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The character assassination of Daenerys

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12 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

 And no, this is not Narnia, the easy solution to the North preferring someone else is to kill them all. That's pretty much the idea. In Astapor she killed the whole ruling class, and the result was bad. In Westeros she tried to keep the ruling class, and ended up betrayed and dead. Should have sticked with the method that works.

Works for her maybe. Dany "winning" is only one POV in a series in which the bigger picture is the end of the Targaryen line. 

13 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

Well, it does, since she came to help after Jon bent the knee. Would she have come to defend them if Jon didn't swear fealty ? doubtful. 

Well that take certainly isnt doing her character any favors. She wants to be queen but needs territory and an ego boost first before she helps?

Doing the basic minimum to stop an apocalypse isn't impressive. It's like that Chris Rock joke: "You know the worst thing about niggas? Niggas always want credit for some shit they supposed to do. A nigga will brag about some shit a normal man just does. A nigga will say some shit like, 'I take care of my kids.' You're supposed to, you dumb motherfucker! What kind of ignorant shit is that?"

 

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Well yes works for her, that's the point. She has never cared so much about the effects for others of her successes. Even more show wise, in the book we do hear of the craziness that befell Astapor at least which may make her rethink some things. Destroying the Undying in Qarth could have harsh consequences that we don't know of as well.

Daenerys has always being adamant on being the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Those that do not reckognise her as such are treators. Any issue that they face is deserved. To be taken advantage of.

Plus what Apocalypse was that ? Without her going North it's unclear if they would have been able to cross the Wall. And even after crossing it they barely reach Winterfell, not that impressive.

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Daenerys destroyed no cities, prior to Kings Landing.

It depends on your definition of 'destruction'. Her taking over cities and abandoning them and leaving a power vacuum behind to be filled by the same scum as before lead to the slavers eventually bombing the hell out of Mereen. So Mereen was destroyed as a direct result of Dany's actions. Her complete lack of plan beyond 'free slaves' didn't make the slaves lives any better. We saw a woman on the street with her baby (the assumption here is she lacked shelter and food) and we learn that the old (and probably young) were abused in the slaves shelters to the point that we see an old slave wanting to be back with his owner. So Dany destroyed slavery but a lot of the slaves lives didn't improve due to her lack of plan.

35 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

And no, this is not Narnia, the easy solution to the North preferring someone else is to kill them all. That's pretty much the idea. In Astapor she killed the whole ruling class, and the result was bad. In Westeros she tried to keep the ruling class, and ended up betrayed and dead. Should have sticked with the method that works.

You know what the easy solution is here? LEARN DIPLOMACY. Hell learn about Westerosi history aside from your family's. Learn about the different cultures. Learn to work that in your favor. The first impulse of destroying everyone is so freaking Targ and exactly what caused their downfall. And you contradict yourself here. Stick with what works when you said one sentence before that her burning the ruling class didn't work. LoL.

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Posted (edited)

No I said it was bad, it did work, as long as she stayed there, then she didn't care. While what happened in Westeros... didn't work for her, at all !

 

It's been a pattern with Daenerys since the beginning of the story. Whenever she tries too hard to be a good ruler things go bad for her. When she only cares about herself she thrives.

Edited by Jaghen

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18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Doing the basic minimum to stop an apocalypse isn't impressive.

The thing that irks me the most about Dany's defenders is them ascribing so much altruism to Dany deciding to go to the North. The complete ignorance and denying that Dany (and her Team, including Jon) is the cause for the wall being breached in the first place. The NK and his army are in the North because of the dumbass wight hunt plan. Apparently it's altruistic now to clean up the freaking mess that you created and those stupid Northerners should be thankful she is there at all. Nevermind that Dany proclaims she is Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, aka 'Protector of the Realm'. If that's what you see yourself as, then it's your freaking job to help the North, aka 'protect the realm'. And last but not least, in theory the NK wouldn't have stopped in the North, he would venture south and his army would grow bigger and bigger and then there would be no stopping them. There would be no Westeros for Dany to rule over so if she wanted to rule Westeros it was in her own interest to stop the NK asap.

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8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Her taking over cities and abandoning them and leaving a power vacuum behind to be filled by the same scum as before lead to the slavers eventually bombing the hell out of Mereen.

She also left Meereen. Talk about a power vaccum waiting to happen. Realistically, slavery would return as soon as she left. The show runners did her a favor by not having Daario show up and give her the bad news. 

Speaking of, why dont more people criticize the way D&D wrapped up that storyline?

The way they did that was the most "Narnia" thing ever. Dany attacks with her dragons, next scene, Meereen is fine?

Please. We know GRRM is all about that messy reality. The author isn't going to show how "burn them all" solves all of her problems. He's not going to wrap up Meereen in a neat little bow like that. Maybe Dany fans don't criticize this aspect of her arc because they made her look better than she would in the books. 

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3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The thing that irks me the most about Dany's defenders is them ascribing so much altruism to Dany deciding to go to the North. The complete ignorance and denying that Dany (and her Team, including Jon) is the cause for the wall being breached in the first place. The NK and his army are in the North because of the dumbass wight hunt plan. Apparently it's altruistic now to clean up the freaking mess that you created and those stupid Northerners should be thankful she is there at all. Nevermind that Dany proclaims she is Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, aka 'Protector of the Realm'. If that's what you see yourself as, then it's your freaking job to help the North, aka 'protect the realm'. And last but not least, in theory the NK wouldn't have stopped in the North, he would venture south and his army would grow bigger and bigger and then there would be no stopping them. There would be no Westeros for Dany to rule over so if she wanted to rule Westeros it was in her own interest to stop the NK asap.

Her reasons were all but Altruistic. She came to defend them as the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms it was her duty. But she demanded the North's allegiance first, which is normal. It's not her duty to defend rebels and traitors.

In theory yeah he would have destroyed the whole world, brought the Long Night and all that fun stuff from Old Nan's bedtime stories. But we didn't see him being that impressive. A bit like Dragons - two of them being one-shot.

The North was always by far the coldest place in the 7K, so the easiest place for the NK to dominate. Defending a bit South where it starts off as warmer would have made sense, plus while the NK dealt with the North, she could deal with Cersei and reunify the Realm, thus increasing her odds.

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She also left Meereen. Talk about a power vaccum waiting to happen. Realistically, slavery would return as soon as she left. The show runners did her a favor by not having Daario show up and give her the bad news.

Of course Mereen and Slaver's Bay as a whole is back to it's old habits. She left Daario in charge, a guy who doesn't give a fuck about the people of Mereen or Slavers's Bay. She also took her entire armies with her. She seriously expects Daario to not only hold Mereen but the entire area with a couple of sellswords? I didn't need D&D to spell that out for me because unlike some in the audience, I can do simple math.

And it doesn't take a genius to know that slavery reigns supreme again in Slaver's Bay. You don't change an economy that has been in place for hundreds of years or more over night. Hell not even years. And Dany (or her advisors) didn't even bother to come up with a replacement in the first place. And even if she did, it would take years if not decades to build. Funny how Tyrion mentioned that only when they came to Westeros in S7, that her vision of Westeros (whatever that is I still don't know) would take longer than the rest Dany's life, hence making sure to have successors that will continue to build upon that vision. But no such consideration for Mereen. So it's easy to conclude that Slaver's Bay is back to it's old ways because in S7 the characters themselves said that fundamental change can take longer than one's life.

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4 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

Her reasons were all but Altruistic.

Thanks for agreeing with me. Nothing altruistic about her going North.

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37 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

It's been a pattern with Daenerys since the beginning of the story. Whenever she tries too hard to be a good ruler things go bad for her. When she only cares about herself she thrives.

She's thriving as a corpse. 

Karma for all those times she only cared about fire, throne, and dragons certainly caught up with her. 

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45 minutes ago, Mystical said:

It depends on your definition of 'destruction'. Her taking over cities and abandoning them and leaving a power vacuum behind to be filled by the same scum as before lead to the slavers eventually bombing the hell out of Mereen. So Mereen was destroyed as a direct result of Dany's actions. Her complete lack of plan beyond 'free slaves' didn't make the slaves lives any better. We saw a woman on the street with her baby (the assumption here is she lacked shelter and food) and we learn that the old (and probably young) were abused in the slaves shelters to the point that we see an old slave wanting to be back with his owner. So Dany destroyed slavery but a lot of the slaves lives didn't improve due to her lack of plan.

You know what the easy solution is here? LEARN DIPLOMACY. Hell learn about Westerosi history aside from your family's. Learn about the different cultures. Learn to work that in your favor. The first impulse of destroying everyone is so freaking Targ and exactly what caused their downfall. And you contradict yourself here. Stick with what works when you said one sentence before that her burning the ruling class didn't work. LoL.

As far as one can tell, Meereen was in good shape when she left it.  

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

As far as one can tell, Meereen was in good shape when she left it.  

She was fighting a shadow insurgency... and now suddenly all her enemies were neatly out in the open for her to kill. She only killed the baddies of course, no moral complexity here. Then she has a sellsword take over, and that somehow leaves Meereen in good shape.

This is D&D logic.

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22 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She was fighting a shadow insurgency... and now suddenly all her enemies were neatly out in the open for her to kill. She only killed the baddies of course, no moral complexity here. Then she has a sellsword take over, and that somehow leaves Meereen in good shape.

This is D&D logic.

I wouldn't disagree with your final sentence.

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12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She was fighting a shadow insurgency... and now suddenly all her enemies were neatly out in the open for her to kill. She only killed the baddies of course, no moral complexity here. Then she has a sellsword take over, and that somehow leaves Meereen in good shape.

This is D&D logic.

When she left, Meereen was well in hand, and there are no facts to say that it is now not well in hand. None. Sheer speculation that Daario would lose power. He commanded a large mercenary company and faced no organized opposition at all. The Sons of the Harpy showed themselves during the last battle and were largely slaughtered.

If you look at Daario's advice to Dany over the years, he wasn't clueless about politics and power. Ruthless, yes; clueless, no. There's no reason to assume he couldn't at least keep the peace.

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

The thing that irks me the most about Dany's defenders is them ascribing so much altruism to Dany deciding to go to the North. The complete ignorance and denying that Dany (and her Team, including Jon) is the cause for the wall being breached in the first place. The NK and his army are in the North because of the dumbass wight hunt plan. Apparently it's altruistic now to clean up the freaking mess that you created and those stupid Northerners should be thankful she is there at all. Nevermind that Dany proclaims she is Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, aka 'Protector of the Realm'. If that's what you see yourself as, then it's your freaking job to help the North, aka 'protect the realm'. And last but not least, in theory the NK wouldn't have stopped in the North, he would venture south and his army would grow bigger and bigger and then there would be no stopping them. There would be no Westeros for Dany to rule over so if she wanted to rule Westeros it was in her own interest to stop the NK asap.

She sees it in feudal terms.  It's her duty to defend her subjects in the North, and their duty to pledge fealty to her.

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48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She sees it in feudal terms.  It's her duty to defend her subjects in the North, and their duty to pledge fealty to her.

She did it out of order. She should try defending subjects first, then let them decide if they pledge fealty. Instead she shows up and expects everyone to call her queen before she's even done anything. They won't forget that she started off as a conqueror and thats what she was always going to do. 

1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

When she left, Meereen was well in hand, and there are no facts to say that it is now not well in hand. None. Sheer speculation that Daario would lose power. He commanded a large mercenary company and faced no organized opposition at all. The Sons of the Harpy showed themselves during the last battle and were largely slaughtered.

If you look at Daario's advice to Dany over the years, he wasn't clueless about politics and power. Ruthless, yes; clueless, no. There's no reason to assume he couldn't at least keep the peace.

You really think GRRM is going to wrap it up in a neat little bow like that? The author who set out to write a realistic political quagmire and who wants to show the limitations of nuclear power is just going to have the solution be: Nuke Them All and let the dumped ex-boyfriend take over?

 

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

<snip>

You really think GRRM is going to wrap it up in a neat little bow like that? The author who set out to write a realistic political quagmire and who wants to show the limitations of nuclear power is just going to have the solution be: Nuke Them All and let the dumped ex-boyfriend take over?

 

I was just responding to your implication that Meereen was left in an unfavorable state. There's no evidence for that.

And we aren't talking about the books here. IMO Martin's intentions had little or nothing to do with what happened in the last 3 years of the show, where we got a simplified version of Slaver's Bay.

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Posted (edited)

Really, it would have been nice to see something less than a total and complete victory in Meereen for Dany.  It could have been a great way to begin Dany’s descent into darkness if that’s where the story was going to take her.  Instead, what did we get? Dany returning from the wilderness to neatly and quickly clean up Tyrion’s mess on the back of Drogon and with the help of the Dothraki.  From what we can tell of the story the show told, Dany’s dragon show, combined with some deft executions of her slaver enemies, some Dothraki screamers to help secure the city, and leaving her lover in charge, she has effectively eliminated slavery from the Bay of Dragons (fka Slaver’s Bay) and a solid period of peace and stability has taken hold.  And, all of that happened with relatively few casualties.  A true people’s revolution (with the help of a few dragons). There is absolutely nothing in the show to suggest anything else happened.  Believable? Not really, but it’s the story the show told.

Just another one of many reasons that Dany’s turn in the final episodes of the show seemed so out of character.  Her victory in King’s Landing was even more swift and absolute, yet she couldn’t help but go on a killing spree of innocents after she had so clearly achieved her objective? Ok, if you say so, D&D.     

Edited by Lord Stackspear

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I was just responding to your implication that Meereen was left in an unfavorable state. There's no evidence for that.

And we aren't talking about the books here. IMO Martin's intentions had little or nothing to do with what happened in the last 3 years of the show, where we got a simplified version of Slaver's Bay.

I never said it was left in an unfavorable state. I said I think it was unrealistic given what we know about the themes of the story. 

Book talk is all over this thread and others. People are always making comparisons or speculating what will go down in the books. It seems like someone is always here to play forum mod whenever the writing for Dany gets criticized. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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59 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

<snip> She should try defending subjects first, then let them decide if they pledge fealty. <snip>

Why should she intervene in a battle if she's not involved with either side? Put differently, how did they get to be her "subjects" if she's not their queen?

Intervene in a war you're not involved in and you'll likely find both sides battling your forces.

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