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TheNecromancerofMirkwood

Why didn't Jon simply refuse to accept banishment?

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6 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

With what army on the part of The Iron Islands? With what fleet (since Drogon annihilated The Iron Fleet)? They're literally the tiniest "kingdom". The Unsullied are INSIDE the walls of Kings Landing while the Northern army is OUTSIDE with all the baggage train and ships.

Don't forget the Ironborn are capable of building a thousand ships in a couple of weeks and the Dothraki are able to regenerate.

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27 minutes ago, shawnpmcd said:

Guys, he isn’t in the NW.  he’s the King Beyond The Wall.  That’s what the last scene was showing. 

I think he more or less controls both. 

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18 hours ago, RYShh said:

They don't care about House Targaryen, especially the Unsullied. Yara also wouldn't care, why would she? You think she would fight for House Targaryen? They were free to do whatever they want, she was even going to follow his father Balon's footsteps, an independent Iron Islands. No, she swear fealty to Daenerys, not to House Targaryen.

Yara only says your ancestors defeated ours and that she has no problem with Dany being the queen. But the issue is in House Targaryen, Dany has no legal claim to the throne ergo Jon can do anything to stop her as she was never the rightful queen in the first place. So  Yara May bend her knee to someone who never had a right to the throne but she can’t stop the rightful heir from killing an usurper. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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14 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I can’t tell the cloaks apart. I know when he is wearing all black with no little wolves on his clothes then he is NW. 

 

13 hours ago, oggy1324 said:

I think Jon likes to be at the Wall than be pardoned

 

13 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

In the epilogue it appears he is getting ready for his departure and emerges in the same place he always exited as Lord Commander.  He pauses at the top of the walkway and gazes down at the NW and the wildlings as if he was their leader and in command.   I know he does not have on the Stark cloak that Sansa made him.  When he arrived back at Castle Back it looked like he was wearing that cloak. Guess we will never know for sure.

The HBO official synopsis of the episode says he is only guiding the freefolk home. It doesn’t say that he went to live with them. So officially he is still NW. 

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13 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

It would be a new precedent and changing thousands of years of history if a king or queen exerted their power to change the rules and oaths of the NW.  Somehow I don’t think Jon would like special treatment just because his relatives have power.  

He already got special treatment. The Unsullied did not execute him for the sole reason that he was Dany’s boyfriend.  Stannis was willing to pardon Jon. So no reason Sansa can’t. 

I may be wrong in this interpretation but when Tyrion said he would meet Jon at the wall in a few years, I think it implied Tyrion was giving a hint that he would pardon Jon and deliver the order to him by hand so as to give him the good news by hand. 

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1 hour ago, shawnpmcd said:

Guys, he isn’t in the NW.  he’s the King Beyond The Wall.  That’s what the last scene was showing. 

He is wearing the NW uniform and the official synopsis says he is only guiding them home. I don’t think he is king beyond the wall and the wildlings don’t need  a king as they only elected one for the sole reason of going south away from danger. 

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11 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

 

 

The HBO official synopsis of the episode says he is only guiding the freefolk home. It doesn’t say that he went to live with them. So officially he is still NW. 

I always believed he was still NW. The concept of Jon abandoning NW even if it has no purpose at the moment is weird 

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More simply because that was his character all along with no ambition for power. He was elected king of the north by accident, then the revelation of his identity comes and promises to Dany he doesn’t want to make a use out of it. He is honest at least about it, I think he accepts his “punishment” as a way to break free from all the toxic environment and also to redeem himself for taking a life. Kind of... 

 

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16 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

With what army on the part of The Iron Islands? With what fleet (since Drogon annihilated The Iron Fleet)? They're literally the tiniest "kingdom". The Unsullied are INSIDE the walls of Kings Landing while the Northern army is OUTSIDE with all the baggage train and ships.

Also the Dragon Pit is inside the walls of King's Landing. The members of the Great Council are effectively hostages of Grey Worm, Master of War. He commands not only the Unsullied but the Dothraki. No one of note commands the Northern Army, an undisciplined rabble. He's holding all the cards, and could just as well claim the throne himself. That he doesn't can only be explained by the Council paying him to leave Westeros with his warriors. The sum must be enormous to compensate them for all their effort and losses.

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46 minutes ago, Rikard said:

Also the Dragon Pit is inside the walls of King's Landing. The members of the Great Council are effectively hostages of Grey Worm, Master of War. He commands not only the Unsullied but the Dothraki. No one of note commands the Northern Army, an undisciplined rabble. He's holding all the cards, and could just as well claim the throne himself. That he doesn't can only be explained by the Council paying him to leave Westeros with his warriors. The sum must be enormous to compensate them for all their effort and losses.

They have no experience to rule Westeros. And you can’t just kill the emissaries at a peace meeting. If they had decided on war, honour bounds them to allow them to leave. That’s also why Cersei didn’t just shoot Dany and Drogon when they came for negotiation when she easily could have. 

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4 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I always believed he was still NW. The concept of Jon abandoning NW even if it has no purpose at the moment is weird 

Yeah. I wish they had given some clarification on what the purpose of the NW is. I also don’t understand what was the need to give contradicting symbolism. The uniform, longclaw and his statement to Arya to meet him at Castle Black contradict that forlorn look he gives at the door closing and his smile and his fading into the forest. It’s as if they wanted to satisfy both groups of fans. One who want him to be king beyond the wall and leave Westeros permanently. Second those who want him to stay in civilisation and be some sort of a diplomatic liaison between the wildlings and the north. 

 

 

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On 6/5/2019 at 7:08 AM, RYShh said:

It is, but Jon goes to the North, and the Wall belongs to Sansa as well. So it was their consensus, both Bran and Sansa. Otherwise Sansa wouldn't listen them as long as Jon stays at the North.

The Wall belongs to Sansa? I can understand if you haven’t read the books but even in the abomination I believe they showed the NW being an autonomous organization. Neither the Wall nor the NW belong to any ruler. We can argue if the King of the seven kingdoms had any real jurisdiction over the NW. That’s a debate that’s being ongoing on the book forums. The Starks as Lords of WF didn’t have any authority or jurisdiction over the NW.

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1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

Yeah. I wish they had given some clarification on what the purpose of the NW is. I also don’t understand what was the need to give contradicting symbolism. The uniform, longclaw and his statement to Arya to meet him at Castle Black contradict that forlorn look he gives at the door closing and his smile and his fading into the forest. It’s as if they wanted to satisfy both groups of fans. One who want him to be king beyond the wall and leave Westeros permanently. Second those who want him to stay in civilisation and be some sort of a diplomatic liaison between the wildlings and the north. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, oggy1324 said:

Maybe he's both since there is no barrier between wildlings and the realm anymore

 

 

I think he can be both. He can be a leader with the community of wildlings and protect the kids and range for the Night’s Watch. He keeps his “vows” but help resettle the wildlings. He goes back to castle black as needed. We know that Benjen was a ranger and he was able to visit home from time to time because he was very close to Jon.

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2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The Wall belongs to Sansa? I can understand if you haven’t read the books but even in the abomination I believe they showed the NW being an autonomous organization. Neither the Wall nor the NW belong to any ruler. We can argue if the King of the seven kingdoms had any real jurisdiction over the NW. That’s a debate that’s being ongoing on the book forums. The Starks as Lords of WF didn’t have any authority or jurisdiction over the NW.

Season 3 episode 9 (I believe). Bran talks about the gift. The NW is responsible for that land. One reason there will always be a Nights Watch. 

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19 hours ago, RYShh said:

That's true, however now the North is independent they can act differently. Sansa can give a royal pardon to any Night's Watch recruit if she wants. Robb was going to pardon Jon in the books after losing Bran and Rickon, as well as Stannis was going to do the same since he wanted a loyal Warden of the North. If Sansa wants she can do that, so it must be a consensus between all the kings and queens, especially King/Queen in the North is more important since they have the North and the Wall is in the North, they can easily get there unlike the Southern kingdoms can.

There’s no pardon of Jon in the books. Robb was arguing with Cat in the books of releasing Jon from his NW vows, which Robb in his mind thinks he can do, but Cat wasn’t so sure. Robb argues if he gives a 100 men to the NW, the NW would then release Jon from his vows. Similarly, Stannis also thinks as King of the seven kingdoms, he can release Jon from his vows. And the authority of the King of Westeros over the NW has been an ongoing debate.

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3 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Season 3 episode 9 (I believe). Bran talks about the gift. The NW is responsible for that land. One reason there will always be a Nights Watch. 

Yeah but what does the Gift have to do with the NW autonomous status.

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15 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The Wall belongs to Sansa? I can understand if you haven’t read the books but even in the abomination I believe they showed the NW being an autonomous organization. Neither the Wall nor the NW belong to any ruler. We can argue if the King of the seven kingdoms had any real jurisdiction over the NW. That’s a debate that’s being ongoing on the book forums. The Starks as Lords of WF didn’t have any authority or jurisdiction over the NW.

I read the books, you understand nothing. Robb was going to pardon Jon after Bran's and Rickon's death in the books, and Stannis was going to do the same and if Jon wanted it he would be Jon Stark and Warden of the North, and rejected Stannis's offer. Royal pardon all that matters. Even Kingsguards can be pardoned and they can take different tasks if the Kings/Queens decides. NW or any other organization needs to obey them, otherwise they would get nothing, no men, no resources and they would be destroyed without their help.

Edited by RYShh

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