even when you add D&D's Ramsey plot line.

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On 6/17/2019 at 4:47 PM, John Meta said:

Or you could elaborate on your post in order to provide some measure of clarity. If clarity is a possible outcome. 

You talk out of the side of your neck and show no evidence to back up your claims about Dany, Jon, and Sansa. I produce evidence from the book and show and you go and pull a straw man out of your ass and start making up shit. It is clear that you don't have a leg to stand on in these arguments. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Areisius said:

Sansa's hardships are no where close to Dany's even when you add D&D's Ramsey plot line.

You do have a point here, no matter how hard Sansa's life got, she always lived in a castle and wore silk. Dothraki lived dirt poor and wore rags, furthermore, Dany didn't even get a stable childhood like Sansa did. Moreover, from a blood prestige perspective, Dany was the blood of Old Valyria (of the 40 Dragon Lords) and daughter of a King, so her being sold off to a Barbarian warlord like Drogo (however mighty as he may be) was the pinnacle of humiliation. It's like Roman Emperor's daughter being given to some Germanic tribal chief. Dany's ability to survive brutal Dothraki culture is more a testament of her resilience and resourcefulness rather than that they were a tolerable bunch.

 

Edited by Br16

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Posted (edited)
On 6/17/2019 at 12:11 AM, Areisius said:

Sansa can't hold a candle to what Dany has been through.

Fair assessment. Also, Sansa brought most of her suffering onto herself, Ned was going to send them to safety. Dany was basically born into a mess, with no choice. Also we are not sure what exactly Ramsay did to Sansa's body, we only have a few figurative statements to go on, so the more brutal estimates are merely opinion and not facts. 

Edited by Br16

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2 hours ago, Br16 said:

You do have a point here, no matter how hard Sansa's life got, she always lived in a castle and wore silk. Dothraki lived dirt poor and wore rags, furthermore, Dany didn't even get a stable childhood like Sansa did. Moreover, from a blood prestige perspective, Dany was the blood of Old Valyria (of the 40 Dragon Lords) and daughter of a King, so her being sold off to a Barbarian warlord like Drogo (however mighty as he may be) was the pinnacle of humiliation. It's like Roman Emperor's daughter being given to some Germanic tribal chief. Dany's ability to survive brutal Dothraki culture is more a testament of her resilience and resourcefulness rather than that they were a tolerable bunch.

 

I don't think there's a contest in suffering between Sansa and Dany.  Both of them had to endure horrors.  

The only difference that matters between them is that Sansa won, and Dany lost.  Sansa aimed a shot which brought her down. 

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16 hours ago, SeanF said:

The only difference that matters between them is that Sansa won, and Dany lost.  Sansa aimed a shot which brought her down. 

She won a crown thats true, but she relies more on fortune than craftiness. If she were smart she would not have pressed for independence as membership in the 7k is now more attractive than ever before, especially for the war torn north with less than 10k men. With elective monarchy, brother as king, protection of Kings Peace, common 7K market, and access to royal fleet, a crafty Sansa can do very well as a member of 7k and utilize central resources to subsidize northern reconstruction. She might even be able to pack Kings Landing officialdom with Northerners. But now, on her own, she'll have to rebuild the north on a shoestring budget and deal with future waves of Ironborn/pirate/slaver raids on her own and nobody south would have a duty to help a now foreign country. Imo, Sansa's was a Pyrric victory.

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17 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think there's a contest in suffering between Sansa and Dany.  Both of them had to endure horrors.   

That's how the game is played. When it comes to stans of female characters, they play the 'Suffering Olympics'. It's complete and utter nonsense and absolutely sexist. As if one's suffering is equal or worse to another's. Just accept that people suffer, period. What matters is how they deal with it and how it changes (or not) them as a person. Sansa and Dany have both suffered, THE END. Neither one gets a prize for suffering more. Disgusting that there is a competition for this in the first place and it's used to defend someone being a fan or hater of a character.

'Hey that kid was only beaten and psychologically abused. But that kid over there was beaten, psychologically and sexually abused. Clearly the first abused kid didn't suffer much.' That's what people here seem to be arguing. Like I said, disgusting.

1 hour ago, Br16 said:

She won a crown thats true, but she relies more on fortune than craftiness.

So many characters on this show got by with pure luck. What's your point? Jon would be dead ten times over if not for plot armor. Same for Arya. Same for many characters. Most characters on the show are dumb and rely on luck. The luck being that their enemy makes a mistake or hoping that they are dumber than you. Dany would have died in early S2 if she didn't have dragons (pure luck) and she was never crafty either (except one time). Tyrion's cleverness was overstated even in the early Seasons as he never did much in terms of cleverness. Tywin lucked out that Robb was an idiot outside the battlefield.

1 hour ago, Br16 said:

If she were smart she would not have pressed for independence as membership in the 7k is now more attractive than ever before, especially for the war torn north with less than 10k men. With elective monarchy, brother as king, protection of Kings Peace, common 7K market, and access to royal fleet, a crafty Sansa can do very well as a member of 7k and utilize central resources to subsidize northern reconstruction. She might even be able to pack Kings Landing officialdom with Northerners. But now, on her own, she'll have to rebuild the north on a shoestring budget and deal with future waves of Ironborn/pirate/slaver raids on her own and nobody south would have a duty to help a now foreign country. Imo, Sansa's was a Pyrric victory.

Do you honestly expect Sansa to consider all this when written by dumb fucks like D&D? You can't write a character like that if you yourself lack the capability to think of that. And lets face it, the only reason they gave Sansa a crown is because they thought it would take the sting off the fact that they have turned the only 2 other female rulers in the ENTIRE SHOW into mad queens. And they couldn't put Sansa on the 7k throne because it's not GRRM's story and the previous Queens were mad (oh irony). Except it's still sexist because Sansa only gets to be Queen when a) one 'brother' is in an even higher position and b) the other 'brother' who was chosen over her previously disqualified himself and landed in a penal colony. It's a consolation prize on every level, for the viewer and the character. Sense or logic or anything of the sort have nothing to do with it.

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1 hour ago, Br16 said:

She won a crown thats true, but she relies more on fortune than craftiness. If she were smart she would not have pressed for independence as membership in the 7k is now more attractive than ever before, especially for the war torn north with less than 10k men. With elective monarchy, brother as king, protection of Kings Peace, common 7K market, and access to royal fleet, a crafty Sansa can do very well as a member of 7k and utilize central resources to subsidize northern reconstruction. She might even be able to pack Kings Landing officialdom with Northerners. But now, on her own, she'll have to rebuild the north on a shoestring budget and deal with future waves of Ironborn/pirate/slaver raids on her own and nobody south would have a duty to help a now foreign country. Imo, Sansa's was a Pyrric victory.

As @Mystical says, that's down to the writing.  Sansa 's move could have been disastrous for her and Jon.  It's one reason why we needed more episodes, to show the breakdown in relations between the Starks and Dany, and to get an idea whether Bran and Sansa were just using Dany for their own purposes (to fight the Dead and Cersei) before destroying her.

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Posted (edited)

Dany kind of destroyed herself by her own obsessions. If Cersei killed thousands of people like Dany did, and had to be killed before she inflicted more damage, we wouldnt be talking about how a rival family destroyed her. Most Greek tragic heroes fall because of their own doing. 

That said Jon played a role (obviously) and has his own version of Greek tragedy. I dont think its that he had to kill "the love of his life" but that he fell for the illusion that Dany was a good person and made mistakes in trusting Targaryens after everyone warned him about it. Bookwise, there are three lines that foreshadow his mistakes as they played out in the show:

1. Joking about a dragon warming up the Wall (and getting corrected on how dangerous they are)

2. Stannis warning him that beauty can be treacherous

3. Stannis and Benjen correcting him about his idealization of the Young Dragon 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 7/4/2019 at 4:58 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

1. Joking about a dragon warming up the Wall (and getting corrected on how dangerous they are)

2. Stannis warning him that beauty can be treacherous

3. Stannis and Benjen correcting him about his idealization of the Young Dragon 

The first two I totally get. Forgive me if my memory of the Young Dragon's story is hazey, but how does that apply?

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