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The character assassination of Daenerys

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She did it out of order. She should try defending subjects first, then let them decide if they pledge fealty. Instead she shows up and expects everyone to call her queen before she's even done anything. They won't forget that she started off as a conqueror and thats what she was always going to do. 

 

 

 When Dany talks to Jon on the boat, she tells him that she needed to see the White Walker threat for herself and then pledges to fight alongside him to defeat the Night King. Only then does Jon call her his queen and 'bend the knee'. She expects the North to acknowledge her as queen because their king has bent the knee to her. Their king took that step because she risked her life to save him and his companions and has agreed to fight alongside him.

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5 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Why should she intervene in a battle if she's not involved with either side? Put differently, how did they get to be her "subjects" if she's not their queen?

Because Jon asked her to be equal allies first, and because its the right thing to do? Their king went off to ask for help and he ended up trading their sovereignty to a really sketchy queen. This was bound to fail. Luckily for them Dany imploded due to her own faults.

55 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

. She expects the North to acknowledge her as queen because their king has bent the knee to her. Their king took that step because she risked her life to save him and his companions and has agreed to fight alongside him.

Gag. This sounds so melodramatic. Dany was just a naive idiot. She thinks they will accept her if their king does. She has no idea what Northern politics are like. They're just tolerating her because they cant piss off the lady with nukes. 

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Because Jon asked her to be equal allies first, and because its the right thing to do? Their king went off to ask for help and he ended up trading their sovereignty to a really sketchy queen. This was bound to fail. Luckily for them Dany imploded due to her own faults.

Gag. This sounds so melodramatic. Dany was just a naive idiot. She thinks they will accept her if their king does. She has no idea what Northern politics are like. They're just tolerating her because they cant piss off the lady with nukes. 

Not sure I'm the one being melodramatic. I don't think that Dany is that crazy for thinking that the King of the North might know something about northern politics. The show runners on the other hand .....

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1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

Not sure I'm the one being melodramatic. I don't think that Dany is that crazy for thinking that the King of the North might know something about northern politics. The show runners on the other hand .....

The problem is that the Northern lords are a bunch of selfish back-stabbing wankers.

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Posted (edited)

It's bad writing on many levels. In the books Martin will probably have Daenerys face Aegon, a civil War that will expose Daenerys lust for power, since she will have  no motive to claim the throne from another Targaeryen yet she will have the power to do so.

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

The problem is that the Northern lords are a bunch of selfish back-stabbing wankers.

Boltons aside, I guess we can add the Northern lords to the list of character assassinations.

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2 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

It's bad writing on many levels. In the books Martin will probably have Daenerys face Aegon, a civil War that will expose Daenerys lust for power, since she will have  no motive to claim the throne from another Targaeryen yet she will have the power to do so.

Except, in the books, Aegon will be a fake with no legitimate claim and Varys will be Dany's enemy and an outright villain who was prepared to see country-wide civil war to put his puppet king on the throne. Dany may look like the bad guy to Westerosi, but she will have the truer claim.

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2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Boltons aside, I guess we can add the Northern lords to the list of character assassinations.

To be fair, Karstarks betray Stannis for Bolton, Manderly betrays Bolton for Starks, Umbles play both sides... Looks pretty cannon !

 

2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Except, in the books, Aegon will be a fake with no legitimate claim and Varys will be Dany's enemy and an outright villain who was prepared to see country-wide civil war to put his puppet king on the throne. Dany may look like the bad guy to Westerosi, but she will have the truer claim.

Good thing is there will likely be no more evidence of Aegon's claim (or lack of) than there is for Jon. That's a problem of the hidden heir trope, being hidden... proof is hard to come by. Daenerys being a woman, her claim is shaky to say the least. The Seven Kingdoms, except for Dorne, are not so much into female rulers if it can be avoided.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Except, in the books, Aegon will be a fake with no legitimate claim and Varys will be Dany's enemy and an outright villain who was prepared to see country-wide civil war to put his puppet king on the throne. Dany may look like the bad guy to Westerosi, but she will have the truer claim.

Not if Aegon is a good ruler. Don;t forget that Daenerys will still delay for Westeros while Aegon is already there. Till Daenerys reaches Westeros fAegon will probably already have King's Landing.

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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The show adapted Northern politics pretty well. And I love Northern politics, and the Northern lords, who have very clear ideas of nationhood like Scotland (Maybe I'm just partial to "wankers" who refuse to bow to a conqueror). I even like the ones who give the Starks a hard time. I think Umber allying with Ramsay was a great scene. Jon and Sansa having to beggar them for support was also realistic and good. 

12 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

a civil War that will expose Daenerys lust for power, since she will have  no motive to claim the throne from another Targaeryen yet she will have the power to do so.

It would be interesting if Aegon offers her a Targaryen restoration and she rejects it but then she wants one with Jon while he rejects it. D'oh double screwed.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Not if Aegon is a good ruler. Don;t forget that Daenerys will still dealy for Westeros while Aegon is already there. Till Daenerys reached Westeros fAegon will probably alrady have King's Landing.

Exactly, this is so funny to me, he would actually give her everything she wants in a ruler, he was even raised as a Targaryen, with those values *incest cough.* She could have it all, except for perhaps...he's not able to ride a dragon? Boo fucking hoo then. LoL

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Exactly, this is so funny to me, he would actually give her everything she wants in a ruler, he was even raised as a Targaryen, with those values *incest cough.* She could have it all, except for perhaps...he's not able to ride a dragon? Boo fucking hoo then. LoL

"Then I shall have enjoyed the pleasure of your company, little griffin."

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Exactly, this is so funny to me, he would actually give her everything she wants in a ruler, he was even raised as a Targaryen, with those values *incest cough.* She could have it all, except for perhaps...he's not able to ride a dragon? Boo fucking hoo then. LoL

Why can't he ride a dragon? Would that be because he is not who he thinks he is, and does not have a better claim to the throne than Dany or any claim at all? Removing Aegon from the show and making Jon's claim look unassailable took that nuance from Dany's story. Her two rival Targaryen claimants are both going to have claims that are suspect (in different ways) compared to Dany's own.

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7 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Why can't he ride a dragon? Would that be because he is not who he thinks he is, and does not have a better claim to the throne than Dany or any claim at all? Removing Aegon from the show and making Jon's claim look unassailable took that nuance from Dany's story. Her two rival Targaryen claimants are both going to have claims that are suspect (in different ways) compared to Dany's own.

It remains to be seen, but I dont think he can because I think he's Illyrio's son. Narratively it makes sense to give Jon the dragon riding moments because he's a legitimate Targaryen and he's a main POV character with a secret parentage that ties into the main narrative. It also makes it more interesting if Aegon can offer Dany more because he wants to rule with her as Targaryens and can do it successfully, while Jon isnt about that life, has complicated Northern Independence behind him, and is still more legitimate. It would also be ironic if she was better off choosing Aegon, but she kills him, while she chooses Jon but he in turn kills her. 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The show adapted Northern politics pretty well. And I love Northern politics, and the Northern lords, who have very clear ideas of nationhood like Scotland (Maybe I'm just partial to "wankers" who refuse to bow to a conqueror). I even like the ones who give the Starks a hard time. I think Umber allying with Ramsay was a great scene. Jon and Sansa having to beggar them for support was also realistic and good. 

It would be interesting if Aegon offers her a Targaryen restoration and she rejects it but then she wants one with Jon while he rejects it. D'oh double screwed.

You really think that the North Forgets was better than:

'Winter is almost upon us boy. And Winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow...."

or

'When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built on the land they gave us. In return, we swore that we would always be their men. Stark men!'

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8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It remains to be seen, but I dont think he can because I think he's Illyrio's son. Narratively it makes sense to give Jon the dragon riding moments because he's a legitimate Targaryen and he's a main POV character with a secret parentage that ties into the main narrative. It also makes it more interesting if Aegon can offer Dany more because he wants to rule with her as Targaryens and can do it successfully, while Jon isnt about that life, has complicated Northern Independence behind him, and is still more legitimate. It would also be ironic if she was better off choosing Aegon, but she kills him, while she chooses Jon but he in turn kills her. 

There's been speculation that Aegon may be married to Arianne by the time Dany arrives in Westeros so that avenue of ruling together may already be off the table.

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1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

You really think that the North Forgets was better than:

'Winter is almost upon us boy. And Winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow...."

or

'When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built on the land they gave us. In return, we swore that we would always be their men. Stark men!'

I meant the inter-fighting in the North: they adapted that well enough.

No, I dont like that they spent more time on dragon flights than Northern independence.

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Just now, Wall Flower said:

There's been speculation that Aegon may be married to Arianne by the time Dany arrives in Westeros so that avenue of ruling together may already be off the table.

Yeah I disagree with that speculation because I think Arianne is going to be shown to be as smart as, or smarter than Dany, and not be fooled by Aegon. She has doubts about him and knows about all the Blackfyre failures, and she has no desire to be Queen of Westeros. She just found out she is heir to Dorne and wants to do right by it. Aegon's group also expects Arianne to join them; I think there is a twist coming on that. He won't get Dorne that easily since they have a history of making Targaryens look like fools. 

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah I disagree with that speculation because I think Arianne is going to be shown to be as smart as, or smarter than Dany, and not be fooled by Aegon. She has doubts about him and knows about all the Blackfyre failures, and she has no desire to be Queen of Westeros. She just found out she is heir to Dorne and wants to do right by it. Aegon's group also expects Arianne to join them; I think there is a twist coming on that. He won't get Dorne that easily since they have a history of making Targaryens look like fools. 

Well I hope that's right, as I would like Arianne to survive.

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Exactly, this is so funny to me, he would actually give her everything she wants in a ruler, he was even raised as a Targaryen, with those values *incest cough.* She could have it all, except for perhaps...he's not able to ride a dragon? Boo fucking hoo then. LoL

I don't see why Aegon, even if fake, would not be able to ride a dragon, Blackfyre did ride dragons as well, and all of Valyria's rulling class back in the day. It's not a Targ privilege.

I find it funny that everyone willingly believes Jon is Rhaegar's son but rejects Aegon. I used to as well, Jon is a hero, two hidden sons of Rhaegar are too much. After what transpired in the show though, I wonder a lot more now. But don't think it would be as obvious as not being able to ride dragons.

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