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What was the purpose of Jon Snow?

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Just now, Alex200 said:

That is blatantly untrue. Your dislike of Dany makes you not able to see things objectively. So there is no point to furthering this conversation.

If it was up to debate, I would leave it here, but even Daenerys's own advisors agreed on this;

''Tyrion: If we marry them, they could rule together.

Varys: She's his aunt.

Tyrion: That never stopped a Targaryen before.

Varys: No, but Jon grew up in Winterfell. Is marrying your aunt common in the North? You know our queen better than I do. Do you think she wants to share the throne? She does not like to have her authority questioned.

Tyrion: Something she has in common with every monarch who ever lived.'' (S08E04)

If saying power hungry and greedy person is hating Daenerys, then Tyrion and Varys hates Daenerys too. Varys says she wouldn't share the throne with Jon and Tyrion agreed.

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His purpose is to be the ultimate man by murdering the woman he loves. Because kids that’s the answer to all your relationship problems. Just go for a quick stab and it’ll all work out for you in the end. I mean it takes courage and heroism to stab somebody like that. Who needs to talk things through and compromise when you can just get a new girl? 

Honestly I always hated Mr “You Should Like Me”, but to see him elevated into a martyr by the show runners is sickening. Him and his rat faced family of schemers.

The show runners assumed that I loved the Starks so much that I would approve of them plotting a coup since season 7 against Daenerys and using her to save all their worthless lives. I did not and the last season strangled any lingering empathy for them as characters.

I really don’t think I can read future books or even reread the older ones. I actively want the Starks to fail and for the North to be destroyed at this point. I have no desire to read Stark fan service.

 

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12 hours ago, RYShh said:

If it was up to debate, I would leave it here, but even Daenerys's own advisors agreed on this;

Yep, the powers that be are blatantly saying Daenerys is unfit to rule. 

I knew GRRM was not going to side with House Targaryen but I was surprised that Jon got his dick metaphorically chopped off so he could end the line for good. That seems extra harsh since Jon had no idea he was a Targaryen and he was only a "half" anyway. 

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15 hours ago, Alex200 said:

Dany has experienced far worse. Dany grew up on the run never knowing parents with an abusive brother. While Sansa had an amazing childhood up till she was 13 with two loving parents and growing up as a Lady. 

I would argue that makes it far worse. Sansa had all the love in the world and was entitled and it was all taken away right in front of her in a brutal manner in public shaming and she was forced to belittle herself and her family and endure all the taunts in KL. She lost all her family members one after the other and worse she was forced to be in a relationship with those who murdered her family.

Dany never knew her parents,yes but that means she wont value what she never had in the first place. 

Dany fell in love with her rapist and that’s how she managed things. Sansa was in relationship with a guy who was a sadist and wanted to do gruesome things to women. 

Not to mention, the moment she got her dragons, Dany just recieved a get out of jail free card. She used those dragons like a gun to the head against her opponents and it was a smooth sailing from there on in. She had a guardian angel Jorah at her side. Sansa had no one. 

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Well technically Sansa is usurping Jon's right by being Queen of the North as the entire realm supposedly belonged to Jon. At least Dany had an equal claim given that Aerys had already surpassed Rhaegar's kids to make Viserys heir. Plus she had the army to conquer KL that neither Jon nor Sansa ever had. 

Neither Sansa nor Jon had any issue with either of them becoming the leader of the North. The last scene proves that Sansa asks him to forgive her for not being able to make him King again. Likewise, Jon comforts her that she would be a great queen. When Jon was an absentee king for a long time in Drsgonstone, she refused the Northern Lords suggestion to make herself a queen  

He had no idea Jon existed or was alive so that doesn’t count.

Using the armies makes her a conqueror, not a legal ruler. She gave up on that facade the moment she used her dragons. Firstly she was going on and on about birthright. Then she found out who he was and was forcing Jon to live a lie for her sake. That’s when she gave up the birthright facade because using her previous logic against her meant that Jon had the better claim to the throne then her. Then she started going on and on about destiny and at the end, she threw all the legality of it out of the window and conquered the throne by force. Then she tells Jon that she doesn’t mind him living as Aegon Targaryen because he was no threat to her then. 

Also Jon and Cersei would eventually have fought even without Dany as there was no way Cersei would remain quiet over Jon being KitN so he could have become king with his own army as well. 

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I liked Sansa last season but this season I ended up disliking her behaviour towards Dany. Dany was asked by Jon to come North and help protect them. The fact that Sansa was showing her attitude was wrong. 

Sansa saw her power hungry nature right before anyone else did as she has lived with Baelish and Cersei for a decade. She knew she burnt the Tarly’s alive. She also destroyed all the food in the reach not caring about how she was going to feed her own army when she plonked herself down in Winterfell. She gave a passive aggressive answer on when she asked what food to give the dragons. She refused to broach the subject of Northern Independance when Sansa knew they had gone through hell to bring it back. On top of that, Jon told Sansa he bent his knee to Dany partly because he loved her. Sansa knows Cersei’s teachings on how women can use their female attributes to trap men. Sansa has seen the fake courtesies with the snakes in the south and Dany wasn’t fooling anyone. She had every reason to be suspicious of a foreign invader with nukes who knew nothing about how the land worked came in. 

Dany wasn’t doing Jon any favours by coming to help him. If she hadn’t come, there would have been a shit ton of corpses for her to fight on her own. Also what does she call herself "The rightful queen of the 7 kingdoms and Protector of the Realm" . What she was doing is literally in her job description. The North didn’t owe her anything when she came to help.

A part of the reason Dany failed to inspire any loyalty in Westeros was mainly because her anti slavery crusade back in Meereen wasn’t going to work here. Sansa wasn’t crucifying anyone, nor was Cersei and everyone would have been happy with the way things were and this resulted in Dnay not having a leg to stand on. 

If you want to understand the response Dany was expecting in Westeros, look at the disgusting crowd surfing scene in Meereen. That’s the sort of welcome Dany was expecting from Winterfell and she became angry when didn’t get it. She became angry when Sansa embraced Theon and he showed loyalty to Sansa instead of her. She expected Sansa to throw herself at her feet and that didn’t happen. Mainly because the common folk were happy. No one wanted to overthrow Sansa. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yep, the powers that be are blatantly saying Daenerys is unfit to rule. 

I knew GRRM was not going to side with House Targaryen but I was surprised that Jon got his dick metaphorically chopped off so he could end the line for good. That seems extra harsh since Jon had no idea he was a Targaryen and he was only a "half" anyway. 

He is going with the wildlings as is said by Ramin Djawadi in his recent interview  then he can still have a kid and name him Stark. In the interview he said there are various possibilities now for Jon. Sansa wouldn’t mind honestly. He is half Stark anyway. I really don’t expect Sansa would marry anyone based on their parallel to Elizabeth I which makes it possible she names Jon’s son the heir. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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16 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

He is going with the wildlings as is said by Ramin Djawadi in his recent interview  then he can still have a kid and name him Stark. In the interview he said there are various possibilities now for Jon. Sansa wouldn’t mind honestly. He is half Stark anyway. I really don’t expect Sansa would marry anyone based on their parallel to Elizabeth I which makes it possible she names Jon’s son the heir. 

I wish this was show canon though. Its still vague and I've seen conflicting takes from the cast and writers. Maybe GRRM will do something like that and be explicit about it because the Bael story would have more payoff this way.

"The Last of the Starks" was a terrible episode title!

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wish this was show canon though. Its still vague and I've seen conflicting takes from the cast and writers. Maybe GRRM will do something like that and be explicit about it because the Bael story would have more payoff this way.

"The Last of the Starks" was a terrible episode title!

Just curious, what is the Bael story and how does it relate to Jon?

More than likely we will know the writer’s intentions by September. HBO nominated Episode 6 to the Emmy for the Best Writing award and if they win, the entire script of Episode 6 will be posted on the Emmy website. Whatever is written in that is final. Chances of winning are high as last time Season 7 won against tougher competition. 

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2 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Just curious, what is the Bael story and how does it relate to Jon?

More than likely we will know the writer’s intentions by September. HBO nominated Episode 6 to the Emmy for the Best Writing award and if they win, the entire script of Episode 6 will be posted on the Emmy website. Whatever is written in that is final. Chances of winning are high as last time Season 7 won against tougher competition. 

it will create uproar if they win that best writing award for sure....a massive sign to the criticisms of the finale

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48 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

it will create uproar if they win that best writing award for sure....a massive sign to the criticisms of the finale

I just want them to win simply so that I can get my hands on that script and make sense of that ambiguous ending lol. If they don’t win, we’ll be debating for eternity on whether Jon Snow went with the wildlings or still in the NW. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

I just want them to win simply so that I can get my hands on that script and make sense of that ambiguous ending lol. If they don’t win, we’ll be debating for eternity on whether Jon Snow went with the wildlings or still in the NW. 

Someone could just go down to the Writers Guild library and look up all the scripts once they are there. Joanna Robinson did that for Vanity Fair before s8 aired.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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For me its the whole Targaryen thing that confuses me. Jon Snow being a Targaryen served literally no purpose other then turning Daenerys mad overnight. 

According to D&D, it was them correctly guessing Jon Snow's mother that convinced GRRM to let them make the show in the first place. With that being the case you would think they would've come up with a good story involving R+L=J, instead of it appearing to have zero relevance to the story. Jon's mother might as well have been Wylla in the show. 

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11 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

For me its the whole Targaryen thing that confuses me. Jon Snow being a Targaryen served literally no purpose other then turning Daenerys mad overnight. 

According to D&D, it was them correctly guessing Jon Snow's mother that convinced GRRM to let them make the show in the first place. With that being the case you would think they would've come up with a good story involving R+L=J, instead of it appearing to have zero relevance to the story. Jon's mother might as well have been Wylla in the show. 

I will never, ever understand why people keep claiming that Jon being the rightful heir "served no purpose". Never.

Ned wouldn't have married Cat; Branden would have. There would have been no Robert's Rebellion. The Targaryens would still be in power.  Ned wouldn't have had to fight Ser Arthur Dayne and the others at the Tower of Joy, or learned the lesson he learned that day from Howland Reed. He wouldn't have had to hide Jon from Robert at all. Lyanna would be alive, and Robert wouldn't be king. Jon wouldn't have had to be raised in secret. Bran wouldn't have been thrown out a window by the queen's adulterous brother and become the last greenseer. Jon wouldn't have had to go to the Wall. And most importantly, Jon wouldn't have been able to show that he learned that his honorable duty to his the underlying spirit of his oath to guard the realms of men was infinitely more important than merely being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, just like Maester Aemon who at one time was also the rightful heir.

Everything revolves upon Jon being the rightful heir. There'd have been no story otherwise.

I will never, ever understand why people keep claiming that Jon being the rightful heir "served no purpose".

Never.

It's the architectural keystone that supports the gigantically epic-sized arch from the story's beginning to its end. Without Jon being who he was, the entire story crumbles into dust that never was.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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17 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Just curious, what is the Bael story and how does it relate to Jon?

More than likely we will know the writer’s intentions by September. HBO nominated Episode 6 to the Emmy for the Best Writing award and if they win, the entire script of Episode 6 will be posted on the Emmy website. Whatever is written in that is final. Chances of winning are high as last time Season 7 won against tougher competition. 

..............According to free folk legend, Lord Brandon Stark, the liege of the north, once called Bael (The King beyond the Wall) a coward. To take revenge for this affront and prove his courage, Bael climbed the Wall, took the kingsroad, and entered Winterfell under the guise of a singer named Sygerrik of Skagos. Impressed by his skills as a singer, Lord Stark asked Bael what he wanted as a reward, but he requested only the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell's gardens. As the blue winter roses were just blooming, Brandon Stark presented him with one. The following morning, the maiden daughter of Lord Stark had disappeared, his only child, and in her bed was the blue winter rose. Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night's Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found Bael or the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her arms an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell, staying hidden in the crypts. Bael's bastard with Brandon's daughter became the new Lord Stark.

 

Thats how the Stark line continued, by a bastard child from the King Beyond the Wall, says the legend....

The first time Jon Snow meets Ygritte in  A Clash of Kings, chapter 51,  she tells him the story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose:

“North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.

 

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished … and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.”

(Jon VI -  A Clash of Kings)

 

Right next, in the following chapter 52, Sansa has her first flowering. Thats the chapter where Sansa gets her first period and is finally fit to bear children to the king.

 

“The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.” Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me, but I… I thought it would be different.”“Different how?”“I don’t know. Less… less messy, and more magical.” Queen Cersei laughed. "Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman’s life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you’ll learn that soon enough… and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all.” She took a sip of milk. “So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?” “It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded,” said Sansa, “and to bear children for the king.” …….

Do you want to be loved, Sansa?“ "Everyone wants to be loved.” “I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

(Sansa IV - A Clash of Kings)

In the end of chapter Cersei warns Sansa about love and how dangerous it can be. The following chapter of the book is also JON VII. George really wanted us to picture Jon, Sansa and the Blue Winter Rose tale all together. 

Now, by the end of season 8, we have Jon Snow, marching North to stay with the Wildlings and be the King Beyond the Wall and we also have Sansa, the only Stark daughter left in Winterfell. Her only brother left cant father children,  This is pretty much a repeat of the events that were told in the Song Bael and the Bard. So I would not be surprised if Jon and Sansa do have an an afair and she gives birth to a bastard child.

This theory of Jon and Sansa upset a lot of people in the fandom, but I dont think all this foreshadow is just coincidence. 

 

Edited by Juligen

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On 6/4/2019 at 10:29 PM, Areisius said:

That still doesn't give reason for his brush to the side ending. 

Actually other than stabbing Dany he was brushed to the side more or less since the end of Season 6. Nothing about his character arc ever paid off.

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On 6/5/2019 at 5:01 PM, kjl473 said:

I agree.  I felt that the was essentially a tragedy.  Pretty much all the principle characters lost in the end, even the ones who "won".  Bran became king but lost his humanity.  Tyrion was "sentenced" to be hand of the king but he is going to be tormented because what happened the last time he was.  Sansa becomes queen but she looses Jon forever because of it.  I suspect that was the very last thing she wanted.  My first impression of Arya wanting to go into the west was was afraid to be around people yet because of the person she had turned herself into.  

I don't think Sansa is too broken up over Jon being gone. She seemed quite disappointed that he survived the Battle of the Bastards and had no problem starting the cycle of events that very likely could have ended in him being burned to death by telling Tyrion about Jon's parentage.

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15 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I will never, ever understand why people keep claiming that Jon being the rightful heir "served no purpose". Never.

Ned wouldn't have married Cat; Branden would have. There would have been no Robert's Rebellion. The Targaryens would still be in power.  Ned wouldn't have had to fight Ser Arthur Dayne and the others at the Tower of Joy, or learned the lesson he learned that day from Howland Reed. He wouldn't have had to hide Jon from Robert at all. Lyanna would be alive, and Robert wouldn't be king. Jon wouldn't have had to be raised in secret. Bran wouldn't have been thrown out a window by the queen's adulterous brother and become the last greenseer. Jon wouldn't have had to go to the Wall. And most importantly, Jon wouldn't have been able to show that he learned that his honorable duty to his the underlying spirit of his oath to guard the realms of men was infinitely more important than merely being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, just like Maester Aemon who at one time was also the rightful heir.

Everything revolves upon Jon being the rightful heir. There'd have been no story otherwise.

I will never, ever understand why people keep claiming that Jon being the rightful heir "served no purpose".

Never.

It's the architectural keystone that supports the gigantically epic-sized arch from the story's beginning to its end. Without Jon being who he was, the entire story crumbles into dust that never was.

Sure, you're right. Jon being a Targaryen set up the events of the story. I guess I was just hoping it would've meant something more in the present. I'm sure it will be more developed in the books. 

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14 hours ago, wvchemteach said:

I don't think Sansa is too broken up over Jon being gone. She seemed quite disappointed that he survived the Battle of the Bastards and had no problem starting the cycle of events that very likely could have ended in him being burned to death by telling Tyrion about Jon's parentage.

Sansa never wanted Jon dead. What are you talking about? That grim look sideways is at Ramsay. The moment she saw Jon heading towards Winterfell after Ramsay’s she immediately followed to help him. Sansa was the rightful heir to Winterfell but she allowed the others to name Jon as KiTN. When Jon was away on Dragonstone for weeks and weeks and the nobles got frustrated, she refused to take the position of QiTN until Jon returned. She was almost on the verge of tears when Jon was going to KL out of worry for his life when she was talking to Tyrion. I do believe Sansa will occasionally visit Jon at the Wall. 

Theirs is one of the best relationships in the show. They came from not speaking to one another to helping each other in times of need.

Edited by Kaapstad

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On 6/12/2019 at 5:20 AM, Kaapstad said:

Apart from uniting the wildlings and the North, he was irrelevant to the story. He didn’t fight a single white walker.His real identity meant nothing. You can cut out the entire Aegon plot and nothing changes. Dany would still go mad. 

He did fight a White Walker - two, in fact. 

If you cut out the entire Aegon plot:

1. Dany's claim to the throne is true. Her identity and destiny is founded on a truth.

2. Jon willingly returns Dany's affection.

3. Jon isn't able to pass Drogon to get to Dany leading to:

4. Jon can't kill Dany. Dany survives, the Iron Throne remains.

5. Ned doesn't have to sacrifice his honor to protect Jon.

6. Jon is killed by the Night's Watch and isn't brought back to life by the Lord of Light.

7. Varys doesn't betray Dany.

8. Sansa has no direct role in the Stark outcome.

These are several direct consequences of multiple. Other indirect consequences may be things such as: Dany doesn't destroy King's Landing since the complete absence of love for her is what culminated it the decision to wake the dragon "Then it's fear."

When you say "nothing changes" you clearly have either put no thought whatsoever into your words, lack the ability to understand the relationship of the information to the function of the narrative, or don't know the meaning of the word "nothing".

Also, Jon wouldn't be a "Song of Ice and Fire" and wouldn't symbolize the conflict between duty and love. 

Edited by John Meta

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33 minutes ago, John Meta said:

He did fight a White Walker - two, in fact. 

If you cut out the entire Aegon plot:

1. Dany's claim to the throne is true. Her identity and destiny is founded on a truth.

2. Jon willingly returns Dany's affection.

3. Jon isn't able to pass Drogon to get to Dany leading to:

4. Jon can't kill Dany. Dany survives, the Iron Throne remains.

5. Ned doesn't have to sacrifice his honor to protect Jon.

6. Jon is killed by the Night's Watch and isn't brought back to life by the Lord of Light.

7. Varys doesn't betray Dany.

8. Sansa has no direct role in the Stark outcome.

These are several direct consequences of multiple. Other indirect consequences may be things such as: Dany doesn't destroy King's Landing since the complete absence of love for her is what culminated it the decision to wake the dragon "Then it's fear."

When you say "nothing changes" you clearly have either put no thought whatsoever into your words, lack the ability to understand the relationship of the information to the function of the narrative, or don't know the meaning of the word "nothing".

Also, Jon wouldn't be a "Song of Ice and Fire" and wouldn't symbolize the conflict between duty and love. 

All that and much more.

No Robert's Rebellion.  No battle at the Tower of Joy between Ned seeking his sister and the Kingsguard guarding their king. No Battle of the Trident at Ruby Ford. No Tywin sacking King's Landing. No King Robert. No cuckolding kingslayer pushing Bran from the tower and creating the last greenseer. No Jon raised in secret. No Jon at the Wall learning the lesson of duty vs. love from the whilom "rightful heir", Aemon Targaryen -- and why that title didn't matter. 

No story at all, really. Without Jon being who he was, we would have had no story. That was Jon's purpose.

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On 6/11/2019 at 4:42 AM, RYShh said:

Do you even know what Ramsay did to Sansa? I highly doubt you do. Joffrey consistently beat Sansa by using Meryn Trant, even on the throne room. Even Viserys isn't comparable to that, or Drogo (then somehow she fall in love with Drogo later).

In the books he did nothing to her because it wasn't her story and in the show not anything close to the multiple rapes and beatings Dany took from Drogo and Viserys when she was just a child. Get the fuck out of here with how Sansa had it so hard bullshit!

 

Remember times when the Hound to saved Sansa from being raped and tired to save her from what was going to happened to her by Joffrey and Ramsey but she refused him because she was set on becoming a queen and sealed her own fate. Sansa had somebody to protect her and even had a way out. Dany had neither.   

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