Why didn't Jon simply refuse to accept banishment?

[Kaapstad]

9 hours ago, legba11 said:

The same people who handled them before.  Until the events which begin the series, there was no one alive in NW who had ever dealt with the undead.  They will return to what they were, an under-powered shield against wildling raids.

 

That is a huge leap from a vague quote from a guy who certainly was not a part of writing and not given information.  He says as much in the beginning of the article.

He said he discussed the Jon scene with D&D and him leaving with the freefolk is the official interpretation. 

Renfro: Did you have any conversations with showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss about what is going on with Jon specifically? I feel like the shows ends on this optimistic note, where he's half-smiling and there are children around him. The children's presence felt really important in that scene, because it's this mark of the future and possibility. At the same time it's a little sad, because he's going into exile, basically, and leaving behind his past life. Were there conversations about that?

Djawadi: Yeah, absolutely. The idea is really that he stops and he looks back, and then the main title starts, and it's the idea of a new beginning. It's supposed to be positive and yeah, like you said, the fact that there are children around and [other] people — he's not just by himself.

And then he replies what happens.

Djawadi [continued]: Originally [he was] with the Night's Watch, and you're not allowed to have a wife and children and all that, but this is him going out there with the wildlings, and you can interpret it like he's starting a new life. He's a changed man, and he's leaving the past behind, and so it's definitely supposed to be something positive. There are many possibilities now — that's how we can look at it.

[legba11]

Yes they described the scene which is exactly what we saw.  Which says nothing about what Jon is doing long-term.  He is leaving with the wildlings....  to do what????

 

I am leaving for work in a few minutes, does that mean I am abandoning my dog and house?

Last night I left for dinner with my friends.  Does that mean I now live with them forever?

 

It's stupid to even parse his words as they are his words, not the writers.    (So why did I bother to?)

 

You can leap to any conclusion you want to prove the ending you are so hellbent on finding proof for.  The proof isn't there and we don't know what happened.  I believe that was very intentional. Dumb and Dumber think they are auteurs and like to mimick the work of actual auteurs.  I don't find it too surprising they may have mimicked the the most highly regarded show in the history of television for their ending. (The Sopranos).  If you like to think you abandoned his post again, that is your option.  People who like to think Jon held to his honor can think that as well.  That is the point of an ambiguous ending.

[Kaapstad]

8 minutes ago, legba11 said:

Yes they described the scene which is exactly what we saw.  Which says nothing about what Jon is doing long-term.  He is leaving with the wildlings....  to do what????

 

I am leaving for work in a few minutes, does that mean I am abandoning my dog and house?

Last night I left for dinner with my friends.  Does that mean I now live with them forever?

 

It's stupid to even parse his words as they are his words, not the writers.    (So why did I bother to?)

 

You can leap to any conclusion you want to prove the ending you are so hellbent on finding proof for.  The proof isn't there and we don't know what happened.  I believe that was very intentional. Dumb and Dumber think they are auteurs and like to mimick the work of actual auteurs.  I don't find it too surprising they may have mimicked the the most highly regarded show in the history of television for their ending. (The Sopranos).  If you like to think you abandoned his post again, that is your option.  People who like to think Jon held to his honor can think that as well.  That is the point of an ambiguous ending.

There is still a chance we can get to know the ending directly from the writers. If Episode 6 which HBO has nominated to the Emmy for the Best Writing award, wins it(which is very likely as Season 7 won it last year), then the script for Episode 6 will be published on their website which will conclusively prove what the writers intended. Otherwise we have to wait for an interview from D&D. Sophie Turner has gone through the script. She says Jon ends up at the Nights Watch. Not with the wildlings. So for now it’s just a matter of who do you want to believe. If you believe the HBO synopsis and Sophie, he held onto his honour and he is at the NW. If you believe Ramin and HBO Production Diaries, he ends up leaving Westeros with the wildlings. I just give more weightage to Ramin because his musical notes do imply what the character is doing at that point and he was told what would be the setup directly by the writers. He knows the story deeply. 

[legba11]

That is true, same way we know that Cersei actually was pregnant last year.  We'll agree to disagree on what those notes mean, though I don't think Sophie Turner is more credible for this question.  Likely a bit less as they'd have no reason to tell her.

[Kaapstad]

4 minutes ago, legba11 said:

That is true, same way we know that Cersei actually was pregnant last year.  We'll agree to disagree on what those notes mean, though I don't think Sophie Turner is more credible for this question.  Likely a bit less as they'd have no reason to tell her.

Sophie read the script for 8x06. The entire one including Jon's part. So I personally think the script doesn't mention this which is why HBO's official synopsis reads the way it does. The writers may give their personal opinion in an interview just like how Ramin asked D&D, but then does that make it canon to the story line if the script doesn't mention it?

[Mystical]

9 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Sophie read the script for 8x06. The entire one including Jon's part. So I personally think the script doesn't mention this which is why HBO's official synopsis reads the way it does. The writers may give their personal opinion in an interview just like how Ramin asked D&D, but then does that make it canon to the story line if the script doesn't mention it?

If it's not on screen, it isn't canon. Interviews and even scripts don't matter. The actors had to come up with answers for years as to what motivated their characters because D&D didn't give them anything to work with. Sophie is a good example of this because she had to deal with a lot of 'why did Sansa do x?' over the last few Seasons. Her answer is usually 'I don't know, no one told me.'. Some people love to use interviews as proof of their canon view but really, considering the actors have no idea why their characters do what they do (because D&D don't tell them) and I'd venture even D&D don't know, interviews should be disregarded entirely.

[carlingeight]

Reading this thread gets me wondering how Jon's ending could have been any worse.  Just thinking of the alternatives..

-Jon on the iron throne, Dany dead

-Jon marries Dany, shares the iron throne

-Jon King in the North

-Jon Warden of the North

-Jon dies in battle

 

Even following the nonsensical 'banishment' storyline, I don't see how even the last scene could be much worse.  Again a few alternatives..

-Jon rebuilding the NW

-Jon helping the North/Winterfell

-Jon shown settling/leading the free folk

-Jon meeting Ygritte v2.0

 

It honestly feels like they couldn't think of a good way to conclude Jon's arc in the time they had, so just decided to nuke him instead.  Strip away as much meaning as possible and go for the absolute bare minimum they could get away with.  All the alternatives I mentioned would have required more effort, which I guess is why they didn't happen.

[Kaapstad]

4 hours ago, Mystical said:

If it's not on screen, it isn't canon. Interviews and even scripts don't matter. The actors had to come up with answers for years as to what motivated their characters because D&D didn't give them anything to work with. Sophie is a good example of this because she had to deal with a lot of 'why did Sansa do x?' over the last few Seasons. Her answer is usually 'I don't know, no one told me.'. Some people love to use interviews as proof of their canon view but really, considering the actors have no idea why their characters do what they do (because D&D don't tell them) and I'd venture even D&D don't know, interviews should be disregarded entirely.

Except the issue is they showed us nothing on screen wrt Jon so we will have to refer to those sources to find out what happened to him. 

[Mystical]

20 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Except the issue is they showed us nothing on screen wrt Jon so we will have to refer to those sources to find out what happened to him. 

Why? If it's not clearly spelled out on screen, then you can go with the scenario that best suits your understanding of the character or how you wish it would end. For those who want Jon to be with the Free Folk or even King beyond the Wall, they are free to do so. For those who think him being back in the NW is the fitting end, that works too. Doesn't really matter what's said outside of the show...

[Kaapstad]

13 hours ago, Mystical said:

Why? If it's not clearly spelled out on screen, then you can go with the scenario that best suits your understanding of the character or how you wish it would end. For those who want Jon to be with the Free Folk or even King beyond the Wall, they are free to do so. For those who think him being back in the NW is the fitting end, that works too. Doesn't really matter what's said outside of the show...

Because they didn’t tell us what the purpose of the NW was. If they wanted him to end with the wildlings why not just tell Greyworm directly to banish him beyond the wall. Why was the NW brought into the discussion when it had no purpose?

[Daemon of the Blacks]

Because Jon genuinely thinks he has committed an act he deserves to be punished for. Why would honorable Jon Snow refuse to accept punishment for a crime he deeply feels is punishable. It would be out of character for him to try and worm his way out of this. 

[Kaapstad]

1 hour ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Because Jon genuinely thinks he has committed an act he deserves to be punished for. Why would honorable Jon Snow refuse to accept punishment for a crime he deeply feels is punishable. It would be out of character for him to try and worm his way out of this. 

According to some, he already did by going away with the wildlings

[StarksTogetherOutrageously]

Putting aside what the Jon wants and focusing on the question of whether it’s possible for Jon to be pardoned, I would say yes. The NW is an autonomous organization. I don’t think they have to accept a pardon if they don’t want to. However, the question, as always, comes down to power. If Sansa decides to pardon Jon, what can they do to bring him back if he gets away? They don’t have the strength to fight the North to bring him back. Enforcing the NW vows came down to the monarchs and lords of Westeros recognizing them and either executing deserters or sending them back to the wall. Sansa is a monarch in the North. If she issues a pardon, Jon won’t be touched by anyone in the North should he decide to live in the North. However, his pardon wouldn’t extend to the South. 

What the NW can do is ask the South to enforce Jon’s sentence by asking King Bran to pressure the North into returning him through diplomatic means or even through war. The question is how much do King Bran and the southern lords want to enforce the sentence? Since some of the southern lords wanted Jon punished, it would be a tricky political situation for Bran in the south. Sansa, on the other hand, probably wouldn’t face backlash from the northern lords. He is the hero that helped save them from the Others and then freed them from tyrant Dany, allowing Sansa to secure their independence. He’a a hero to them, and I think they would defend him.

Considering what a tricky political situation it is, I don’t think Sansa and Bran would do it, at least not within the next decade or so. They need to solidify themselves as rulers first and allow people to calm down about the situation first. 

My initial interpretation of the last scene was that Jon left with the wildlings. Then I was convinced by the synopsis that Jon was with the NW. Then the interview with Ramin made me think that he left with the NW. It’s very vague. 

What I personally think will happen is that Jon will become the 1000th LC. That number is too significant for it to mean nothing. However, I don’t think he’ll stick around forever. We saw that the Stark kids’ direwolf names were foreshadowing for their endgame. A LC is not a ghost. His name is known throughout the realm. That’s why I think that one day Jon will simply disappear north of the wall to live with the wildlings.

It’s a very sad ending for him either way. I don’t think living with the wildlings is Jon’s preferred way of life, but it is preferable to serving a life sentence at the NW. While he came to understand them better through spending time with them, he still rejected their way of life.  After Stannis offers Jon Winterfell, we get a glimpse into Jon’s deepest desires. He has always wanted to be Lord of Winterfell and to have children. He joined the NW initially bc he didn’t have many options in life and he thought the NW was an a place where he could gain honor, a notion that he was quickly disabused of. Now he’s being sent there against his will. He looked heartbroken when Tyrion told him he will have no wife and children. I don’t think he actually wants to spend a celibate life alone at the wall. Since he doesn’t have the option of being with his family at Winterfell (unless Sansa decides to pardon him) and doesn’t have the option to start a family any place south of the wall, he will eventually end up going to the far north where he can’t be found, essentially ghosting all of Westeros. As guilty and heartbroken as he might be for killing Dany, he did it for a good reason. She turned out not to be the person he thought she was when he fell in love with her. And people do move on from their past love interests. By episode 6, I don’t think there was very much love there left. He looked horrified and angered by her actions, as well as afraid of her. His last words to her weren’t that he loved her, but that she was his queen. I think what will haunt him more is that he became a kinslayer, killed the monarch he pledged himself to, and killed a woman. It was dishonorable I’m so many ways. 

I think Arya was one of the last tethers holding him to the NW. If she had stayed in the North and come to visit him often, I think he might have stayed at the NW. Her leaving to explore  cut one of the last ropes binding him to anything south of the wall. Sam and Bran are in the south, so he probably won’t ever see them again. All he has is Sansa, and despite the fact that they forgive (they both have reasons to be angry at the other; Sansa was equally important to winning back the north, and Jon gave it away in a moment of passion; Sansa broke her oath and reveled Jon’s parentage) and love each other, I think there’s also a lot of tension in their relationship. Plus Sansa is a monarch. She can’t come visit him whenever she wants. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

I wonder whether in the books, Bran won't be able to visit Jon at will, or even Arya. They're both wargs, after all, and he's a greenseer. Didn't Bran already open Jon's third eye?

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

49 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I wonder whether in the books, Bran won't be able to visit Jon at will, or even Arya. They're both wargs, after all, and he's a greenseer. Didn't Bran already open Jon's third eye?

I am rereading A Clash of Kings and it seemed to me Jon was opening his third eye in one of his wolf dreams when he confronted a weirwood tree with a face that looked like his brother. He wondered if his brother had always had three eyes. The tree reached down and touched him and told him to open his third eye like this.  This is when he saw Mance Rayder gathering the freefolk along the Milkwater and knew their location. The warg eagle attacked Ghost with its talons.   Ghost was hurt when he returned to camp and Qhorin Halfhand knew then Jon was a warg and he told Qhorin about his dream.   What I don’t understand is how Bran was already the 3YR (crow) at that point in time.  He hadn’t even left Winterfell yet.  

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I am rereading A Clash of Kings and it seemed to me Jon was opening his third eye in one of his wolf dreams when he confronted a weirwood tree with a face that looked like his brother. He wondered if his brother had always had three eyes. The tree reached down and touched him and told him to open his third eye like this.  This is when he saw Mance Rayder gathering the freefolk along the Milkwater and knew their location. The warg eagle attacked Ghost with its talons.   Ghost was hurt when he returned to camp and Qhorin Halfhand knew then Jon was a warg and he told Qhorin about his dream.   What I don’t understand is how Bran was already the 3YR at that point in time.  He hadn’t even left Winterfell yet.  

Didn't Bloodraven open Bran's third eye after Jaime pushed him from the tower, either while falling or sometime before he woke from his coma?

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Didn't Bloodraven open Bran's third eye after Jaime pushed him from the tower, either while falling or sometime before he woke from his coma?

Yes......that has already happened.    EDIT: Just read this:

Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon.

So it happened while they were hiding in the crypts.

 

 

 

 

[Kaapstad]

12 hours ago, StarksTogetherOutrageously said:

Putting aside what the Jon wants and focusing on the question of whether it’s possible for Jon to be pardoned, I would say yes. The NW is an autonomous organization. I don’t think they have to accept a pardon if they don’t want to. However, the question, as always, comes down to power. If Sansa decides to pardon Jon, what can they do to bring him back if he gets away? They don’t have the strength to fight the North to bring him back. Enforcing the NW vows came down to the monarchs and lords of Westeros recognizing them and either executing deserters or sending them back to the wall. Sansa is a monarch in the North. If she issues a pardon, Jon won’t be touched by anyone in the North should he decide to live in the North. However, his pardon wouldn’t extend to the South. 

What the NW can do is ask the South to enforce Jon’s sentence by asking King Bran to pressure the North into returning him through diplomatic means or even through war. The question is how much do King Bran and the southern lords want to enforce the sentence? Since some of the southern lords wanted Jon punished, it would be a tricky political situation for Bran in the south. Sansa, on the other hand, probably wouldn’t face backlash from the northern lords. He is the hero that helped save them from the Others and then freed them from tyrant Dany, allowing Sansa to secure their independence. He’a a hero to them, and I think they would defend him.

Considering what a tricky political situation it is, I don’t think Sansa and Bran would do it, at least not within the next decade or so. They need to solidify themselves as rulers first and allow people to calm down about the situation first. 

My initial interpretation of the last scene was that Jon left with the wildlings. Then I was convinced by the synopsis that Jon was with the NW. Then the interview with Ramin made me think that he left with the NW. It’s very vague. 

What I personally think will happen is that Jon will become the 1000th LC. That number is too significant for it to mean nothing. However, I don’t think he’ll stick around forever. We saw that the Stark kids’ direwolf names were foreshadowing for their endgame. A LC is not a ghost. His name is known throughout the realm. That’s why I think that one day Jon will simply disappear north of the wall to live with the wildlings.

It’s a very sad ending for him either way. I don’t think living with the wildlings is Jon’s preferred way of life, but it is preferable to serving a life sentence at the NW. While he came to understand them better through spending time with them, he still rejected their way of life.  After Stannis offers Jon Winterfell, we get a glimpse into Jon’s deepest desires. He has always wanted to be Lord of Winterfell and to have children. He joined the NW initially bc he didn’t have many options in life and he thought the NW was an a place where he could gain honor, a notion that he was quickly disabused of. Now he’s being sent there against his will. He looked heartbroken when Tyrion told him he will have no wife and children. I don’t think he actually wants to spend a celibate life alone at the wall. Since he doesn’t have the option of being with his family at Winterfell (unless Sansa decides to pardon him) and doesn’t have the option to start a family any place south of the wall, he will eventually end up going to the far north where he can’t be found, essentially ghosting all of Westeros. As guilty and heartbroken as he might be for killing Dany, he did it for a good reason. She turned out not to be the person he thought she was when he fell in love with her. And people do move on from their past love interests. By episode 6, I don’t think there was very much love there left. He looked horrified and angered by her actions, as well as afraid of her. His last words to her weren’t that he loved her, but that she was his queen. I think what will haunt him more is that he became a kinslayer, killed the monarch he pledged himself to, and killed a woman. It was dishonorable I’m so many ways. 

I think Arya was one of the last tethers holding him to the NW. If she had stayed in the North and come to visit him often, I think he might have stayed at the NW. Her leaving to explore  cut one of the last ropes binding him to anything south of the wall. Sam and Bran are in the south, so he probably won’t ever see them again. All he has is Sansa, and despite the fact that they forgive (they both have reasons to be angry at the other; Sansa was equally important to winning back the north, and Jon gave it away in a moment of passion; Sansa broke her oath and reveled Jon’s parentage) and love each other, I think there’s also a lot of tension in their relationship. Plus Sansa is a monarch. She can’t come visit him whenever she wants. 

It’s stupid to say he would wait at the NW in an empty castle just for Arya. How often could Arya meet Jon? Probably 6-7 times in 30 days. So he would spend 24 days in the castle doing nothing for those 6 days?

As far as Sansa breaking her oath goes, Jon won’t hold that against her as he himself broke his oath to Dany by telling Sansa. Why would he be mad Sansa did the same?

 

 

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

6 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

As far as Sansa breaking her oath goes, Jon won’t hold that against her as he himself broke his oath to Dany by telling Sansa. Why would he be mad Sansa did the same?

He swore no oath that he would not tell his sister. He said he would, and Dany thought it a bad idea.

[Kaapstad]

3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

He swore no oath that he would not tell his sister. He said he would, and Dany thought it a bad idea.

Dany didn't interpret it that way. In Episode 5 she tells Tyrion "I told him not to tell Sansa and he didn't listen and told Sansa anyway. He has betrayed me." In that scene Jon says "You are my queen and they are my sisters. We can live together". Then she says "We can. I just told you how"