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Areisius

What was the purpose of Jon Snow?

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21 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

They did make him a total dolt though. He certainly wasn't siding with the Starks when she threatened to liberate Winterfell or kill Sansa for spilling the beans on his identity. The astounding fact is that if Tyrion and Arya were not there at Kings Landing, Jon wouldn't have killed Dany despite the devastation he witnessed.

Eh, I don't know, not wanting to kill and betray Daenerys doesn't make him a dolt I think. He did the right thing, but it's still a betrayal and killing a woman who loves him and it's kinslaying. He must be persuaded by other people before doing it, it was really a tough decision.

 

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8 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Eh, I don't know, not wanting to kill and betray Daenerys doesn't make him a dolt I think. He did the right thing, but it's still a betrayal and killing a woman who loves him and it's kinslaying. He must be persuaded by other people before doing it, it was really a tough decision.

 

She blew up Kings Landing in front of him, she was talking about "liberating" Winterfell which would mean blowing it up too. She was talking about burning Quarth making good on her promise to burn it back in Seasom 3. She was going to go all over the world repeating this devastation. He was still going to accept it. Such a person needs to be killed no matter who she is. How was he justifying it in his mind is beyond me. 

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On 6/10/2019 at 8:02 PM, Areisius said:

I listed all of the things Jon has done that were leading him to...nothing. D&D made his character irrelevant in S8. He did all of these heroic things in the previous seasons for it to be all for not in the finale. 

I honestly cannot decipher what it is you're trying to say here.

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6 hours ago, John Meta said:

I honestly cannot decipher what it is you're trying to say here.

Apart from uniting the wildlings and the North, he was irrelevant to the story. He didn’t fight a single white walker.His real identity meant nothing. You can cut out the entire Aegon plot and nothing changes. Dany would still go mad. 

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1 minute ago, Kaapstad said:

Apart from uniting the wildlings and the North, he was irrelevant to the story. He didn’t fight a single white walker.His real identity meant nothing. You can cut out the entire Aegon plot and nothing changes. Dany would still go mad. 

I feel that having Arya pull a deus ex machina on the NK robbed Jon of his purpose. It should have been Arya dying at NK hands provoking Jon into Azor Ahai rage boss fight against NK.

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15 hours ago, King Wyman said:

I’m of the anything is better than nothing belief.

Having two main characters meet a tragic end because they couldn’t have one conversation together is awful storytelling. 

You can turn Dany heel without dragging Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Bran, Arya and Varys through the mud first. 

Dont get me wrong, show Jon is a vapid plank of wood with awful dialogue, but he comes off looking really bad in this, and I don’t think that was their intention.

He was played by Sansa, screwed over by Bran, abandoned by Arya, and unable to have any type of conversation with Dany. 

He’s an uncaring naieve idiot who chose the family that didn’t choose him back and was punished for it...when he never should have had to choose in the first place. 

They did fight for his release in King's Landing and Sansa chose him as king, both as KitN and of Westeros. They just wanted to cut Dany out of the picture, and I cant blame them. She's toxic.

Everyone has to choose a side in this story.

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15 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

She blew up Kings Landing in front of him, she was talking about "liberating" Winterfell which would mean blowing it up too. She was talking about burning Quarth making good on her promise to burn it back in Seasom 3. She was going to go all over the world repeating this devastation. He was still going to accept it. Such a person needs to be killed no matter who she is. How was he justifying it in his mind is beyond me. 

I have no idea either, its like they lobotomized Jon Snow. As far as I know, there is no book foreshadowing for him becoming a dumb war criminal. 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I have no idea either, its like they lobotomized Jon Snow. 

Kit looks very depressed in the last episodes, I mean "for real", IRL…

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19 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

She blew up Kings Landing in front of him, she was talking about "liberating" Winterfell which would mean blowing it up too. She was talking about burning Quarth making good on her promise to burn it back in Seasom 3. She was going to go all over the world repeating this devastation. He was still going to accept it. Such a person needs to be killed no matter who she is. How was he justifying it in his mind is beyond me. 

Still she didn't do anything at Winterfell yet, and King's Landing is meaningless for Jon, destroyed or not. He needed to be %100 sure before doing it, first he talked with Tyrion, then he tried to persuade her to spare people but she didn't listen, only then he kills her.

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

They did fight for his release in King's Landing and Sansa chose him as king, both as KitN and of Westeros. They just wanted to cut Dany out of the picture, and I cant blame them. She's toxic.

Everyone has to choose a side in this story.

I mean even Tywin was never going to let Tyrion be executed. Walder Frey takes offense to slights to his family despite not giving a shit about any of them as well.

And Sansa never wanted Jon as KitN. She was visibly pissed, spent most of his reign undermining him in public, and only relented when he made her Lady of Winterfell....and she went right back to undermining him the second he left. Arya even called her out on it.

She “wanted” him as king of Westeros because she thought she could get him to give her an independent north, and knew Dany wouldn’t.

She was power hungry, and was willing to manipulate/use Jon for her own gains. And Jon was too stupid to realize (it can’t be stressed enough how stupid/passive the show made Jon). 

Jon should never have had to choose because it’s weird marriage was never brought up. Like even before they met. That’s how things work in Westeros, but D&D needed to manufacture drama. 

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On 6/10/2019 at 5:15 AM, RYShh said:

Yup, I like this. Sansa > Daenerys all the way. Sansa has experienced much more abusive men (Joffrey and Ramsay) than Daenerys has ever experienced, yet she never tried to usurp Jon's right or tried to get rid of Arya despite Littlefinger's plot.

Dany has experienced far worse. Dany grew up on the run never knowing parents with an abusive brother. While Sansa had an amazing childhood up till she was 13 with two loving parents and growing up as a Lady. 

Well technically Sansa is usurping Jon's right by being Queen of the North as the entire realm supposedly belonged to Jon. At least Dany had an equal claim given that Aerys had already surpassed Rhaegar's kids to make Viserys heir. Plus she had the army to conquer KL that neither Jon nor Sansa ever had. 

I liked Sansa last season but this season I ended up disliking her behaviour towards Dany. Dany was asked by Jon to come North and help protect them. The fact that Sansa was showing her attitude was wrong. 

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5 minutes ago, Alex200 said:

Dany has experienced far worse. Dany grew up on the run never knowing parents with an abusive brother. While Sansa had an amazing childhood up till she was 13 with two loving parents and growing up as a Lady. 

Well technically Sansa is usurping Jon's right by being Queen of the North as the entire realm supposedly belonged to Jon. At least Dany had an equal claim given that Aerys had already surpassed Rhaegar's kids to make Viserys heir. Plus she had the army to conquer KL that neither Jon nor Sansa ever had. 

I liked Sansa last season but this season I ended up disliking her behaviour towards Dany. Dany was asked by Jon to come North and help protect them. The fact that Sansa was showing her attitude was wrong. 

It doesn't look like she has experienced anything worse at all. She didn't even want to marry with Drogo and she didn't even want to be a Khaleesi, it looks like she was just fine with their previous life. Viserys was abusive, but it's not like he was Ramsay. I doubt he was even Joffrey.

Sansa is usurping no one, she and Arya wanted to free Jon, but they didn't let him go. That's not Sansa's fault. She even felt sorry for it and said ''But they lost their king(who is Jon)''. Daenerys on the otherhand, couldn't even think to share the power with Jon, she was totally went mad once she learned that Jon has a better claim. Aerys did what? Dude, Varys knows all the things that happpened in the past, and he says Jon has a better claim than Daenerys, this not up to debate. How do you know Jon couldn't conquer the KL? It's not like he was going to ride a dragon, but the North and the Vale was with him. Varys, Sansa and Tyrion could persuade other regions, and since Jon was unmarried, they could won the Dorne or the Reach by using a political marriage. In the end Cersei would lose one way or another, if not she would lose the half of the country to Jon.

Jon asked her help, because everyone was going to die, not just North. What do you think was going to happen if the North loses to the army of the dead? The southern kingdoms would follow one by one, so Daenerys would rule nothing but Dragonstone in the end, Westeros would belong to Night King.

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8 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Dude, Varys knows all the things that happpened in the past, and he says Jon has a better claim than Daenerys, this not up to debate.

Everything Varys says is questionable and up to debate…

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Everything Varys says is questionable and up to debate…

According to you it is. He has no reason to lie to Tyrion, they were good friends.

Anyways Andal and Royal Targaryen inheritance laws states that the first son's children > younger sons and daughters. Especially when they choose Jon as a bastard over trueborn daughter Sansa in the North. Let alone a trueborn Targaryen male, and the first son's children. Daenerys is simply a usurper.

Edited by RYShh

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4 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Jon asked her help, because everyone was going to die, not just North. What do you think was going to happen if the North loses to the army of the dead? The southern kingdoms would follow one by one, so Daenerys would rule nothing but Dragonstone in the end, Westeros would belong to Night King.

Except Cersei didn't care about that so why should Dany? She could have waited to see if the North could deal with it.. gained more power by conquering the south and seeing if the North could have finished them off. The south also has several bodies of water and the dead can't swim so it would be much tougher for the dead to conquer the South. And Dany also had the advantage of being able to go back to Essos if they lose Westeros. There was no real tactical advantage for Dany to preempt a fight with the dead before necessary (especially before she conquered KL) other than it was the right thing to do. If I were Sansa I would be grateful that someone marched up North to try to help us while we are under attack. I certainly wouldn't have given them attitude over having to feed them when they have come to help as per the request of the King of the North. This wasn't the first time Sansa undermined Jon's authority. I don't mind Sansa doing that to be honest.. but if you want to have a go at Dany for saying she took Jon's right.. I don't think Sansa is entirely innocent of that either. 

 

15 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Dude, Varys knows all the things that happpened in the past, and he says Jon has a better claim than Daenerys, this not up to debate

But you always have to look where the information is coming from. Varys in this situation is biased because he prefers Jon to be King (because 'cocks are important')... so he is going to say as such. But the fact is that Aerys made Viserys the heir after Rhaegar's death bypassing Rhaegar's kids. So the line of succession is not clear cut. That's why Dany said Jon is the last male heir not.. that he is the heir. 

8 minutes ago, RYShh said:

It doesn't look like she has experienced anything worse at all. She didn't even want to marry with Drogo and she didn't even want to be a Khaleesi, it looks like she was just fine with their previous life. Viserys was abusive, but it's not like he was Ramsay. I doubt he was even Joffrey.

My impression he is that he was as bad if not worse than Joffrey. He told her he would be happy to let all the Dothraki and horses rape her if he had too. He also definitely used to abuse her. And then like you said she was married off to a Dothraki warlord against her will and raped. She had it far worse than Sansa. Sansa had a great childhood.. she only suffered after she went to KL. But even in KL she was relatively safe due to her status as a political prisoner. Tyrion never raped her. Then she was once again protected in the Vale. Now Ramsey was awful for sure. But given the timespan Dany has had to deal with people attempting to murder her since she was a baby. I don't think you can discount Dany's suffering. Out of all of them she is the one that had it the worst as she had never even known safety and peace. Whereas all the Stark kids had solid childhoods up to the point where the story picks them up.

 

20 minutes ago, RYShh said:

How do you know Jon couldn't conquer the KL? It's not like he was going to ride a dragon, but the North and the Vale was with him. Varys, Sansa and Tyrion could persuade other regions, and since Jon was unmarried, they could won the Dorne or the Reach by using a political marriage. In the end Cersei would lose one way or another, if not she would lose the half of the country to Jon.

Given that Jon could barely convince the North to help them reclaim Winterfell.. and that the North and the Vale had suffered serious losses in the Long Night.. I don't buy that it would be easy for Jon to capture KL. Stannis with his army at full force wasn't able to. Plus who would believe that a bastard of Ned Starks is suddenly the last Targ. Not to mention that many would see him as a breaker of his oath to the Night's watch.

I am going to be honest with you .. the problem I have is that the story in this last season is not coherently written. The sequence of events they wrote for Dany before all this would not make it likely that Jon would be able to conquer KL on his own. 

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5 minutes ago, RYShh said:

According to you it is. He has no reason to lie to Tyrion, they were good friends.

Anyways Andal and Royal Targaryen inheritance laws states that the first son's children > younger sons and daughters. Especially when they choose Jon as a bastard over trueborn daughter Sansa in the North. Let alone a trueborn Targaryen male, and the first son's children. Daenerys is simply a usurper.

The inheritance also depends on what the lord decides - like how Tywin refused to acknowledge Tyrion's claim to the Rock.

Also the Targ succession laws are not so clear cut and they aren't always followed. I mean technically Viserys should have been made king after Robert's rebellion. Its basically who has the power to force their claim. In dance of the dragons, Rhaenyra was made the heir over her brother by her father. Yet Aegon II fought against it. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Alex200 said:

Except Cersei didn't care about that so why should Dany? She could have waited to see if the North could deal with it.. gained more power by conquering the south and seeing if the North could have finished them off. The south also has several bodies of water and the dead can't swim so it would be much tougher for the dead to conquer the South. And Dany also had the advantage of being able to go back to Essos if they lose Westeros. There was no real tactical advantage for Dany to preempt a fight with the dead before necessary (especially before she conquered KL) other than it was the right thing to do. If I were Sansa I would be grateful that someone marched up North to try to help us while we are under attack. I certainly wouldn't have given them attitude over having to feed them when they have come to help as per the request of the King of the North. This wasn't the first time Sansa undermined Jon's authority. I don't mind Sansa doing that to be honest.. but if you want to have a go at Dany for saying she took Jon's right.. I don't think Sansa is entirely innocent of that either. 

 

But you always have to look where the information is coming from. Varys in this situation is biased because he prefers Jon to be King (because 'cocks are important')... so he is going to say as such. But the fact is that Aerys made Viserys the heir after Rhaegar's death bypassing Rhaegar's kids. So the line of succession is not clear cut. That's why Dany said Jon is the last male heir not.. that he is the heir. 

My impression he is that he was as bad if not worse than Joffrey. He told her he would be happy to let all the Dothraki and horses rape her if he had too. He also definitely used to abuse her. And then like you said she was married off to a Dothraki warlord against her will and raped. She had it far worse than Sansa. Sansa had a great childhood.. she only suffered after she went to KL. But even in KL she was relatively safe due to her status as a political prisoner. Tyrion never raped her. Then she was once again protected in the Vale. Now Ramsey was awful for sure. But given the timespan Dany has had to deal with people attempting to murder her since she was a baby. I don't think you can discount Dany's suffering. Out of all of them she is the one that had it the worst as she had never even known safety and peace. Whereas all the Stark kids had solid childhoods up to the point where the story picks them up.

 

Given that Jon could barely convince the North to help them reclaim Winterfell.. and that the North and the Vale had suffered serious losses in the Long Night.. I don't buy that it would be easy for Jon to capture KL. Stannis with his army at full force wasn't able to. Plus who would believe that a bastard of Ned Starks is suddenly the last Targ. Not to mention that many would see him as a breaker of his oath to the Night's watch.

I am going to be honest with you .. the problem I have is that the story in this last season is not coherently written. The sequence of events they wrote for Dany before all this would not make it likely that Jon would be able to conquer KL on his own. 

Cersei was acting like an idiot, even Jaime understood the situation and went to North. Plus, Cersei was at a disadavantage and she knew the North would never accept her rule, so she understands that it won't make a difference for her, either Night King or Targaryens/Starks will kill her anyway. Daenerys on the otherhand could win the North unlike Cersei could. So different situations.

Sansa could take the power anytime in the season 7, it looks like you missed those episodes where Glover and Royce said they should choose Sansa as Queen but she declined their offer. If she had any intention to steal Jon's crown, she would. So Sansa proved herself that Jon can trust her. 

Jon is nothing to Varys. Varys knows Daenerys better, and yet if he still chooses Jon over Daenerys, then that's Daenerys's problem not Jon's. And he is right that being a male is more important for the lords of westeros, that's the fact. Viserys doesn't have any children and Jon is the last male heir, so he has the right of course, yet Daenerys didn't care any of that and start to cry and forced Jon to be silent about it, she is trully a usurper, even Sansa wouldn't do that.

Again with this Dotraki horde over Daenerys thing? Viserys said that after she said she doesn't want to marry with Drogo. Viserys wasn't abusing her no reason, because she didn't want to follow Visery's command and made him angry. Not even mention other instances where Daenerys tries to manipulate Viserys by using others only then Viserys gets angry. Joffrey on the other hand, punishes Sansa for Robb's actions, totally irrelevant. Ramsay is the real deal, no comparison here. If Daenerys experienced Ramsay she would probably lose her mind or she would kill herself.

Jon failed convince the Northern lords because they were disadvantage against the Boltons, no one wants to fight at the losing side, and some of them didn't want to fight alongside with the wildling army which Jon brought up. After defeating the Boltons every Northern house choose Jon as their leader, there was no doubt on the North side, as well as the Vale. Stannis lost because Tyrells joined forces with the Lannisters, Cersei doesn't have the Reach, and the reason why Randyll Tarly joined her because Daenerys raised in Essos and she had no ties with Westeros so Randyll chooses Cersei because of that. If they knew Jon is a true heir, they would choose Jon without a second doubt, Jon is raised in Westeros unlike Daenerys, he is a war hero and the North and the Vale are behind him. Daenerys's own advisors (Tyrion and Varys) knew that Jon is a better option for the kingdom which is why they betrayed her one by one for Jon. Even Daenerys herself knew this truth as they love Jon more than they would ever love Daenerys in Westeros, yet she didn't care and she has become another Tyrant and a mad queen.

22 minutes ago, Alex200 said:

The inheritance also depends on what the lord decides - like how Tywin refused to acknowledge Tyrion's claim to the Rock.

Also the Targ succession laws are not so clear cut and they aren't always followed. I mean technically Viserys should have been made king after Robert's rebellion. Its basically who has the power to force their claim. In dance of the dragons, Rhaenyra was made the heir over her brother by her father. Yet Aegon II fought against it. 

Yes that's the difference. No one made Daenerys a heir. You're talking about Viserys, Daenerys isn't Viserys's daughter. If Daenerys's own advisors tells that Jon's claim > Daenerys's claim then there is no discussion here.

Edited by RYShh

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Cersei was acting like an idiot, even Jaime understood the situation and went to North. Plus, Cersei was at a disadavantage and she knew the North would never accept her rule, so she understands that it won't make a difference for her, either Night King or Targaryens/Starks will kill her anyway. Daenerys on the otherhand could win the North unlike Cersei could. So different situations.

I don't agree with that. The Lannisters won against the Starks before and the rest of the North did submit to the KL rule under the Boltons. So much that the majority of the North, tired of defeat and war, did not side with Jon/Sansa for the battle of the Bastards. Without Dany in the picture, a weakened North after the battle with the dead would not be tough to conquer. Secondly, Dany pardoned the man that stabbed her father in the back, she offered for a truce to battle the dead, so it would be reasonable had Cersei agreed to surrender that she would have been allowed to live. 

I am not going argue whether Cersei was dumb or smart.... but the problem is the story itself validates Cersei's perspective as the most valid option for keeping power. Had she been able to kill Drogon as easily as she killed Rheagal then she most likely would have won. 

48 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Sansa could take the power anytime in the season 7, it looks like you missed those episodes where Glover and Royce said they should choose Sansa as Queen but she declined their offer. If she had any intention to steal Jon's crown, she would. So Sansa proved herself that Jon can trust her. 

I don't know if that would have been the practical moment for her though with the upcoming battle of the dead coming up. She needed Jon's military expertise for that. I like Sansa but I personally think she was working her way towards taking control of Winterfell in all but name. And name would probably have come. At the end of the story they didn't give us a good reason for why Jon wasn't chosen as King in the North after the unsullied evacuated the capital. As for the trust aspect.. she deliberately went against her promise to him. Also Dany, after knowing Jon had a claim could have allowed him to die in the battle instead of saving his life twice at personal risk to her. Also at the very end she did offer to rule with him together. 

 

48 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Jon is nothing to Varys. Varys knows Daenerys better, and yet if he still chooses Jon over Daenerys, then that's Daenerys's problem not Jon's. And he is right that being a male is more important for the lords of westeros, that's the fact. Viserys doesn't have any children and Jon is the last male heir, so he has the right of course, yet she didn't care and start to cry and forced Jon to be silent about it, she is trully a usurper, even Sansa wouldn't do that.

Jon is something to Varys because he is more easily controllable. The question is why should Dany accept that being male is more important? She has the power to assert her claim. Also Jon has previously swore an oath to serve her as Queen. So the usurper argument is outlandish. She told him to keep quiet because he didn't want it anyways and it would make a mess of things (did make a mess of things) to tell his family. Sansa betrayed Jon. So you say Sansa wouldn't usurp Jon's throne.. I don't buy it.. she usurped her own brother's kingdom. Bran as a true born Stark male is the rightful king of the North and yet she refused his regency because he was also ruling the other kingdoms. The way the story was written.. its far more likely that Sansa was working her way towards an independent North with herself as Queen. 

 

48 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Again with this Dotraki horde over Daenerys thing? Viserys said that after she said she doesn't want to marry with Drogo. Viserys wasn't abusing her no reason, because she didn't want to follow Visery's command and made him angry. Not even mention other instances where Daenerys tries to manipulate Viserys by using others only then Viserys gets made. Joffrey on the other hand, punishes Sansa for Robb's actions, totally irrelevant. Ramsay is the real deal, no comparison here. If Daenerys experienced Ramsay she would probably lose her mind or she would kill herself.

But that just shows you the type of relationship they had. He put a blade against his pregnant sister's belly. Out of curiosity, have you read the books? Because they make it quite clear that he is cruel and abusive towards her. Again its a time frame thing.. Sansa had to experience at best a few years of Joffrey and Ramsey. But Dany had been going through crap since she was born. 

 

48 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Jon failed convince the Northern lords because they were disadvantage against the Boltons, no one wants to fight at the losing side, and some of them didn't want to fight alongside with the wildling army which Jon brought up. After defeating the Boltons every Northern house choose Jon as their leader, there was no doubt on the North side, as well as the Vale. Stannis lost because Tyrells joined forces with the Lannisters, Cersei doesn't have the Reach, and the reason why Randyll Tarly joined her because Daenerys raised in Essos and she had no ties with Westeros so Randyll chooses Cersei because of that. If they knew Jon is a true heir, they would choose Jon without a second doubt, Jon is raised in Westeros unlike Daenerys, he is a war hero and the North and the Vale are behind him. Daenerys's own advisors (Tyrion and Varys) knew that Jon is a better option for the kingdom which is why they betrayed her one by one for Jon. Even Daenerys herself knew this truth as they love Jon more than they would ever love Daenerys in Westeros, yet she didn't care and she has become another Tyrant and a mad queen.

But after the Northern forces and the vale were decimated what kind of army would Jon be left with? Who else would join them. A war hero for one side is the villain of the other. And really what kind of war hero was he? He lost the battle of the bastards due his poor emotional decision at the beginning. He hadn't contributed to the Long Night meaningfully. If the Tyrells didn't want Dany, why would they want a different Targ? He may be raised in Westeros.. but he was a northerner which they make clear is very different from the rest of the regions (like Scotland vs England). He is also an oath breaker for the rest of the country as he swore himself to the Nightswatch. Who would believe he died and came back to life? Also he hasn't technically taken his last breath.  

Look they wrote what they did.... my honest answer is that I just don't buy how they wrote this season. Tormund slapping Jon on the back for riding a dragon? Tormund was saved by Dany last season and rode a dragon before Jon. Jon himself contributed very little to the long night. If Dany was so unpopular people would be turning against Jon for bending the knee to her to begin with. Jon would have very little support in the North or the rest of the country. Even at the end the iron islands, Dorne and the Reach would support Dany hence why Jon needed to be punished. Btw Tyrion didn't turn away from Dany like Varys did initially.. he actually ratted out Varys.  Like Tyrion said.. half would hate Tyrion because he supported Dany and the other half because he betrayed her. The same would have held true for Jon. 

Edited by Alex200

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Alex200 said:

I don't agree with that. The Lannisters won against the Starks before and the rest of the North did submit to the KL rule under the Boltons. So much that the majority of the North, tired of defeat and war, did not side with Jon/Sansa for the battle of the Bastards. Without Dany in the picture, a weakened North after the battle with the dead would not be tough to conquer. Secondly, Dany pardoned the man that stabbed her father in the back, she offered for a truce to battle the dead, so it would be reasonable had Cersei agreed to surrender that she would have been allowed to live. 

I am not going argue whether Cersei was dumb or smart.... but the problem is the story itself validates Cersei's perspective as the most valid option for keeping power. Had she been able to kill Drogon as easily as she killed Rheagal then she most likely would have won. 

I don't know if that would have been the practical moment for her though with the upcoming battle of the dead coming up. She needed Jon's military expertise for that. I like Sansa but I personally think she was working her way towards taking control of Winterfell in all but name. And name would probably have come. At the end of the story they didn't give us a good reason for why Jon wasn't chosen as King in the North after the unsullied evacuated the capital. As for the trust aspect.. she deliberately went against her promise to him. Also Dany, after knowing Jon had a claim could have allowed him to die in the battle instead of saving his life twice at personal risk to her. Also at the very end she did offer to rule with him together. 

 

Jon is something to Varys because he is more easily controllable. The question is why should Dany accept that being male is more important? She has the power to assert her claim. Also Jon has previously swore an oath to serve her as Queen. So the usurper argument is outlandish. She told him to keep quiet because he didn't want it anyways and it would make a mess of things (did make a mess of things) to tell his family. Sansa betrayed Jon. So you say Sansa wouldn't usurp Jon's throne.. I don't buy it.. she usurped her own brother's kingdom. Bran as a true born Stark male is the rightful king of the North and yet she refused his regency because he was also ruling the other kingdoms. The way the story was written.. its far more likely that Sansa was working her way towards an independent North with herself as Queen. 

 

But that just shows you the type of relationship they had. He put a blade against his pregnant sister's belly. Out of curiosity, have you read the books? Because they make it quite clear that he is cruel and abusive towards her. Again its a time frame thing.. Sansa had to experience at best a few years of Joffrey and Ramsey. But Dany had been going through crap since she was born. 

 

But after the Northern forces and the vale were decimated what kind of army would Jon be left with? Who else would join them. A war hero for one side is the villain of the other. If the Tyrells didn't want Dany, why would they want a different Targ. He may be raised in Westeros.. but he was a northerner which they make clear is different from the rest of the bunch. He is also an oath breaker. 

Look they wrote what they did.... my honest answer is that I just don't buy how they wrote this season. Tormund slapping Jon on the back for riding a dragon? Tormund was saved by Dany last season and rode a dragon before Jon. Jon himself contributed very little to the long night. If Dany was so unpopular people would be turning against Jon for bending the knee to her to begin with. Jon would have very little support in the North or the rest of the country. Even at the end the iron islands, Dorne and the Reach would support Dany hence why Jon needed to be punished. 

Lannisters defeated Starks in a Wedding and that's because Tywin Lannister. They won't fall for the same trick twice and Tywin was dead. The North would obviously prefer Jon over Cersei, there is no doubt about that. 

Cersei couldn't win no matter what, she was doomed from the beginning when they lost the Tyrells, even Euron would backstab her at some point, as Varys says Lords of Westeros despise Cersei. The Dorne hates them, the Riverlands hates them after the death of Freys, and the North and the Vale already joined forces against them.

Your opinion doesn't matter when the facts are there. Sansa declined the offer to take the power in the North. That's what we know. Even when LF tried to manipulate her, she didn't fall for his trick. Daenerys is a power hungry, greedy person, she would do that without hesitation especially if someone like LF motivates her to do that, she is a usurper, she didn't even blink when they killed Viserys by burning his head.

Controllable? You know who wasn't controllable? The mad king. Wise kings/queens listens their advisors. Jon too listens his advisors. She told Jon to be quiet because she knew everyone would choose Jon over her in Westeros, she knew this fact and she still tried to usurp Jon's claim. Sansa usurped no one, she even wanted to free Jon, and if they did Jon was their king. So what should she do? Not accepting being the queen because they sent Jon to NW? Not sure how can I ever understand your logic.

Viserys did that when he was drunk, it's not something he does that everyday. Joffrey maybe, but Ramsay is a completely different thing, no one can compare Viserys to Ramsay. You literally said Daenerys experienced worse, because Viserys? Just stop. No one compares to Ramsay. If it was only Joffrey, I could compare that, but Ramsay? No. Also Viserys didn't always abuse Daenerys, he taught Daenerys everything he know about Westeros, and she would be long dead if not for Viserys, you're exaggerating Viserys. 

Jon > Cersei. There is no doubt about it, I hope you're not going to debate this. Some of them may choose Cersei over Daenerys because Daenerys raised in Essos and she brought Unsullied and Dothraki to Westeros, but no one could argue Jon over Cersei.

Edited by RYShh

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17 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Daenerys is a power hungry, greedy person, she would do that without hesitation especially if someone like LF motivates her to do that, she is a usurper, she didn't even blink when they killed Viserys by burning his head.

That is blatantly untrue. Your dislike of Dany makes you not able to see things objectively. So there is no point to furthering this conversation.

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