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Areisius

What was the purpose of Jon Snow?

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24 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Without Jon rallying the forces of the Wildlings and the Northmen they couldn't take Winterfell. The Knights of the Vale won the battle against the Boltons, but they attacked them from behind, I doubt they could take 6.000 Boltons men in a straight up fight in the North, or in a siege, they needed a distraction to take out them and Jon provided that distraction for them. They couldn't even siege Winterfell and couldn't take it without that Giant -Wun Wun- (who came to fight for Jon) helping them.

Then, without Jon's and Sam's knowledge (Jon sends Sam to learn about Dragonglass) of how to fight with the White Walkers, they would've no chance to win against the Night King's army , no one knew anything about Dragonglass and fire kills the wights, even if they did, no one would listen them and it would be too late to fight with the army of the dead, yes Jon didn't kill the Night King, Arya did, (and she came to Winterfell because Jon was KitN otherwise she was going to KL to kill Cersei) and without Jon they couldn't even get close to fight with the army of the dead, then the Southern kingdoms would fall one by one and not even Daenerys's dragons could stop that large army of the dead without the knowledge of how to fight with them.

As for R+L=J, it was not for Jon winning the Iron Throne, he never wanted it, he didn't even want to be KitN despite he loves the North, no way he would want to rule the Southern kingdoms from an iron chair. The revelation of R+L=J was for showing Daenerys's true face to Jon and to us to the viewers, he has seen and we've seen that Daenerys is a tyrant who would usurp her family members right for power. Before she gets into power, Jon sacrifced himself once again and stops the Tyrant.

The thing is Bran didn't want to be king either and Tyrion didn't want to be Hand, so was there something wrong with Jon getting the throne?

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30 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

The thing is Bran didn't want to be king either and Tyrion didn't want to be Hand, so was there something wrong with Jon getting the throne?

''TYRION: Giving you to the Unsullied would start a war. Letting you walk free would start a war. So our new king has chosen to send you to the Night's Watch.

JON: There's still a Night's Watch?

TYRION: The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men.  You shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. The Unsullied wanted your head of course, but Grey Worm has accepted the justice of a life sentence. Sansa and Arya wanted you freed, but they understand our new king needs to make peace. No one is very happy. Which means it's a good compromise, I suppose.'' 

They didn't want Tyrion's head, because Tyrion didn't kill their Queen, Jon did.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

The thing is Bran didn't want to be king either and Tyrion didn't want to be Hand, so was there something wrong with Jon getting the throne?

The thing is Bran who is now the 3YR was meant to be king all along.  He saw it in the future and was just making sure that everyone was exactly where they were suppose to be to insure that future came to be. He told the council that is why he had come all that way. That is why he told Jon he was exactly where he was suppose to be.  That is why he didn’t expose Jamie as the one who pushed him out of the window because he needed Jaime to go back to King’s Landing and for Tyrion to betray Dany by releasing him. Once imprisoned he knew Tyrion would convince Jon  to realize Dany’s true nature and he could do something about it. Tyrion gave the dagger to Ayra so she would kill the Night King and that is why he was so calm as the NK approached him as if he knew he would survive. He set up Sam to tell Jon about his true parentage so as to cause conflict between Dany and Jon and his eventual rejection of her.   I get that you don’t care for how things out. It certainly was no fairytale ending but it was never meant to be.  It was meant to show us the conflicts and struggles of individual characters and their journey to the final end point which was Bran being the greenseer whose responsibility as the 3YR was to protect the realm from the ravages and destruction of ice, fire, and tyrants.  At least this is how I see the story. Maybe it wasn’t fleshed out enough narratively for the TV series as it should have been but then again maybe it was suppose to make us think a little deeper about things. 

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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On 6/4/2019 at 12:25 AM, Areisius said:

After watching this last season I'm baffled by what his purpose was? He serves the Night's watch, gets murdered by them, gets revived, retakes Winterfell, meets Dany and convinces her to help him defend the north from the White Walkers, finds out he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark, defends Winterfell from the White Walkers, fights at Kings Landing, Kills Dany, and gets banished back to the Night's watch. He does all these things to end up back at square one. I have never witnessed a main character have such an anticlimactic ending. WTF?

His point - in the TV show - was simply to do all the things you mentioned, leading up to the most important of all, breaking the wheel by killing Dany and ending the Game of Thrones.    Though maybe it wasn't all that clear.

In the books, of course, it may be different!

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13 hours ago, Areisius said:

Jon is nothing like Siegfried. Jon had a purpose to unite different houses for one cause to defeat the Night King. He get's his story hijacked in the TV Show by Arya and does nothing heroic in this season like he has done in the past seasons. 

No.  I am just using him as an example of a character you think is going to have the hero ending but in the end gets nothing.  I chose him because of the Siegfried/Sigurd character in mythology.  Siegfried/Sigurd the dragonslayer is usually depicted from a family who's symbol is the wolf.  At some point in their past they sometimes could put on wolf cloaks and actually turn into wolves.  Often they are descended from Odin who uses ravens to see the world, one of whom is named Memory and the other Thought.  Since they are a dragon slaying family if you look in their eye you will see the dragon.  Wagner's Siegfried is just an example who drives his aunt really nuts when they fall in love (also when she leaps in the funeral pyre to destroy the ring it lights the capitol on fire destroying it which is particular to that version of Sigurd as far as I am aware).  I could have also gone with Aragorn, who is another Siegfried/Sigurd mythology based character.  Fantasy authors love to put characters with aspects based on several different mythical characters in their works.

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3 hours ago, RYShh said:

''TYRION: Giving you to the Unsullied would start a war. Letting you walk free would start a war. So our new king has chosen to send you to the Night's Watch.

Thanks for quoting.

So it turns out Jon is used as a tool to kill Dany? 

People use the fact that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna to state that he has better claim than Dany and that he is their rightful king, which drives Dany crazy

Then Jon is convinced to kill Dany his lover and for what?? Being exiled?? I mean getting rid of her is what they want and I'm pretty sure they are all happy that she's dead (except her people) so now his supporters should stand for him, call him their king, but instead they want to make peace with the Dothraki and Grey Worm and decide to have a new ruler immediately. 

It's like 

Hey Jon you r the rightful king
Jon: ok imma tell my aunt to surprise her
Dany: dont tell anyone Jon!
Jon: ok bae but lemme tell my sisters I own them the truth (didnt he think about Ned??)
Dany: u tell them and the whole world knows 
Jon: Nah they wont cuz u r my queen =0))
Sansa (after hearing the truth): *tells Tyrion* (dont know if she told him to keep secret or not but I think she didnt)
Tyrion: *tells Varys* (master of whisperers) 
Dany: got mad 
Tyrion to Jon: Damn u have to kill her she is crazy af
Jon killed Dany
Everyone: great now we need a new king cuz if Jon is King not everyone is happy

for me ss8 is like that
 

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5 hours ago, RYShh said:

Without Jon rallying the forces of the Wildlings and the Northmen they couldn't take Winterfell. The Knights of the Vale won the battle against the Boltons, but they attacked them from behind, I doubt they could take 6.000 Boltons men in a straight up fight in the North, or in a siege, they needed a distraction to take out them and Jon provided that distraction for them. They couldn't even siege Winterfell and couldn't take it without that Giant -Wun Wun- (who came to fight for Jon) helping them.

Then, without Jon's and Sam's knowledge (Jon sends Sam to learn about Dragonglass) of how to fight with the White Walkers, they would've no chance to win against the Night King's army , no one knew anything about Dragonglass and fire kills the wights, even if they did, no one would listen them and it would be too late to fight with the army of the dead, yes Jon didn't kill the Night King, Arya did, (and she came to Winterfell because Jon was KitN otherwise she was going to KL to kill Cersei) and without Jon they couldn't even get close to fight with the army of the dead, then the Southern kingdoms would fall one by one and not even Daenerys's dragons could stop that large army of the dead without the knowledge of how to fight with them.

As for R+L=J, it was not for Jon winning the Iron Throne, he never wanted it, he didn't even want to be KitN despite he loves the North, no way he would want to rule the Southern kingdoms from an iron chair. The revelation of R+L=J was for showing Daenerys's true face to Jon and to us to the viewers, he has seen and we've seen that Daenerys is a tyrant who would usurp her family members right for power. Before she gets into power, Jon sacrifced himself once again and stops the Tyrant.

I love this so much and agree wholeheartedly.  As much as so many people wanted him to be, Jon Snow was never going to be Aragorn.  He was never going to be king.  He was instrumental in all things that occurred, but he was never going to sit on a metal chair and govern.  Seriously, can you picture Jon Snow governing?  I can't.  Ranging in the north.  Protecting innocents. Being the defense against all evil.  Yes.  Governing?  No.

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13 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

You say him ending up with the NW is isolating him but the fact is everyone of the characters is alone and must be feeling suicidal by that logic. Arya gives big talk about “the lone wolf dies but the pack survives” but gets out at the first opportune moment and is sailing the seas all alone and possibly to her death as no one who has gone in that direction ever returned.  

Sansa goes through rape and sexual and psychological torture and in the end there is not a single member of her family or even a friend like Brienne at her coronation. Even the Lannisters were better than this. Jamie attended Cersei’s coronation. What happened to all her talk about bringing her family together?

Bran has the personality of a rock and does nothing but warg around all day. Doesn’t rule or do anything but sit in his chair and look at the sky. 

Brienne ends up all alone after Jamie dumps her. She goes back to her stoic demeanour and likely won’t marry again as Jamie left her a snivelling wreck. 

Tyrion’s family is dead. He has to keep company of a mute and after what Dany did and him being her hand that will leave him scarred for the rest of his life. He also caused Jamie’s death. 

You would think the Starks would live together at least for some time after years and years of separation and mental fatigue but they just fuck off the moment they meet. I find the Lannisters to be a much better family then these new Starks. They stuck together and lived together (Jamie actually doesn’t leave the kings guard because he wants to stay with Cersei) and Jamie goes back to die together. Tyrion refuses to leave KL back in Season 3 as his family was at KL. Cersei outright refuses to go to Highgarden. Now this is a real family. 

well yeah, scratch under the surface and the triumphant music during the montage, and all these people who are broken inside, must have som form of PTSP, they all choose isolation from the ones they love. Horrible story.

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1 hour ago, oggy1324 said:

Thanks for quoting.

So it turns out Jon is used as a tool to kill Dany? 

People use the fact that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna to state that he has better claim than Dany and that he is their rightful king, which drives Dany crazy

Then Jon is convinced to kill Dany his lover and for what?? Being exiled?? I mean getting rid of her is what they want and I'm pretty sure they are all happy that she's dead (except her people) so now his supporters should stand for him, call him their king, but instead they want to make peace with the Dothraki and Grey Worm and decide to have a new ruler immediately. 

It's like 

Hey Jon you r the rightful king
Jon: ok imma tell my aunt to surprise her
Dany: dont tell anyone Jon!
Jon: ok bae but lemme tell my sisters I own them the truth (didnt he think about Ned??)
Dany: u tell them and the whole world knows 
Jon: Nah they wont cuz u r my queen =0))
Sansa (after hearing the truth): *tells Tyrion* (dont know if she told him to keep secret or not but I think she didnt)
Tyrion: *tells Varys* (master of whisperers) 
Dany: got mad 
Tyrion to Jon: Damn u have to kill her she is crazy af
Jon killed Dany
Everyone: great now we need a new king cuz if Jon is King not everyone is happy

for me ss8 is like that
 

Perfection. 

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4 hours ago, kjl473 said:

No.  I am just using him as an example of a character you think is going to have the hero ending but in the end gets nothing.  I chose him because of the Siegfried/Sigurd character in mythology.  Siegfried/Sigurd the dragonslayer is usually depicted from a family who's symbol is the wolf.  At some point in their past they sometimes could put on wolf cloaks and actually turn into wolves.  Often they are descended from Odin who uses ravens to see the world, one of whom is named Memory and the other Thought.  Since they are a dragon slaying family if you look in their eye you will see the dragon.  Wagner's Siegfried is just an example who drives his aunt really nuts when they fall in love (also when she leaps in the funeral pyre to destroy the ring it lights the capitol on fire destroying it which is particular to that version of Sigurd as far as I am aware).  I could have also gone with Aragorn, who is another Siegfried/Sigurd mythology based character.  Fantasy authors love to put characters with aspects based on several different mythical characters in their works.

Oh, that makes sense. I see it now.

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1 hour ago, Han Snow said:

well yeah, scratch under the surface and the triumphant music during the montage, and all these people who are broken inside, must have som form of PTSP, they all choose isolation from the ones they love. Horrible story.

I agree.  I felt that the ending was essentially a tragedy.  Pretty much all the principle characters lost in the end, even the ones who "won".  Bran became king but lost his humanity.  Tyrion was "sentenced" to be hand of the king but he is going to be tormented because what happened the last time he was.  Sansa becomes queen but she looses Jon forever because of it.  I suspect that was the very last thing she wanted.  My first impression of Arya wanting to go into the west was was afraid to be around people yet because of the person she had turned herself into.  

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2 hours ago, Han Snow said:

well yeah, scratch under the surface and the triumphant music during the montage, and all these people who are broken inside, must have som form of PTSP, they all choose isolation from the ones they love. Horrible story.

Yeah the music does a very convincing job of lying to you. Dany being s villain comes out of thin air according to some but look at the scenes where she burns Astapor, it makes you feel pumped and excited. Without the music you would feel the same as how you felt when she blew up Kings Landing. They conveniently don’t have any music there which makes you feel horrified but if they had used the dragon theme there, you would feel great. 

The montage is sad. Play it without the music running. Just the sound effects of the characters. You would find the ending tragic. 

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To murder Daenerys, so that Bran and Sansa could move onwards and upwards.

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On 6/4/2019 at 2:25 AM, Areisius said:

After watching this last season I'm baffled by what his purpose was? He serves the Night's watch, gets murdered by them, gets revived, retakes Winterfell, meets Dany and convinces her to help him defend the north from the White Walkers, finds out he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark, defends Winterfell from the White Walkers, fights at Kings Landing, Kills Dany, and gets banished back to the Night's watch. He does all these things to end up back at square one. I have never witnessed a main character have such an anticlimactic ending. WTF?

The character is a disappointment specially for the fans that were expecting the weight of Jon’s revelation to be critical for the WW, but it seemed it only served to doom Dany. 

Honestly I think he had been overestimated as a character by the fans (unfortunately). And so his legacy, didn’t mean a thing other than being popular and confusing the fans into a pseudo debate about him being the rightful air. There was no rightful air after all since Bran was to sit on the throne. Complete idiotic story. It could be him or anyone in his shoes, even Dany falling for Jamie would do the job. Lol. 

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To bait dany into saving the North so he could then reject and kill her afterwards.

Nothing else he did mattered or had any real effect on the story. Pretty terrible "hero".

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7 hours ago, Essan said:

His point - in the TV show - was simply to do all the things you mentioned, leading up to the most important of all, breaking the wheel by killing Dany and ending the Game of Thrones.    Though maybe it wasn't all that clear.

In the books, of course, it may be different!

LMAO!

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6 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

To bait dany into saving the North so he could then reject and kill her afterwards.

Nothing else he did mattered or had any real effect on the story. Pretty terrible "hero".

Exactly. 

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Jon's purpose was to show us a good and honorable man, the prince who was promised whose song is the song of ice and fire and who saved Westeros from both those existential threats at great personal sacrifice even unto giving his own life.

He's living proof that not everyone with the blood of the dragon need be poisoned by power madness and that all that really matters is the family who reared you. Be true to that and you can save the world. Which he did.

Unfortunately he's also proof that raging rabble rousers will always rally around trying to forcibly thrust some poor guy up on a pedestal about what THEY think he should be and do so that they cause unending strife and bloodshed for their pathetic monarchist glories. Thank the old gods qua his brother Bran that he's been given the gift of peace and freedom from that explosive nonsense in recognition of his indispensable service to the realm. 

Jon was raised from the dead to fulfill his destiny. If the gods had had anything so awesome and glorious planned out for certain other dead characters as they had for Jon, then they would have resurrected those people too. 

That they didn't tells you everything you need to know about their purpose compared with Jon's. 

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The ultimate chekov's gun, the much talked about lineage meant nothing really, so bad storytelling.

Purpose subverted expectations really. 

As for the ending, it makes no sense for the remaining wildlings to go back to beyond the wall. They wanted out of there for better lands south of the wall. They got them, they own them, and there is little population in the whole North now. It's silly. Of course magic wall broken and no wildlings also means a night's watch idea is also ridiculous.

The real problem is you are trying to make sense of what are just throwaway ideas from dumb and dumber. You would have to discuss it in the book forum.

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1 hour ago, Dragonslack said:

The ultimate chekov's gun, the much talked about lineage meant nothing really, so bad storytelling.

To the contrary: it meant everything. Just for one it proved that Dany was so power-mad that when she realized that the Iron Throne wasn't really hers by right the way she had always claimed, she showed her true colors by trying to plough on ahead and get Jon to support her lie about it.

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