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Areisius

The character assassination of Daenerys

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Man, what a brutal pun that is. SMH. 

 

This video really puts in perspective Dany's abrupt character change from a graceful leader to a tyrant.

 

S02E05: The Ghost of Harrenhal
Jorah - You have a good claim. A title. A birthright. But you have something more than that. You may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart.
You would not only be respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule.


S03E03 - Walk of Punishment.
JORAH: If you want to sit on the throne your ancestors built you must win it, that will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done.
DAENERYS: The blood of my enemies, not the blood of innocents.


S05E01 - The Wars to Come
DAARIO: You're not the Mother of Unsullied. You're the Mother of Dragons.
DAENERYS: I don't want another child's bones dropped at my feet.


S03E07 - The Bear and the Maiden Fair
DAENERYS: How many slaves are there in Yunkai?
JORAH: 200,000. If not more.
DAENERYS: Then we have 200,000 reasons to take the city.


S07E02 - Stormborn
YARA: If you want the Iron Throne, take it. We have an army, a fleet, and three dragons.We should hit King's Landing now, hard, with everything we have. The city will fall within a day.
TYRION: If we turn the dragons loose, tens of thousands will die in the firestorms.
ELLARIA: It's called war. You don't have the stomach for it, scurry back into hiding.
TYRION: I know how you wage war. We don't poison little girls here. Myrcella was innocent.
ELLARIA: She was a Lannister. There are no innocent Lannisters. My greatest regret is that Oberyn died fighting for you.
DAENERYS: That's enough. Lord Tyrion is Hand of the Queen. You will treat him with respect. I am not here to be queen of the ashes.
OLENNA: That's very nice to hear. Of course, I can't remember a queen who was better loved than my granddaughter. The common people loved her. The nobles loved her. And what is left of her now? Ashes.


S07E05 - Eastwatch
DAENERYS: I know what Cersei has told you. That I've come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you, and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me.
I'm not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor to the benefit of no one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world.


S07E06 - Beyond the Wall
TYRION: Nobody trusts my sister less than I do, believe me. But if we go to the capital, we'll go with two armies, we'll go with three dragons, and anyone touches you, King's Landing burns down to the foundation stone.
DAENERYS: And right now she's thinking of how to set a trap. 
TYRION: Of cours she is. And she's wondering what trap you're laying for her.
DAENERYS: Are we? Laying any traps?
TYRION: If we want to create a new and better world, I'm not sure deceit and mass murder is the best way to start.
DAENERYS: Which war was won without deceit and mass murder? 
TYRION: Yes, you'll need to be ruthless if you're going to win the throne. You need to inspire a degree of fear. But fear is all Cersei has. It's all my father had And Joffrey. It makes their power brittle.
Because everyone beneath them longs to see them dead.

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Posted (edited)

Daenerys had tendencies towards tyranny, cruelty and megalomania from quite an early stage in the show, as well as much more admirable qualities.  But:-

(a) None of these tendencies was shown as being untypical for her world and her class;  

(b) there is no middle section in her character arc that makes the incineration of 500,000 civilians seem like a logical progression from what has gone before, and

(c) there is no rational trigger for her behaviour.  She's just won control of the most valuable piece of real estate in the world, with little trouble.  Then she destroys it for ……….reasons.

It would have been very easy for the show runners to provide that rational trigger, eg a surrender is arranged and then botched, leading Dany to suppose that she's been betrayed once again and punishment is required;  or actually show her soldiers losing the fight for the city, leaving her no option but to unleash hell on the inhabitants.  But, providing a rational trigger would have left her as a somewhat sympathetic figure, rather than a mad dog who has to be put down.

Alternatively, throughout Season 7, we could have seen her ordering increasingly brutal atrocities against inhabitants of areas controlled by Cersei, under the stress of war.  But, that would likely have hit merchandising sales. 

 

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for sharing the video.  I can't add much more.  Just a great breakdown of why the show, at a minimum, rushed the last season, and, at worst, just totally botched the ending.  It seems like D&D were more interested in shocking their audience than making sure the story was coherent at the end.  But, the shock of Dany's sudden turn to "make it personal" because "she's always been a Targaryen" where she suddenly kills thousands of innocents after having achieved her objectives is not a shock that made any sense.  

Edited by Lord Stackspear

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11 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

Thanks for sharing the video.  I can't add much more.  Just a great breakdown of why the show, at a minimum, rushed the last season, and, at worst, just totally botched the ending.  It seems like D&D were more interested in shocking their audience than making sure the story was coherent at the end.  But, the shock of Dany's sudden turn to "make it personal" because "she's always been a Targaryen" where she suddenly kills thousands of innocents after having achieved her objectives is not a shock that made any sense.  

If it's "personal" why torch your ancestors' own city, the place you've always dreamed of owning.

"Personal" would be if Cersei had fled to Casterly Rock and Daenerys systematically reduced it to molten lava, with everyone inside.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

 

It would have been very easy for the show runners to provide that rational trigger, eg a surrender is arranged and then botched, leading Dany to suppose that she's been betrayed once again and punishment is required;  or actually show her soldiers losing the fight for the city, leaving her no option but to unleash hell on the inhabitants.  But, providing a rational trigger would have left her as a somewhat sympathetic figure, rather than a mad dog who has to be put down.

 

 

That's what pisses me off the most...even the most simple-minded of writers could have put in a logical trigger to explain Danaerys' actions, but the dumb writers would rather concoct the idiotic plot contrivance of good old dependable Jon Snow euthenising the rabid dog queen and saving the realm from her lunatic grasp! Not even Walt Disney would resort to such artificial, inauthentic, treacherous storytelling. 

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37 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If it's "personal" why torch your ancestors' own city, the place you've always dreamed of owning.

"Personal" would be if Cersei had fled to Casterly Rock and Daenerys systematically reduced it to molten lava, with everyone inside.

It would have been nice to see Casterly Rock. And in fact, the ending you describe here is the one I've always imagined...Cersei' destroying Kings Landing and fleeing to CR, with Danaerys hot on her heels... literally!

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9 hours ago, Lord Stackspear said:

Thanks for sharing the video.  I can't add much more.  Just a great breakdown of why the show, at a minimum, rushed the last season, and, at worst, just totally botched the ending.  It seems like D&D were more interested in shocking their audience than making sure the story was coherent at the end.  But, the shock of Dany's sudden turn to "make it personal" because "she's always been a Targaryen" where she suddenly kills thousands of innocents after having achieved her objectives is not a shock that made any sense.  

Your welcome. This has been on my mind and I just had to make a thread about it.

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Daenerys had tendencies towards tyranny, cruelty and megalomania from quite an early stage in the show, as well as much more admirable qualities.  But:-

(a) None of these tendencies was shown as being untypical for her world and her class;  

(b) there is no middle section in her character arc that makes the incineration of 500,000 civilians seem like a logical progression from what has gone before, and

(c) there is no rational trigger for her behaviour.  She's just won control of the most valuable piece of real estate in the world, with little trouble.  Then she destroys it for ……….reasons.

It would have been very easy for the show runners to provide that rational trigger, eg a surrender is arranged and then botched, leading Dany to suppose that she's been betrayed once again and punishment is required;  or actually show her soldiers losing the fight for the city, leaving her no option but to unleash hell on the inhabitants.  But, providing a rational trigger would have left her as a somewhat sympathetic figure, rather than a mad dog who has to be put down.

Alternatively, throughout Season 7, we could have seen her ordering increasingly brutal atrocities against inhabitants of areas controlled by Cersei, under the stress of war.  But, that would likely have hit merchandising sales. 

 

Yeah, they just made sure to make it impossible for her to be redeemed. 

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Posted (edited)

S02E04
Daenerys - When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground. Turn us away and I will burn you first!
Spice King - Ah! You are a Targaryen!

S02E06
Daenerys - I will take what is mine with fire and blood.

S03E03
Daenerys - [Rhaegar] was not the last dragon.

S03E04
Varys - Littlefinger was born with no lands, no wealth, no armies. He acquired the first two, how long before he has the army? ... Littlefinger is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros... he would see this country burn if he could be the King of the Ashes.

Tyrion would tell a similar story in S05E07 about Daenerys' quest for lands, wealth, and armies.

S04E05
Daenerys - You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.

S04E07
Jorah - The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts. ... I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.

Daenerys would order Daario and the Second Sons to execute every master in Yunkai. Her first instinct is always violence and death with advisors that try to restrain her.

S04E07
Daenerys - They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.

S05E04
Daenerys - Who is innocent? Maybe all of you are, maybe none of you are. Maybe, I should let the dragons decide?

S05E10
Hizdahr - That is a vital part of the Great City of Meereen, which existed long before you and I and will remain standing long after we have returned to the dirt.
Daenerys - One day your great city will return to the dirt as well.
Hizdahr - At your command?
Daenerys - If need be.
Hizdahr - And how many people will die to make this happen?
Daenerys - If it comes to that, they will have died for a good reason.
Hizdahr - Those men (in the fighting pit) think they are dying for a good reason.
Daenerys - Someone else's reason.
Hizdahr - So your reasons are true and theirs are false? They don’t know their own minds, but you do?

S06E06
Daario - You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conqueror, Daenerys Stormborn.

S06E06
Daenerys - Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?

S06E09
Daenerys - Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.
Tyrion - You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King's Landing?
Daenerys - That is entirely different!
Tyrion - You're talking about destroying cities. It's not entirely different.

S07E02
Olenna - Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you. ... You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.

S08E04
Daenerys - Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.

S08E05
Tyrion - The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.
Daenerys - Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.

S08E06
Jon - You can forgive all of them, make them see they made a mistake. Make them understand. Please, Daeny.
Daenerys - We can't hide behind small mercies. The world we need won't be built by men loyal to the world we have.
Jon - The world we need is a world of mercy. It has to be.
Daenerys - And it will be. It's not easy to see something that's never been before. A good world.
Jon - How do you know? How do you know it'll be good?
Daenerys - Because I know what is good. And so do you.
Jon - I don't.
Daenerys - You do. You do. You've always known.
Jon - What about everyone else? All the other people who think they know what's good.
Daenerys - They don't get to choose.

Edited by snowhawk04

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Dany was always a favorite character of mine and I had hoped she would continue to embrace that side of her that protected innocents and valued high moral ideas.  However, she always had a darker side especially when she was angry and felt injustice had been done.  From the beginning, she had Jorah and later Barristan Selmy to ground her against her darker impulses. She wanted to be different than her father.  Fate seemed to turn against her though when she lost her closest advisors and her children (Viserion and Rhaegon), and was betrayed by Cersei, Varys, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon.  She was isolated and so consumed with grief and rage that she succumbed to her darker impulses. Combining that with her strong belief that she alone was the rightful heir and deserving of the IT created a toxic recipe that led to the tragedy of her downfall.  If the people of Westeros had rejoiced at her homecoming with open rebellion against Cersei then having the love of the people might have preserved that kinder and gentler side.  As it was she snapped and took what she wanted along with revenge for those who did not support her through fear, fire, and blood.

 

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2 hours ago, snowhawk04 said:

S08E04
Daenerys - Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.

S08E05
Tyrion - The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.
Daenerys - Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.

S08E06
Jon - You can forgive all of them, make them see they made a mistake. Make them understand. Please, Daeny.
Daenerys - We can't hide behind small mercies. The world we need won't be built by men loyal to the world we have.
Jon - The world we need is a world of mercy. It has to be.
Daenerys - And it will be. It's not easy to see something that's never been before. A good world.
Jon - How do you know? How do you know it'll be good?
Daenerys - Because I know what is good. And so do you.
Jon - I don't.
Daenerys - You do. You do. You've always known.
Jon - What about everyone else? All the other people who think they know what's good.
Daenerys - They don't get to choose.

Wait… you use quotes from Season 8 in a thread that questions the relevance of sudden changes in a character during Season 8

Makes little sense…

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4 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Wait… you use quotes from Season 8 in a thread that questions the relevance of sudden changes in a character during Season 8

Makes little sense…

There are people that still believe she hasn't turned after season 8.

Makes just as much sense as people who didn't see it coming.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Dany was always a favorite character of mine and I had hoped she would continue to embrace that side of her that protected innocents and valued high moral ideas.  However, she always had a darker side especially when she was angry and felt injustice had been done.  From the beginning, she had Jorah and later Barristan Selmy to ground her against her darker impulses.

Yes, she would react to injustice with violence. The showrunners could have used this to justify her final actions. Have her attack the people as a reaction to and directly after the citizens of KL kill her dragons, or Missandei, or defend the city themselves from her. Have a direct link here, so it's clear why she starts burning the city, and not Cersei. Instead they decided to go with something that made no sense whatsoever.

Also, I fundamentally disagree with a point made by you here, and also by the showrunners, that Dany's advisors used to "ground her against her darker impulses.". Most of the best and most benevolent decisions she has made, she made without anyone advising her. 

The only advisor to ever stop her from using violence was Tyrion, briefly in season 7. He convinced her to not attack KL as soon as she arrived in Westeros, but seeing as how easy it was for her to take down the Red Keep with what could have been 0 casualties in innocents, I would say that was the shittiest advice to ever happen to anyone.

Edited by Dokivi

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9 minutes ago, Dokivi said:

Yes, she would react to injustice with violence. The showrunners could have used this to justify her final actions. Have her attack the people as a reaction to and directly after the citizens of KL kill her dragons, or Missandei, or defend the city themselves from her. Have a direct link here, so it's clear why she starts burning the city, and not Cersei. Instead they decided to go with something that made no sense whatsoever.

Also, I fundamentally disagree with a point made by you here, and also by the showrunners, that Dany's advisors used to "ground her against her darker impulses.". Most of the best and most benevolent decisions she has made, she made without anyone advising her. 

The only advisor to ever stop her from using violence was Tyrion, briefly in season 7. He convinced her to not attack KL as soon as she arrived in Westeros, but seeing as how easy it was for her to take down the Red Keep with what could have been 0 casualties in innocents, I would say that was the shittiest advice to ever happen to anyone.

I think in all likelihood, hundreds of innocent people would have died if the Red Keep had been torched, but that would still have been a fraction of the number who did die, or who would have died if the city had been put under siege.  Your right it was terrible advice.

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1 hour ago, Dokivi said:

… Tyrion, briefly in season 7. He convinced her to not attack KL as soon as she arrived in Westeros, but seeing as how easy it was for her to take down the Red Keep with what could have been 0 casualties in innocents, I would say that was the shittiest advice to ever happen to anyone.

So true. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dokivi said:

Yes, she would react to injustice with violence. The showrunners could have used this to justify her final actions. Have her attack the people as a reaction to and directly after the citizens of KL kill her dragons, or Missandei, or defend the city themselves from her. Have a direct link here, so it's clear why she starts burning the city, and not Cersei. Instead they decided to go with something that made no sense whatsoever.

Also, I fundamentally disagree with a point made by you here, and also by the showrunners, that Dany's advisors used to "ground her against her darker impulses.". Most of the best and most benevolent decisions she has made, she made without anyone advising her. 

The only advisor to ever stop her from using violence was Tyrion, briefly in season 7. He convinced her to not attack KL as soon as she arrived in Westeros, but seeing as how easy it was for her to take down the Red Keep with what could have been 0 casualties in innocents, I would say that was the shittiest advice to ever happen to anyone.

You need to go back and rewatch.   Here is a clip of Barristan Selmy advising her and telling her.  It was advisors like him that kept a check on her dark impulses.  

Here is also a link to a clip of Jorah Mormont changing Daenerys mind when she was going to resort to her worst impulses. Watch around 1:20 for Jorah’s advice and then she changes her mind. SO you are wrong about Tyrion being the only one to ever stop her. You need to keep in mind that Dany was drawn to Daario because he complemented her violent and darker  side.  That is where she naturally wanted to go when angered. She was always battling the two sides of her personality and once all the right factors came in place(loss, grief, betrayal) she fully embraced her cruel and violence side and became a murderous tyrant slaughtering innocents and burning them just like her mad father.https://youtu.be/Hi4pEMoJ1kE

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Dokivi said:

The only advisor to ever stop her from using violence was Tyrion, briefly in season 7.

Since the clip didn’t appear in my previous post, I will repost it here. This is Jorah Mormont advising her not to be brutal. https://youtu.be/Hi4pEMoJ1kE EDIT: Nevermind

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, this has been in Dany since the beginning, at least since the middle of Season 1. What's made her an interesting character is that she's both all the things the quotations in the OP show and what @TheFirstofHerName and @snowhawk04 have shown. She's a liberator, she's a protector, she can show mercy; but she's a conqueror, she's ruthless, she's brutal, and her impulse has often been to burn people, ask questions later.  We can argue and quibble over the pacing of her completely embracing the darker side of her personality in Season 8 and buying into her own cult of personality, but it's strange to deny that she's never been like this before, and that the seeds for this haven't been planted for many seasons. 

And yes, evidence from season 8 is relevant, because in retrospect, much of season 8 is leading up to the moment when she decides to embrace fire and blood. To say the shift in episode 5 doesn't make sense and then to discount everything that's happened in the previous 5 episodes is about as strange as saying Tyrion's decision to kill his father in episode 10 of season 4 doesn't make sense while discounting everything that happened in that season. I'm not trying to say that Dany's character development in season 8 was as well handled as Tyrion's in season 4, mainly due to pacing, but it is most definitely there.

Edited by Caligula_K3

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

You need to go back and rewatch.   Here is a clip of Barristan Selmy advising her and telling her.  It was advisors like him that kept a check on her dark impulses.  

Here is also a link to a clip of Jorah Mormont changing Daenerys mind when she was going to resort to her worst impulses. Watch around 1:20 for Jorah’s advice and then she changes her mind. SO you are wrong about Tyrion being the only one to ever stop her. You need to keep in mind that Dany was drawn to Daario because he complemented her violent and darker  side.  That is where she naturally wanted to go when angered. She was always battling the two sides of her personality and once all the right factors came in place(loss, grief, betrayal) she fully embraced her cruel and violence side and became a murderous tyrant slaughtering innocents and burning them just like her mad father.https://youtu.be/Hi4pEMoJ1kE

 

The Jorah scene though, we all know how the Yunkai issue ended. With Dany burning the masters anyway, because they used her mercy against her and it almost cost her a city. So that was an ill advise also. Truth is I think, if we are to criticise the medieval, monarchy-based methods for ruling, you can never use 100% mercy or 100% violence. Both approaches are more than likely to result in your head's sad and painful departure from the rest of your body. Or a dagger in your back. A good ruler knows when to use which. When to hear advice and when not to. I'm not saying Dany would be the best Queen, but she did use both approaches successfully and more often than not did not need an advice to do the right thing. Her gut instinct to burn the masters and to attack KL as soon as she arrived were both violent, but were both right.

I would also like to point out that from the point of being merciless to your enemies to the point of being basically Hitler and burning innocents by the thousands, there is quite a leap.

The Barristan scene, thanks for bringing that up - I indeed forgot about it and his reasoning sounds very reminiscent of later D&D justifications for Mad Queen turn. 

Edited by Dokivi

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