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Areisius

What was the purpose of Jon Snow?

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After watching this last season I'm baffled by what his purpose was? He serves the Night's watch, gets murdered by them, gets revived, retakes Winterfell, meets Dany and convinces her to help him defend the north from the White Walkers, finds out he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark, defends Winterfell from the White Walkers, fights at Kings Landing, Kills Dany, and gets banished back to the Night's watch. He does all these things to end up back at square one. I have never witnessed a main character have such an anticlimactic ending. WTF?

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He rallied the north and Dany to fight the WW. Which is fine, I guess, he was true to the vows he made when he joined the Night's Watch.

I guess the north needed someone with certain degree of authority to guide them into the fight.

In a world like the one in the books, that resembles real life itself (the human aspect) where most of the character are grey and everything feels real. One must remember that perhaps like in real life, there is not a bigger meaning. 

Jon wanted to join the Night's Watch. It wasn't something that was chosen for him by a higher power or otherwise. Just like he refused the Throne. He wasn't destined to anything. It was choices he made and the circumstances those choices created.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, random girl from westeros said:

In a world like the one in the books, that resembles real life itself (the human aspect) where most of the character are grey and everything feels real. One must remember that perhaps like in real life, there is not a bigger meaning. 

In many ways, meaning-making is at the heart of what it means to be human. And subsequently at the heart of story-telling (vs. relating facts). When people press too hard on the idea that ASoIaF is sooo true to real life as a defense of the soap-operaish series-of-events that the show became, they are just discrediting GRRM as a storyteller.

And in fact, that's not really true either. A lot of ASoIaF is centered on meaningful themes.

When people walk out of a story asking, "What was the point of...". Then it was a bad story. And the answer "It's like real life!" is not a satisfactory one. Nonfiction stories shouldn't feel pointless either.

Most "stories" told are nonfiction anyway. Like "how was your day?" And we've all had someone answer that question with a long, meandering, pointless anecdote. And guess what? They SUCK. Nobody says, "WOW! That was really long, convoluted, random and pointless. It was so real! Great story!". Nope. We say, "GET TO THE POINT!" People who tell pointless real life stories are called bad storytellers.

 We've also heard real life stories told to entertaining satisfaction. The art there is taking the sequence of events and finding a meaningful throughline and cutting the stuff that doesn't work toward it without confusing the narrative.

"Real-life" has nothing to do with whether a story feels meaningless or not, so it's a poor excuse. In fact, it should be easier with fiction because you get to make it all up. Modelling a fictional story on poor real life storytelling is not making it more like real life, it's just making it more like bad storytelling.

 

Edited by iprayiam

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, iprayiam said:

We've also heard real life stories told to entertaining satisfaction. The art there is taking the sequence of events and finding a meaningful throughline and cutting the stuff that doesn't work toward it without confusing the narrative.

"Real-life" has nothing to do with whether a story feels meaningless or not, so it's a poor excuse. In fact, it should be easier with fiction because you get to make it all up. Modelling a fictional story on poor real life storytelling is not making it more like real life, it's just making it more like bad storytelling.

 

What I mean by bigger meaning is that Jon wasn't The Chosen One. He was not Neo. It was the choices he made and the circumstances. It doesn't mean that Jon' story is meaningless, it just doesn't have a Higher Meaning. 

Like in real life (depending in your life philosophy) things, people and stories have meaning their just (again, life philosophy) don't have a higher meaning. 

Most of old and modern stories in the world were made to make meaning. For example, the kidnapping of Persephone explained the change of seasons to the greeks. Other stories are about the meaning of life and the human condition.

Macondo was a city that lasted one hundred years it was isolated from the rest of the world and finally it was destroyed by a tornado. Within the story it had not impact to the rest of world. But for the reader it was a story about the human condition, love and hate.

 

Edited by random girl from westeros

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I made a similar thread but I guess it wasn't moderated. The consensus opinion seems to be he ends up with the freefolk. Considering the fact that they rendered his parentage meaningless and assuming he went out with the free folk to the Far North of Hardhome or something similar, what would his purpose be? What’s he going to do? Considering the fact that the massive dead army made its way from the remote regions of the North it’s likely any possible living threats would have been eradicated for the purpose of filling their army. So what’s he going to do from hereon in? Sansa is Queen. Bran is King. Tyrion and Bronn and Brienne have all been assigned a purpose. Whats Jon's purpose? There were like only 200 free folk in that last scene so mostly there is nothing to be a king of. So he becomes a lumberjack?

Then in The Last Watch, the executive producer apparently says he will never meet his family or return to Westeros ever again. So whats he gonna do in the middle of nowhere?

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39 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

So whats he gonna do in the middle of nowhere?

Be happy?

It is my impression that he was always felt more at home with Thormund, Ygritte and the rest of the free folk than he did with most others, including his family. In the Watch, he connected with commoners and Sam, who is quite odd for a high ranking noble. In many ways, I think exile North of the Wall is his happy ending.

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Posted (edited)

When you think about it, most of real life people would be suicidal at this point. Especially if he is not permanently living with freefolk  but just escorting them as a Night's Watchman. I mean, who in their right mind would accept NW as a fair continuation of life after all he went through. NW is NOT the real north. Celibacy and exile again, thank you, but blissful nonexistence seems preferable to that. What a downright horrible, nihilistic show this turned out to be. They all had love and family, and they chose to abandon it. And the one who should have abandoned his evil sister  in  favor of pure honorable love, chose to die with his evil twin. I mean, even Jon chose death and destruction over happiness. Dany was a narcissistic megalomaniac at times, but she could have been subdued and guided properly if Jon was just willing to swallow his goddamn stark honor or whatever and truly be with her. And just thinking about all this seems so in vain and stupid because the writing was so stupid. Is pure unselfish romantic love so rare in the world? Both this one and Westeros. Why is that? I can't connect to this  vision of reality on a personal level because I have experienced love and I am living still, and hopefully for the rest my days, until death sets us apart, so the fates of the main characters seem even more tragic to me, not just Jon. Romantic love experienced the equivalent of the Red Wedding in the end, being brutally slain. Jaime and Brienne yanked apart, Gendry and Arya torn down, Jon and Dany, murder madness crap, even Sam and Gilly did't seem to make it if Sam is the Grandmeaster, Gilly was not even shown in the finale. Romantic love seems like an abstract concept that is destined to end in tragedy in both Asoiaf and GOT . I can't connect with that nor do I want to try.

Edited by Han Snow

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On 6/3/2019 at 6:25 PM, Areisius said:

After watching this last season I'm baffled by what his purpose was? He serves the Night's watch, gets murdered by them, gets revived, retakes Winterfell, meets Dany and convinces her to help him defend the north from the White Walkers, finds out he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark, defends Winterfell from the White Walkers, fights at Kings Landing, Kills Dany, and gets banished back to the Night's watch. He does all these things to end up back at square one. I have never witnessed a main character have such an anticlimactic ending. WTF?

In some cases the true purpose of a character turns out to be completely different then his/her preordained destiny appears to be.  In Jon's case it was probably to get people to unite who ordinarily never would have.

Take the case of Siegfried from Wagner's Ring Cycle.  He is son of a good man who was born for the sole purpose to destroy the ring of power.  Siegfried inherits his murdered father's broken sword and reforges it. He slays the dragon, gets the ring of power, and since he has no interest in power is the one person (we think) who is immune to it's curse ("the lord of the ring shall be the slave of the ring").  He passes through the magic fire to wake Brunhilde the Valkyrie who knows (we think) how to destroy the ring.  They fall in love and marry (despite her being his aunt).  At this point it seems obvious that Siegfried the hero will destroy the ring and become a king.  However when Siegfried reaches the capitol he turns out to be a complete idiot.  The villain runs circles around him and gets him to drink a potion which puts him under the villain's control.  All Siegfried manages to accomplish is that he beats up Brunhilde, marries her off to another man who rapes her, and gets everyone to think she is crazy when she says she was raped.  She is is so mad at him that the villain easily tricks her into telling him how to kill Siegfried and he dies after being ingloriously stabbed in the back.  So what was the point of Siegfried?   Brunhilde emerges from the suffering she has endured much wiser and she finally learns the actual way to destroy the ring herself (immolating herself in Siegfried's funeral pyre in the process).  In the end his purpose was to put her through her hero's journey.

Jon is a similar case.  At least he gets to ride off into the sunset.  

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7 hours ago, random girl from westeros said:

He rallied the north and Dany to fight the WW. Which is fine, I guess, he was true to the vows he made when he joined the Night's Watch.

I guess the north needed someone with certain degree of authority to guide them into the fight.

In a world like the one in the books, that resembles real life itself (the human aspect) where most of the character are grey and everything feels real. One must remember that perhaps like in real life, there is not a bigger meaning. 

Jon wanted to join the Night's Watch. It wasn't something that was chosen for him by a higher power or otherwise. Just like he refused the Throne. He wasn't destined to anything. It was choices he made and the circumstances those choices created.

That still doesn't give reason for his brush to the side ending. 

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27 minutes ago, kjl473 said:

In some cases the true purpose of a character turns out to be completely different then his/her preordained destiny appears to be.  In Jon's case it was probably to get people to unite who ordinarily never would have.

Take the case of Siegfried from Wagner's Ring Cycle.  He is son of a good man who was born for the sole purpose to destroy the ring of power.  Siegfried inherits his murdered father's broken sword and reforges it. He slays the dragon, gets the ring of power, and since he has no interest in power is the one person (we think) who is immune to it's curse ("the lord of the ring shall be the slave of the ring").  He passes through the magic fire to wake Brunhilde the Valkyrie who knows (we think) how to destroy the ring.  They fall in love and marry (despite her being his aunt).  At this point it seems obvious that Siegfried the hero will destroy the ring and become a king.  However when Siegfried reaches the capitol he turns out to be a complete idiot.  The villain runs circles around him and gets him to drink a potion which puts him under the villain's control.  All Siegfried manages to accomplish is that he beats up Brunhilde, marries her off to another man who rapes her, and gets everyone to think she is crazy when she says she was raped.  She is is so mad at him that the villain easily tricks her into telling him how to kill Siegfried and he dies after being ingloriously stabbed in the back.  So what was the point of Siegfried?   Brunhilde emerges from the suffering she has endured much wiser and she finally learns the actual way to destroy the ring herself (immolating herself in Siegfried's funeral pyre in the process).  In the end his purpose was to put her through her hero's journey.

Jon is a similar case.  At least he gets to ride off into the sunset.  

Jon is nothing like Siegfried. Jon had a purpose to unite different houses for one cause to defeat the Night King. He get's his story hijacked in the TV Show by Arya and does nothing heroic in this season like he has done in the past seasons. 

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35 minutes ago, Areisius said:

Jon is nothing like Siegfried. Jon had a purpose to unite different houses for one cause to defeat the Night King. He get's his story hijacked in the TV Show by Arya and does nothing heroic in this season like he has done in the past seasons. 

To the contrary, our hero not only brought a much larger force where winter fell than they would otherwise have been able to field, he at great personal cost saved Westeros from the final fiery foe! 

Pretty heroic if you ask me. 

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29 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

To the contrary, our hero not only brought a much larger force where winter fell than they would otherwise have been able to field, he at great personal cost saved Westeros from the final fiery foe! 

Pretty heroic if you ask me. 

Stabbing a girl who trusts you while you kiss her is antithetical to heroism no matter how you cut it. 

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Jon united the North to fight against the Night King and helped break the barriers that existed between the wildlings and the rest of Westeros.  He saved the North and the rest of the world  from destruction and death by killing Daenerys before she could go on her world wide conquest of fire and blood.  His sacrifice of choosing duty over love lead to Bran being the king of Westeros and an independent North and the restoration of the Starks with Sansa as Queen.  Plus he got to return to the true North where he had earned the respect and love of the people rather than seeking a crown elsewhere which he never wanted or felt he deserved.   Dany and Jon were presented with difficult situations and then we got to see them struggling with the choices they made in reaction to those situations.  I think it is a character study into how their basic personality traits and life experiences shaped them and led two people with claims to the throne view their lives and values differently.  

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8 hours ago, Zumbs said:

Be happy?

It is my impression that he was always felt more at home with Thormund, Ygritte and the rest of the free folk than he did with most others, including his family. In the Watch, he connected with commoners and Sam, who is quite odd for a high ranking noble. In many ways, I think exile North of the Wall is his happy ending.

I do not agree. I didn’t really find him all that happy among the free folk. He bailed out of there the moment he got the chance. He only liked his interactions with Ygritte and in the books he laid with her mainly to prove that he wasn’t a crow for the mission, not because he loved her. Though he does start liking her later. He always chose the NW over them. I found him happiest at the feast at Winterfell surrounded by his friends and Sansa and Arya. Looking at the way he looked at Sam sadly I think his ultimate wish was to start a family in Winterfell and live peacefully like Ned and Catelyn away from the politics. 

The reason he resented his family was because they used to treat him like a second class citizen especially Sansa and Arya with their half brother quips. Then later on they do mature and he starts to like them as in the end they take him as a normal member of their family. And the knowledge that this was only done to protect him so that it wouldn’t appear suspicious why a bastard was being treated relatively kindly would make him like them even more  

The reason he told Tormund he wished he was going with him up north was mainly because Daenerys was dragging him south into a fight he did not want for a throne he didn’t care about. But she wasn’t listening so he looks at the free folk and says this. Not because he likes  it but because he is sad at where he is being forced to go. 

The North of the Wall was never a hospitable place that’s why the free folk were trying to get out of there in the first place and looting and raiding the south of the wall for resources and just like the rest of the characters it seems to me they end up right back where they started. 

I don’t think Jon got a happy ending. If they had given him the throne, he gives it to Bran and then expresses a desire to go with the free folk I would buy it. But unlike the others it was foisted upon him so I don’t get the feeling he was enthusiastic about it. The fact that he is wearing the NW uniform makes me question if he is going to live with them or just ranging and return to Castle Black later. I mean if he really was going to live with them, why not make it unambiguous by having him go with Stark clothes or wildlings gear. Doesn’t make sense to me. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Han Snow said:

When you think about it, most of real life people would be suicidal at this point. Especially if he is not permanently living with freefolk  but just escorting them as a Night's Watchman. I mean, who in their right mind would accept NW as a fair continuation of life after all he went through. NW is NOT the real north. Celibacy and exile again, thank you, but blissful nonexistence seems preferable to that. What a downright horrible, nihilistic show this turned out to be. They all had love and family, and they chose to abandon it. And the one who should have abandoned his evil sister  in  favor of pure honorable love, chose to die with his evil twin. I mean, even Jon chose death and destruction over happiness. Dany was a narcissistic megalomaniac at times, but she could have been subdued and guided properly if Jon was just willing to swallow his goddamn stark honor or whatever and truly be with her. And just thinking about all this seems so in vain and stupid because the writing was so stupid. Is pure unselfish romantic love so rare in the world? Both this one and Westeros. Why is that? I can't connect to this  vision of reality on a personal level because I have experienced love and I am living still, and hopefully for the rest my days, until death sets us apart, so the fates of the main characters seem even more tragic to me, not just Jon. Romantic love experienced the equivalent of the Red Wedding in the end, being brutally slain. Jaime and Brienne yanked apart, Gendry and Arya torn down, Jon and Dany, murder madness crap, even Sam and Gilly did't seem to make it if Sam is the Grandmeaster, Gilly was not even shown in the finale. Romantic love seems like an abstract concept that is destined to end in tragedy in both Asoiaf and GOT . I can't connect with that nor do I want to try.

You say him ending up with the NW is isolating him but the fact is everyone of the characters is alone and must be feeling suicidal by that logic. Arya gives big talk about “the lone wolf dies but the pack survives” but gets out at the first opportune moment and is sailing the seas all alone and possibly to her death as no one who has gone in that direction ever returned.  

Sansa goes through rape and sexual and psychological torture and in the end there is not a single member of her family or even a friend like Brienne at her coronation. Even the Lannisters were better than this. Jamie attended Cersei’s coronation. What happened to all her talk about bringing her family together?

Bran has the personality of a rock and does nothing but warg around all day. Doesn’t rule or do anything but sit in his chair and look at the sky. 

Brienne ends up all alone after Jamie dumps her. She goes back to her stoic demeanour and likely won’t marry again as Jamie left her a snivelling wreck. 

Tyrion’s family is dead. He has to keep company of a mute and after what Dany did and him being her hand that will leave him scarred for the rest of his life. He also caused Jamie’s death. 

You would think the Starks would live together at least for some time after years and years of separation and mental fatigue but they just fuck off the moment they meet. I find the Lannisters to be a much better family then these new Starks. They stuck together and lived together (Jamie actually doesn’t leave the kings guard because he wants to stay with Cersei) and Jamie goes back to die together. Tyrion refuses to leave KL back in Season 3 as his family was at KL. Cersei outright refuses to go to Highgarden. Now this is a real family. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Jon united the North to fight against the Night King and helped break the barriers that existed between the wildlings and the rest of Westeros.  He saved the North and the rest of the world  from destruction and death by killing Daenerys before she could go on her world wide conquest of fire and blood.  His sacrifice of choosing duty over love lead to Bran being the king of Westeros and an independent North and the restoration of the Starks with Sansa as Queen.  Plus he got to return to the true North where he had earned the respect and love of the people rather than seeking a crown elsewhere which he never wanted or felt he deserved.   Dany and Jon were presented with difficult situations and then we got to see them struggling with the choices they made in reaction to those situations.  I think it is a character study into how their basic personality traits and life experiences shaped them and led two people with claims to the throne view their lives and values differently.  

Actually he was partly responsible for everything. He was presented with an opportunity like Jamie was but didn’t take it. Sansa and Arya warned him about her but he ignored them. Then he ignored the red flags when she burns Varys in front of him and turns around and threatens to kill Sansa and indirectly him if they spread his identity and rule everyone with fear. He should have killed her at that exact time like how Jamie did when Aerys when the latter talked about burning them all. I think he feels partially responsible for the deaths as it was a result of his stupidity and love so I don’t see him partying in the true north. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Actually he was partly responsible for everything. He was presented with an opportunity like Jamie was but didn’t take it. Sansa and Arya warned him about her but he ignored them. Then he ignored the red flags when she burns Varys in front of him and turns around and threatens to kill Sansa and indirectly him if they spread his identity and rule everyone with fear. He should have killed her at that exact time like how Jamie did when Aerys when the latter talked about burning them all. I think he feels partially responsible for the deaths as it was a result of his stupidity and love so I don’t see him partying in the true north. 

I NEVER said he was partying in the North. Afterall, he killed someone he loved and is at a low point in his life.  Luckily for him, he gets to be around people who love and respect him and accept him as the man he is. That should be of some comfort plus he is in the North which is preferable to the South for him.  The wildlings would probably make him King Beyond the Wall if he wanted it. They are his true friends and that counts for something when you don’t expect to ever see your family again or you could have been executed.  Not the worst ending in the world because it leaves open possibilities in the future. Death is final.   Also.....Jon ignored earlier signals because he wanted to believe in the best of Dany that so many of us saw too.  It was hard coming to terms that Dany ultimately chose the worst side of herself to kill innocents.

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I NEVER said he was partying in the North. Afterall, he killed someone he loved and is at a low point in his life.  Luckily for him, he gets to be around people who love and respect him and accept him as the man he is. That should be of some comfort plus he is in the North which is preferable to the South for him.  The wildlings would probably make him King Beyond the Wall if he wanted it. They are his true friends and that counts for something when you don’t expect to ever see your family again or you could have been executed.  Not the worst ending in the world because it leaves open possibilities in the future. Death is final.   Also.....Jon ignored earlier signals because he wanted to believe in the best of Dany that so many of us saw too.  It was hard coming to terms that Dany ultimately chose the worst side of herself to kill innocents.

I would have preferred it had he be given the choice to go there. It was forced upon him. He demonstrates a desire to visit his family members when he asks Arya to visit him so cutting them off from him seems cruel to me. Tyrion is equally guilty for asking him to kill her and he gets a reward in the form of being the effective king of the 6 kingdoms. I personally do not see it as a great ending not just because there was no choice for Jon but also the wildlings go back to embracing isolation after 5 seasons of them trying to get back into civilisation. They were offered fertile lands and they refused it. 

It was only him that ignored it which is what puts the blame on him. Sansa and Varys both saw it coming. Both of them warned him. Dany actually showed him by threatening to,kill Sansa in the same way as Varys. I don’t know why but he is acting like a total dolt this season.

Season 7 Jon to Dany- " With respect, I don’t need your permission. I am a king." "I don’t intend to bend the knee"

Season 8 "doormat" Jon- She is my queen. She will be a good queen. You don’t know her yet. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, random girl from westeros said:

What I mean by bigger meaning is that Jon wasn't The Chosen One. He was not Neo. It was the choices he made and the circumstances. It doesn't mean that Jon' story is meaningless, it just doesn't have a Higher Meaning. 

I think the Chosen One trope is overplayed too. But there's a lot of room between that and what they did to Jon Snow. If you mean Destiny or 'will of the gods' by higher purpose, yeah I agree with you that it's good they didn't go there.

But the problem is they didn't really go anywhere with him. Again,  back to my point about real life, imagine I tell you a story about my day. I spend a long time explaining how my coworker was adopted. In fact, I intentionally craft it into my story as a big mysterious surprise that gets revealed. Then it turns out to have nothing significant to do with my story about how we solved some problem at work. This is how the conversation is going to go:

You: Wait so what was the point of him being adopted?

Me: Nothing really. I mean it affects his self perception, I guess.

You: But why did you build it up like a central aspect of your story?

Me: Well it's true! Not every detail in real life has some bigger purpose.

You: Yeah, fair enough. So why didn't you cut it out?

Me: I was world building for you.

You: Please don't tell me any more stories...

In all seriousness, I don't understand why people congratulate time ultimately spend on trivial nonsense that add little to the point of the story and justify it by pointing to real life, when in real life, that's the NUMBER 1 thing that harms good storytelling: emphasizing irrelevant details.

Edited by iprayiam

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Posted (edited)

Without Jon rallying the forces of the Wildlings and the Northmen they couldn't take Winterfell. The Knights of the Vale won the battle against the Boltons, but they attacked them from behind, I doubt they could take 6.000 Boltons men in a straight up fight in the North, or in a siege, they needed a distraction to take out them and Jon provided that distraction for them. They couldn't even siege Winterfell and couldn't take it without that Giant -Wun Wun- (who came to fight for Jon) helping them.

Then, without Jon's and Sam's knowledge (Jon sends Sam to learn about Dragonglass) of how to fight with the White Walkers, they would've no chance to win against the Night King's army , no one knew anything about Dragonglass and fire kills the wights, even if they did, no one would listen them and it would be too late to fight with the army of the dead, yes Jon didn't kill the Night King, Arya did, (and she came to Winterfell because Jon was KitN otherwise she was going to KL to kill Cersei) and without Jon they couldn't even get close to fight with the army of the dead, then the Southern kingdoms would fall one by one and not even Daenerys's dragons could stop that large army of the dead without the knowledge of how to fight with them.

As for R+L=J, it was not for Jon winning the Iron Throne, he never wanted it, he didn't even want to be KitN despite he loves the North, no way he would want to rule the Southern kingdoms from an iron chair. The revelation of R+L=J was for showing Daenerys's true face to Jon and to us to the viewers, he has seen and we've seen that Daenerys is a tyrant who would usurp her family members right for power. Before she gets into power, Jon sacrifced himself once again and stops the Tyrant.

Edited by RYShh

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