Heartofice Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 4 hours ago, DMC said: Totally agree, especially with the bolded. Rwanda, Cambodia, there's unfortunately ample examples that could easily be used. I also disagree with the notion that the Holocaust is ideal because otherwise you have to spend too much time explaining what happened (in Rwanda, etc.) In fact I think just the opposite - trusting the audience to understand the background without going into too much exposition is the type of movie I like. That's how Nolan makes his films (well, I suppose Inception is just one long exposition scene, but otherwise). And it'd be refreshing to not just rehash the Holocaust (of which there's been countless movies), but rather present another atrocity. Yeah I have to say I disagree with this point, not that I don't like movies that treat people like they are intelligent, but in that there are a number of connections people make mentally and sometimes storytellers use shortcuts to help tell a narrative. We all know about the Jewish Holocaust, there is plenty of information out there about camps and worse. So it makes telling Magnetos background a lot easier. Xmen movies didn't need to go into detail about his time in the camp because history lessons had done so much of the work telling that story already. How many people know the first thing about Rwanda? You put a characters backstory as being from Rwanda then you are going to have to spend much longer explaining exactly why it was so bad there. Xmen didn't really need to do that and so we could move onto the more relevant story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Heartofice said: You put a characters backstory as being from Rwanda then you are going to have to spend much longer explaining exactly why it was so bad there. Xmen didn't really need to do that and so we could move onto the more relevant story. X-Men spent the first three minutes showing Magneto in Auschwitz; that's plenty of time to show the basics of how bad Rwanda was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, felice said: X-Men spent the first three minutes showing Magneto in Auschwitz; that's plenty of time to show the basics of how bad Rwanda was. There’s also a lot they didn’t show and a lot of subtext Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said: It really helps to justify fascist behavior on the left to have this imagined rise of nazi fascism all around y'all. Convenient. Oye. There's a lot to say about your..discussion, but it is indeed a huge thread derail. Take it to the politics thread if you want a response. 1 hour ago, Heartofice said: We all know about the Jewish Holocaust, there is plenty of information out there about camps and worse. So it makes telling Magnetos background a lot easier. True, but I'm saying giving a little bit of background on any of the other examples - then assuming viewers will be like "hey I'll look that up" - doesn't necessarily harm the narrative at all, and in some ways can make the story more interesting. That being said, I grew up with the TV cartoon, and yes, I prefer Magneto coming from the Holocaust. Just don't think it'd be too difficult if they wanted to change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, felice said: X-Men spent the first three minutes showing Magneto in Auschwitz; that's plenty of time to show the basics of how bad Rwanda was. Disagree. Film is very complex and 3 minutes is not very long at all to convey much more than visuals and a bit of connective dialogue. With Nazis, Auschwitz, the holocaust, you get to indulge in visual shorthand in ways that the audience isn't supposed to notice. Just by showing the stalhelm we get information about who is controlling this part of the world, what their ideology is, what they they do to people they don't like and why, the time period, and relation to external powers. From a helmet. What do Rwandan militias wear on their heads? It's not fair, or even really ideal. Because it would make perfect sense for the Magneto in twenty years to be played by Chiewetel Ejiofor, and he's a survivor of an African genocide. But you'd have to explain what it is and why it's happening. People know why the holocaust happened and what it was. Now in 20 years we'll all know that the holocaust was fake and the earth is flat, but that's a problem for you people because I'll have checked out by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 Yeah ok sorry I derailed the thread was a barely awake post. So uh, Dark Phoenix going to cost Fox(Disney) about 100 mil. Ouchies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 42 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: Yeah ok sorry I derailed the thread was a barely awake post. So uh, Dark Phoenix going to cost Fox(Disney) about 100 mil. Ouchies. Simple solution... don’t make bad movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rhom said: Simple solution... don’t make bad movies. And don't hire Simon Kinberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said: Disagree. Film is very complex and 3 minutes is not very long at all to convey much more than visuals and a bit of connective dialogue. It's plenty to show Magneto's family and neighbours being horribly slaughtered to the accompaniment of racist epithets, and maybe a clip from a news bulletin establishing the scale of the genocide. It would have to be more explicit rather than relying on implication, but the basic concept is simple enough. The specific sociopolitcal details of why it happened aren't especially relevant to Magneto's motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said: And don't hire Simon Kinberg. He's known as the Unhirable in the MCU. But still, credit where it's due - he wrote Days of Future Past, which I just watched on cable yesterday and still is one my favorite X-men movies, or even superhero movies. Was thinking yesterday that would have been a perfect ending to the Fox X-Men series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, DMC said: He's known as the Unhirable in the MCU. But still, credit where it's due - he wrote Days of Future Past, which I just watched on cable yesterday and still is one my favorite X-men movies, or even superhero movies. Was thinking yesterday that would have been a perfect ending to the Fox X-Men series. Would have been perfect. It even fixed X3. The movie wasn’t perfect, but it put a neat bow tie on the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Triskele said: These are easily the two best films in the franchise. X2 has aged poorly. Logan is by far the best, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 20 minutes ago, Triskele said: Sorry, I sort of think of that as bracketed as a side venture. Me too. But if we're comparing it to the X men franchise "proper," it's certainly up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 I watched X2 not long ago I thought it held up great. And yeah I’d say Kinbergs career looks kaput. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 6 hours ago, felice said: The specific sociopolitcal details of why it happened aren't especially relevant to Magneto's motivation. I think they are relevant. Magneto has at times been seen as wanting to show Mutants as the superior race and wanting them to live apart from humans, or even above them. Its a fantastic mirror to Nazi Germany and there is a lot of irony in his position of trying to protect Mutants this way. I don't think any other genocide could really do justice to the complexity of Magnetos motivations in the same way. Not that this is a genocide competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Rhom said: Would have been perfect. It even fixed X3. The movie wasn’t perfect, but it put a neat bow tie on the franchise. Vaughan has recently been quite vocal about this and said it was one of the reasons he left the franchise. He said DOFP had to be the finale as you can't step up from mixing the actors from both timelines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Heartofice said: I don't think any other genocide could really do justice to the complexity of Magnetos motivations in the same way. Not that this is a genocide competition. I'm not sure why you don't think other genocides can't depict that irony of Magneto becoming a supremacist just as he was victimized when young. I agree that that irony is integral to his character, but every genocide is inherently about supremacy, so it's always going to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 Just now, DMC said: I'm not sure why you don't think other genocides can't depict that irony of Magneto becoming a supremacist just as he was victimized when young. I agree that that irony is integral to his character, but every genocide is inherently about supremacy, so it's always going to be there. I'm not saying they can't, but there is so much already understood background knowledge of the holocaust and actually its circumstances are so easily comparable to the way mutants are treated in the comics that I really don't see the logic changing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 It's useful shorthand but the problem is really becoming his age. If there has to be time travel or enhanced longevity it gets the character off to a shaky start. Although i guess they can always go the cap america route where magneto is "frozen" and always wakes up in the present.Maybe via him misusing his EM power in a way that freezes him in a time bubble. People would maybe accuse them of being rip offs but having other characters from other genocides turn up would be welcome. I'm interested in how such a super powered person would respond - would we get a counter genocide? I'm trying to remember if there was ever a story explaining how he abandoned his Jewish heritage for mutantkind? I guess a story where he is betrayed by his human heritage over his mutant heritage must have occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 I’d say the simple answer is to just stop using Magneto for everything. He’s an interesting villain for sure but he’s been worn out IMO. There are a ton of other villains to choose from and do properly in the X-verse and I’d rather they do that then try and reboot the same old story but with a modern twist. I have no problem with updates, I mean moving Punisher from Vietnam to Afghanistan made sense, but I don’t see much reason to do this. Lets have a Mr Sinister or let’s do Apocalypse properly , or the Brood or the Marauders instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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