Why didn't Jon simply refuse to accept banishment?

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Thing is that Jon's punishment isn't tied to his NW oath. Tyrion said his punishment was those three things very specifically (no land, no wife, no children), not taking the NW oath which I guess wouldn't exist anymore. 

This is the NW oath, and with no more Others, it doesn't really make sense anymore. Nothing left to watch.

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come." 

And the reasons for Jon not to do those three things are important in principle: Jon is Aegon, the last Targ and people will use him for the throne. He can't hold lands as that's a step in that direction. He also can't take a wife or have kids. More Targs running about means more wars. Especially with a dragon out there and given that Targs get kinda obsessive about them. Bad, bad idea. 

Too bad we will never know for sure what happens next.

[Kaapstad]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Thing is that Jon's punishment isn't tied to his NW oath. Tyrion said his punishment was those three things very specifically (no land, no wife, no children), not taking the NW oath which I guess wouldn't exist anymore. 

This is the NW oath, and with no more Others, it doesn't really make sense anymore. Nothing left to watch.

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come." 

And the reasons for Jon not to do those three things are important in principle: Jon is Aegon, the last Targ and people will use him for the throne. He can't hold lands as that's a step in that direction. He also can't take a wife or have kids. More Targs running about means more wars. Especially with a dragon out there and given that Targs get kinda obsessive about them. Bad, bad idea. 

So in other words none of this still resolves whether Jon is still in the NW or he went to live with the free folk permanently. At least with Frodo in LOTR we had confirmation on him. We are going to be debating on this for eternity unless GRRM finishes the series or D&D give an interview. 

[nyser1]

Because the show ruined season 8 and the series.

[CrypticWeirwood]

On 6/6/2019 at 7:13 AM, Rikard said:

Also the Dragon Pit is inside the walls of King's Landing. The members of the Great Council are effectively hostages of Grey Worm, Master of War. He commands not only the Unsullied but the Dothraki. No one of note commands the Northern Army, an undisciplined rabble. He's holding all the cards, and could just as well claim the throne himself. That he doesn't can only be explained by the Council paying him to leave Westeros with his warriors. The sum must be enormous to compensate them for all their effort and losses.

Eunuchs cannot be lord of anything,  let alone kings. This is a concept so deeply embedded in the system that historically castration was sometimes used by winners of conflicts (including of failed coups) to guarantee that there could be no issue to threaten them ever again.  

[Rikard]

13 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Eunuchs cannot be lord of anything,  let alone kings. This is a concept so deeply embedded in the system that historically castration was sometimes used by winners of conflicts (including of failed coups) to guarantee that there could be no issue to threaten them ever again.  

Power trumps everything. Grey Worm could have styled himself anyway he pleased, Lord Protector, Dictator, President, First Counsel, Chairman of the Central Committee, whatever. And if not a eunuch what was Bran? Tyrion considered the inability to father children an admirable quality in a king.  However, Grey Worm had little like for the bigoted, murderous ingrates of Westeros, and would prefer to take the money and leave.

[RYShh]

Being a eunuch has nothing to do with it. Theon could easily be the King of the Iron Islands in the kingsmoot. The problem is Grey Worm is a foreigner and he has no ties with Westeros. He needs to conquer every kingdom for doing that, because lords of westeros would never accept him as anything, they wouldn't even accept him as a Lord in Westeros because he is a foreigner who was born in Essos and came to Westeros just recently. The lords of Westeros even kept asking Littlefinger's ancestors, even though Baelish was born in Westeros his ancestors were from Essos and it was always a problem in the eyes of the Westeros nobles. Even Aegon was a noble from Valyrian Freehold so they accepted his rule only after conquering 6 kingdoms, Grey Worm is a commoner and he has what? 2.000 or 3.000 Unsullied and a couple of hundred Dothraki under his command? They could even lose to the Northern and the Vale armies in a straight fight, let alone if the kingdoms join forces they would get crushed against the lords of Westeros. The only thing that made them formidable against the Westeros armies were the Dragons and Daenerys just died and Drogon took her body and flew away. 

Jon probably surrendered himself to them after feeling guilty about killing Daenerys, if he didn't Unsullied couldn't even take him from the Northern and the Vale armies, that was the only advantage the Unsullied has. Why do you think they were negotiating with the lords of Westeros? They wanted to kill Jon Snow, but they didn't. Because they knew they would face with the consequences if they did. So Grey Worm couldn't do anything by himself, holding an already destroyed KL means nothing.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

23 hours ago, RYShh said:

Being a eunuch has nothing to do with it. Theon could easily be the King of the Iron Islands in the kingsmoot. The problem is Grey Worm is a foreigner and he has no ties with Westeros. He needs to conquer every kingdom for doing that, because lords of westeros would never accept him as anything, they wouldn't even accept him as a Lord in Westeros because he is a foreigner who was born in Essos and came to Westeros just recently. The lords of Westeros even kept asking Littlefinger's ancestors, even though Baelish was born in Westeros his ancestors were from Essos and it was always a problem in the eyes of the Westeros nobles. Even Aegon was a noble from Valyrian Freehold so they accepted his rule only after conquering 6 kingdoms, Grey Worm is a commoner and he has what? 2.000 or 3.000 Unsullied and a couple of hundred Dothraki under his command? They could even lose to the Northern and the Vale armies in a straight fight, let alone if the kingdoms join forces they would get crushed against the lords of Westeros. The only thing that made them formidable against the Westeros armies were the Dragons and Daenerys just died and Drogon took her body and flew away. 

Jon probably surrendered himself to them after feeling guilty about killing Daenerys, if he didn't Unsullied couldn't even take him from the Northern and the Vale armies, that was the only advantage the Unsullied has. Why do you think they were negotiating with the lords of Westeros? They wanted to kill Jon Snow, but they didn't. Because they knew they would face with the consequences if they did. So Grey Worm couldn't do anything by himself, holding an already destroyed KL means nothing.

There was a northern army at the gates they told us this in the episode. Davos even offered them land and exchange for Jon. I am not sure Davos had the right to do that but he did. 

[Kaapstad]

On 6/10/2019 at 7:57 PM, RYShh said:

Being a eunuch has nothing to do with it. Theon could easily be the King of the Iron Islands in the kingsmoot. The problem is Grey Worm is a foreigner and he has no ties with Westeros. He needs to conquer every kingdom for doing that, because lords of westeros would never accept him as anything, they wouldn't even accept him as a Lord in Westeros because he is a foreigner who was born in Essos and came to Westeros just recently. The lords of Westeros even kept asking Littlefinger's ancestors, even though Baelish was born in Westeros his ancestors were from Essos and it was always a problem in the eyes of the Westeros nobles. Even Aegon was a noble from Valyrian Freehold so they accepted his rule only after conquering 6 kingdoms, Grey Worm is a commoner and he has what? 2.000 or 3.000 Unsullied and a couple of hundred Dothraki under his command? They could even lose to the Northern and the Vale armies in a straight fight, let alone if the kingdoms join forces they would get crushed against the lords of Westeros. The only thing that made them formidable against the Westeros armies were the Dragons and Daenerys just died and Drogon took her body and flew away. 

Jon probably surrendered himself to them after feeling guilty about killing Daenerys, if he didn't Unsullied couldn't even take him from the Northern and the Vale armies, that was the only advantage the Unsullied has. Why do you think they were negotiating with the lords of Westeros? They wanted to kill Jon Snow, but they didn't. Because they knew they would face with the consequences if they did. So Grey Worm couldn't do anything by himself, holding an already destroyed KL means nothing.

 

Question is why was no one in that council asking for Grey Worm and the others to be punished? They destroyed Kings Landing and murdered hundreds of thousands of innocents. Surely here should be some punishment for that. What should have happened was "Give us Jon Snow and we will let you go in peace". Grey Worm was killing unarmed Lannister soldiers just because Cersei killed his girlfriend. By Dany’s own logic if the innocents and the Lannister soldiers are responsible for Cersei’s sins surely Grey Worm is responsible for Dany’s?

[Rast-afari]

6 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

 

Question is why was no one in that council asking for Grey Worm and the others to be punished? They destroyed Kings Landing and murdered hundreds of thousands of innocents. Surely here should be some punishment for that. What should have happened was "Give us Jon Snow and we will let you go in peace". Grey Worm was killing unarmed Lannister soldiers just because Cersei killed his girlfriend. By Dany’s own logic if the innocents and the Lannister soldiers are responsible for Cersei’s sins surely Grey Worm is responsible for Dany’s?

The council didn't mention the slaughter of Kings Landing because they probably didn't care. They care about their own people and let's face it, while Dany was responsible for most of the destruction the Northern army was contributing as well so that would be a can of worms better left un-opened.

As for Grey Worm, he's following his Queen's lead. I don't know if Westerous has specific rules for the treatment of unarmed combatants or P.O.W.s but in history it was at the discretion of the King whether they were executed or ransomed.

[legba11]

Punishing the Dothraki and Unsullied for KL (or anything) would mean war between those forces and the Westeros forces.  At that point, you have to make the practical decision and just let them leave, regardless of how you feel about their actions.

[Rose of Red Lake]

 

On 6/7/2019 at 8:18 AM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

NW becomes a tourist attraction because of the peaceful reign of the Starks. War Hero Jon Snow will gave ranging tours for rich nobles who missed out on the Wars.

lol but in all seriousness, the Night's Watch should really be defending the borders - ALL of them. Not just the Northern one with the cool theme park ride to the top of the Wall.

[Kaapstad]

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

lol but in all seriousness, the Night's Watch should really be defending the borders - ALL of them. Not just the Northern one with the cool theme park ride to the top of the Wall.

One thing about it doesn’t make sense. Tyrion tells Jon they are going to continue sending bastards and broken men there so if that’s true, is Jon really the head of a prison and are the wildlings going to be okay with murderers and rapists being sent there?

[RYShh]

On 6/11/2019 at 6:27 PM, Kaapstad said:

 

Question is why was no one in that council asking for Grey Worm and the others to be punished? They destroyed Kings Landing and murdered hundreds of thousands of innocents. Surely here should be some punishment for that. What should have happened was "Give us Jon Snow and we will let you go in peace". Grey Worm was killing unarmed Lannister soldiers just because Cersei killed his girlfriend. By Dany’s own logic if the innocents and the Lannister soldiers are responsible for Cersei’s sins surely Grey Worm is responsible for Dany’s?

I agree with this;

18 hours ago, Rast-afari said:

The council didn't mention the slaughter of Kings Landing because they probably didn't care. They care about their own people and let's face it, while Dany was responsible for most of the destruction the Northern army was contributing as well so that would be a can of worms better left un-opened.

As for Grey Worm, he's following his Queen's lead. I don't know if Westerous has specific rules for the treatment of unarmed combatants or P.O.W.s but in history it was at the discretion of the King whether they were executed or ransomed.

In addition to the Northern army, Knights of the Vale were also there. 

2 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

One thing about it doesn’t make sense. Tyrion tells Jon they are going to continue sending bastards and broken men there so if that’s true, is Jon really the head of a prison and are the wildlings going to be okay with murderers and rapists being sent there?

Jon was leading the Free Folk to behind the wall, they will not stay on the wall, only the NW will stay.

[Kaapstad]

32 minutes ago, RYShh said:

I agree with this;

In addition to the Northern army, Knights of the Vale were also there. 

Jon was leading the Free Folk to behind the wall, they will not stay on the wall, only the NW will stay.

But I expected that they would be sent among the wildlings as some sort of community service. What’s the point keeping them at the NW with nothing to do?

[RYShh]

4 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

But I expected that they would be sent among the wildlings as some sort of community service. What’s the point keeping them at the NW with nothing to do?

Tormund and the Free Folk stayed on the Wall temporarily they just waited the winter storms to pass, he already said they will return to the north of the wall afterwards, they were not going to stay on the Wall.

 

[Kaapstad]

12 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Tormund and the Free Folk stayed on the Wall temporarily they just waited the winter storms to pass, he already said they will return to the north of the wall afterwards, they were not going to stay on the Wall.

 

What I mean is after Jon goes away with the free folk and Tyrion sends criminals there, what will these criminals do at the NW? Who will manage them. I thought they would be sent to live with the wildlings.

[RYShh]

2 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

What I mean is after Jon goes away with the free folk and Tyrion sends criminals there, what will these criminals do at the NW? Who will manage them. I thought they would be sent to live with the wildlings.

Who said Jon will stay with free folk? He is a NW still, no one said anything about leaving the NW.

[Kaapstad]

3 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Who said Jon will stay with free folk? He is a NW still, no one said anything about leaving the NW.

This new information says that he left the NW and his past life forever. He is going with the wildlings to stay with them and doesn’t plan to return south of the wall ever again. This what D&D told Ramin Djawadi  

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-ramin-djawadi-season-8-finale-interview-2019-6

On Jon’s ending

Djawadi [continued]: Originally [he was] with the Night's Watch, and you're not allowed to have a wife and children and all that, but this is him going out there with the wildlings, and you can interpret it like he's starting a new life. He's a changed man, and he's leaving the past behind, and so it's definitely supposed to be something positive. There are many possibilities now — that's how we can look at it.

 

[RYShh]

20 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

This new information says that he left the NW and his past life forever. He is going with the wildlings to stay with them and doesn’t plan to return south of the wall ever again. This what D&D told Ramin Djawadi  

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-ramin-djawadi-season-8-finale-interview-2019-6

On Jon’s ending

Djawadi [continued]: Originally [he was] with the Night's Watch, and you're not allowed to have a wife and children and all that, but this is him going out there with the wildlings, and you can interpret it like he's starting a new life. He's a changed man, and he's leaving the past behind, and so it's definitely supposed to be something positive. There are many possibilities now — that's how we can look at it.

 

So he lied to Arya when he says she can come and see him on the Wall? As well as he lied to Tyrion too? Nice. I always thought he was just leading them and then he would return to castle black and he still wears the ''black cloak''. Mance Rayder complained when he saw Jon for the second time with that outfit. Free Folk don't like the black cloak.

If he stays there I would say that's a problem on its own. But anyways, who cares who leads the NW? It's not really important anymore other than few wildings attacks and that's not going to happen for a while when Jon is with them.

[legba11]

6 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

What I mean is after Jon goes away with the free folk and Tyrion sends criminals there, what will these criminals do at the NW? Who will manage them. I thought they would be sent to live with the wildlings.

The same people who handled them before.  Until the events which begin the series, there was no one alive in NW who had ever dealt with the undead.  They will return to what they were, an under-powered shield against wildling raids.

 

6 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

This new information says that he left the NW and his past life forever. He is going with the wildlings to stay with them and doesn’t plan to return south of the wall ever again. This what D&D told Ramin Djawadi  

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-ramin-djawadi-season-8-finale-interview-2019-6

On Jon’s ending

Djawadi [continued]: Originally [he was] with the Night's Watch, and you're not allowed to have a wife and children and all that, but this is him going out there with the wildlings, and you can interpret it like he's starting a new life. He's a changed man, and he's leaving the past behind, and so it's definitely supposed to be something positive. There are many possibilities now — that's how we can look at it.

 

That is a huge leap from a vague quote from a guy who certainly was not a part of writing and not given information.  He says as much in the beginning of the article.