Who got the most screwed over

[teej6]

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM says Littlefinger is the character who is the most different from book to TV show. Littlefinger! LOL 

Martin gave that interview in 2013, so say around S3. Then, D&D were at least somewhat faithful to the books’ storylines and characters. It’s after S4 that they went completely off the reservation and deluded themselves into believing that they were better at telling the story than than the author himself. I wonder what Martin will say now about the many characters that were butchered by those hacks.

[Mystical]

13 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Martin gave that interview in 2013, so say around S3. Then, D&D were at least somewhat faithful to the books’ storylines and characters. It’s after S4 that they went completely off the reservation and deluded themselves into believing that they were better at telling the story than than the author himself. I wonder what Martin will say now about the many characters that were butchered by those hacks.

Probably had something close to a stroke when LF announced his motivation to sit on the Iron Throne in S6 (which I don't believe is AT ALL LF's goal in the books). But then GRRM had long stopped watching the show by that point so who knows. Not sure how much GRRM even knows about the later Seasons other than what people brought to him, like fans flooding his site after the 'Sansa as Jeyne Poole' fiasco.

[Kajjo]

On 8/8/2019 at 12:56 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I say that it all boils down to the three central characters of the entire story: Daenerys, Jon and Bran.

 

Yes, in hindsight we know these three are the main protagonists. And yes, show-Bran was boring, unimportant and his story not told well. Youquoted the correct sentences. Show-wise it does not make much sense that Bran suddenly turns from "never Lord of anything" to King. I sincerely hope this will make more sense in the books.

I like the show-Jon arc, though. It played out pretty well, even the anti-climactic end fits ti this tragic character. Only the revelation of his parentage was cut much too short, but that is more a problem for the Daenerys storyline.

Daenerys' story was really good in the show and I fully expected her to turn bad. It was just told way too rushed and short-cut. The parentage revelation should have caused much more trouble and should have played out in more detail and emotions. But everything she believed in, her right to the thrones, was snuffed out.

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, in hindsight we know these three are the main protagonists. And yes, show-Bran was boring, unimportant and his story not told well. Youquoted the correct sentences. Show-wise it does not make much sense that Bran suddenly turns from "never Lord of anything" to King. I sincerely hope this will make more sense in the books.

I like the show-Jon arc, though. It played out pretty well, even the anti-climactic end fits ti this tragic character. Only the revelation of his parentage was cut much too short, but that is more a problem for the Daenerys storyline.

Daenerys' story was really good in the show and I fully expected her to turn bad. It was just told way too rushed and short-cut. The parentage revelation should have caused much more trouble and should have played out in more detail and emotions. But everything she believed in, her right to the thrones, was snuffed out.

 

Coming up with a secret annulment and remarriage as the basis for Jon's claim to the Iron Throne, was stupid.  At best, that was a pretext for people to support Jon over Daenerys, not in any way an undisputed legal claim.  No way on Earth that Elia would have ever have consented to turn her children by Rhaegar into bastards, or Aerys to turn his grandchildren into bastards, which is the effect of an annulment.  Either Rhaegar simply disregarded his country's laws to marry Lyanna, or else he pretended they were married, in order to get her into his bed.  A marriage without witnesses is not worth the paper it's (not) written on. That's why medieval royal weddings were celebrated in front of hundreds of people, and you had bedding ceremonies.

There was another way they could have gone about it.  Make plain that Jon is the illegitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  But, Daenerys is widely despised because she's a woman, a foreign whore, and the Mad King's daughter.  Then have Varys and Sansa point out that if Rhaegar had returned victorious from the Trident, he'd have legitimised Jon, placing him ahead of Daenerys in the line of succession, so why should Jon be disqualified because of a technicality?

And, so whether Jon or Daenerys want it, a second Dance of the Dragons becomes inevitable.

 

[BlackLightning]

On 8/16/2019 at 2:14 PM, SeanF said:

 Coming up with a secret annulment and remarriage as the basis for Jon's claim to the Iron Throne, was stupid.  At best, that was a pretext for people to support Jon over Daenerys, not in any way an undisputed legal claim.  No way on Earth that Elia would have ever have consented to turn her children by Rhaegar into bastards, or Aerys to turn his grandchildren into bastards, which is the effect of an annulment.  Either Rhaegar simply disregarded his country's laws to marry Lyanna, or else he pretended they were married, in order to get her into his bed.  A marriage without witnesses is not worth the paper it's (not) written on. That's why medieval royal weddings were celebrated in front of hundreds of people, and you had bedding ceremonies.

There was another way they could have gone about it.  Make plain that Jon is the illegitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  But, Daenerys is widely despised because she's a woman, a foreign whore, and the Mad King's daughter.  Then have Varys and Sansa point out that if Rhaegar had returned victorious from the Trident, he'd have legitimised Jon, placing him ahead of Daenerys in the line of succession, so why should Jon be disqualified because of a technicality?

And, so whether Jon or Daenerys want it, a second Dance of the Dragons becomes inevitable.

 

See the problem there is that Aerys was insane and regularly did injurious things to himself and those closest to him for painfully illogical reasons.

So yes, I can see Aerys disinheriting Rhaegar and/or his grandchildren Rhaenys and Aegon. Why not? It's already been established that Aerys had some super-paranoid, racist feelings about the Dornish AND he was holding his daughter-in-law and his grandchildren hostage. Why was he holding them hostage? Because he wanted to force House Martell and Dorne to fight for him even though they were still clear allies of the Iron Throne. Hatred or disgust towards the Mad King doesn't mean that you automatically endorse Robert Baratheon's movement to undo centuries of precedent and decorum. It's also important to mention that neither Rhaella, Elia, Rhaegar nor the Dornishmen could do a damn thing about the hostage situation.

If Aerys removed Aegon and Rhaenys from the equation, it'd be yet another batshit moment from King Aerys' batshit reign. Completely in-character.

Frankly, I'm of the thought that Rhaegar was a polygamist like Aegon and Maegor. He had arrangement with a powerful septon and was able to get himself two wives with Lyanna as the second secret wife. For all we know, Elia may have known and even approved.

And I feel like Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage (or whatever it was) was held in Starfall. Which explains why House Dayne was so intimately involved with Ned Stark and the Tower of Joy nonsense. Hell, it wouldn't be that surprising if we were to find out that the Tower of Joy is on the lands of House Dayne.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

See the problem there is that Aerys was insane and regularly did injurious things to himself and those closest to him for painfully illogical reasons.

So yes, I can see Aerys disinheriting Rhaegar and/or his grandchildren Rhaenys and Aegon. Why not? It's already been established that Aerys had some super-paranoid, racist feelings about the Dornish AND he was holding his daughter-in-law and his grandchildren hostage. Why was he holding them hostage? Because he wanted to force House Martell and Dorne to fight for him even though they were still clear allies of the Iron Throne. Hatred or disgust towards the Mad King doesn't mean that you automatically endorse Robert Baratheon's movement to undo centuries of precedent and decorum. It's also important to mention that neither Rhaella, Elia, Rhaegar nor the Dornishmen could do a damn thing about the hostage situation.

If Aerys removed Aegon and Rhaenys from the equation, it'd be yet another batshit moment from King Aerys' batshit reign. Completely in-character.

Frankly, I'm of the thought that Rhaegar was a polygamist like Aegon and Maegor. He had arrangement with a powerful septon and was able to get himself two wives with Lyanna as the second secret wife. For all we know, Elia may have known and even approved.

And I feel like Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage (or whatever it was) was held in Starfall. Which explains why House Dayne was so intimately involved with Ned Stark and the Tower of Joy nonsense. Hell, it wouldn't be that surprising if we were to find out that the Tower of Joy is on the lands of House Dayne.

If he didn’t like the Dornish why did Aerys have his son marry one of them? 

[BlackLightning]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

If he didn’t like the Dornish why did Aerys have his son marry one of them? 

1. Spite. He wanted to insult Tywin and maybe even Cersei too (who apparently was involved at this point because Jaime joined the Kingsguard soon after). After all...in between a princess and a Lord Paramount's daughter, a princess is the better match on paper.
2. Desperation. He couldn't find any other willing, eligible young women in Westeros or the Free Cities. And he absolutely wasn't going to entertain any women from Slaver's Bay, the Summer Islands, Qarth or the Dothraki Sea.
3. Possibly Varys talked him into it.

In any case, there is a lot more about Aerys II, Rhaegar and Rhaella that we don't know yet. Notice how Fire and Blood, Vol. 2 is supposed to show us how Dorne came to join the realm, what happened to the dragons and what happened at Summerhall? Notice how it's likely not going to come out until after The Winds of Winter?

I imagine Fire and Blood, Vol. 3 is going to be very detailed about Jaehaerys II, Aerys II and their progeny: Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Jon, Aegon and Rhaenys. And that won't come out until after A Dream of Spring.

[DisneyDoc2425]

3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

In any case, there is a lot more about Aerys II, Rhaegar and Rhaella that we don't know yet. Notice how Fire and Blood, Vol. 2 is supposed to show us how Dorne came to join the realm, what happened to the dragons and what happened at Summerhall? Notice how it's likely not going to come out until after The Winds of Winter?

 

The answers to most all these questions can be found in The World of Ice and Fire. For example most all the dragons died during the Dance of Dragons war in 130AC. At the end of the war only 4 dragons survived (Silverwing, Morning, Sheepstealer, and Cannibal). By 153AC, during the reign of Aegon III, all the dragons had died.  Contrary to what was said in the TV show the demise of the dragons had nothing to do with inbreeding and chaining them up (so they became stunted in size).

[BlackLightning]

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

The answers to most all these questions can be found in The World of Ice and Fire. For example most all the dragons died during the Dance of Dragons war in 130AC. At the end of the war only 4 dragons survived (Silverwing, Morning, Sheepstealer, and Cannibal). By 153AC, during the reign of Aegon III, all the dragons had died.  Contrary to what was said in the TV show the demise of the dragons had nothing to do with inbreeding and chaining them up (so they became stunted in size).

That's the problem. At the start of Aegon III's reign, there were 4 dragons. He became king in 130AC and became a legal adult in 136AC. Which means that less than 20 years later, while he was still alive, all 4 of those dragons died and no more new dragons were born.

That doesn't strike you as odd? Because dragons have very, very long lives and they never ever stop growing. And all of those dragons except for the Cannibal are relatively young. Particularly Morning and Sheepstealer...

Something happened to the dragons that has yet to be revealed. Especially if you remember what Maester Marwyn told Sam at the end of A Feast for Crows. Apparently, there is an anti-magic, anti-dragon pro-science contingent/conspiracy at the Citadel; Marwyn believes them so potent and daring that they would kill off the Targaryen dragons and live to tell the tale.

Fire and Blood, Volume 2 is going to have to cover this.

[DisneyDoc2425]

3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That's the problem. At the start of Aegon III's reign, there were 4 dragons. He became king in 130AC and became a legal adult in 136AC. Which means that less than 20 years later, while he was still alive, all 4 of those dragons died and no more new dragons were born.

That doesn't strike you as odd? Because dragons have very, very long lives and they never ever stop growing. And all of those dragons except for the Cannibal are relatively young. Particularly Morning and Sheepstealer...

Something happened to the dragons that has yet to be revealed. Especially if you remember what Maester Marwyn told Sam at the end of A Feast for Crows. Apparently, there is an anti-magic, anti-dragon pro-science contingent/conspiracy at the Citadel; Marwyn believes them so potent and daring that they would kill off the Targaryen dragons and live to tell the tale.

Fire and Blood, Volume 2 is going to have to cover this.

It is true that we do not know yet of the exact cause of death of each of the four remaining dragons. Only Morning, however, remained under Targaryen control and was last reported to be with Lady Rhaena Targaryen in Dragonstone around 136 AC. Aegon III feared dragons and did not want to have anything to do with them and wanted Morning out of Kings Landing where she had initially made a lair in the Dragonpit.  Sheepstealer vanished with Nettles (associate, maybe paramour, of Daemon Targaryen), and was last seen flying deep into the Moon of the Mountains in the Vale of Arryn. She may have become a fire witch and may have lived in a cave with her dragon. Cannibal was never really tamed or ridden and retired to his lair on the easternmost slopes of the Dragonmount on Dragonstone. Silverwing became wild and established a lair on a desolate isle in the middle of Red Lake in the Reach. So they all ended up being quite dispersed with the exact location of Sheepstealer being unknown.

Perhaps there will be a plan instigated by some Maesters in the Citadel to kill the remaining dragons, but as they were quite dispersed it would take some doing (not to mention luck). Hopefully we will see this more clearly delineated in Fire and Blood, Volume 2. I agree with you that it would be nice to see how they actually died. 

The fire at Summerhill was a direct result of Aegon V's obsession with trying to hatch dragon eggs. In 259 AC pyromancers attempted to hatch 7 dragon eggs, apparently using wildfire, which got out of control and killed many, including Aegon V. The Septon at the time was against this attempt so perhaps even this was sabotaged in order to minimize even the possibility that new dragons would be hatched. Hopefully this also will be covered in the second volume.

 

[Angel Eyes]

On 8/9/2019 at 6:06 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM says Littlefinger is the character who is the most different from book to TV show. Littlefinger! LOL 

I think it would have been rather interesting to follow up on Littlefinger’s comment to Sansa about her conviction that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. It could have put them in a better light that they did try to tell someone that they were eloping, but someone (Littlefinger) deliberately fudged the message to get Brandon Stark killed and get revenge on the injuries he received, with the lesson he learned being the power of words. It would have also harkened back to Season 1 with his little aside about the Starks having “Quick tempers, slow minds” when it was he who exploited Brandon’s impulsiveness to start a war.

[SeanF]

Tyrion got screwed over.

In the books, he's Richard III.  After Season 4 of the Show, he becomes Saint Tyrion the Perfect, despite being totally incompetent.

[Rose of Red Lake]

18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think it would have been rather interesting to follow up on Littlefinger’s comment to Sansa about her conviction that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. It could have put them in a better light that they did try to tell someone that they were eloping, but someone (Littlefinger) deliberately fudged the message to get Brandon Stark killed and get revenge on the injuries he received, with the lesson he learned being the power of words. It would have also harkened back to Season 1 with his little aside about the Starks having “Quick tempers, slow minds” when it was he who exploited Brandon’s impulsiveness to start a war.

Yup, they could have introduced their own answer to the secrets for this universe, and made it interesting. But that would involve having an imagination.

[jillc]

On 7/21/2019 at 2:11 PM, hewman said:

Aemon. He was inches away from touching the dragons, alive after more than a  hundred years, from meeting Daeny and from finding out that Jon is a Targaryen. But before any of that could happen, they decided “Neah, fuck ‘im! Let him die. Alone in the world”.

He was pretty screwed over and not only by the Ds, but by GRRM too

That was one of my dearest wishes for Aemon to meet Dany, I was so sad when it didn't happen. It would have been really interesting having a scene between them. The saddest thing is she never knew he was even alive after her brother's death she thought she was the only Targaryen still existing. I was hoping Sam would tell her.

[Raksha 2014]

On 8/9/2019 at 6:06 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM says Littlefinger is the character who is the most different from book to TV show. Littlefinger! LOL 

I had trouble with TV-Littlefinger from the moment, in Season 1, when he revealed his motivations to two of his sex workers (Ros and another woman) while they were 'practicing'.  No way would Littlefinger discuss any personal feelings with the hired help.  Equally silly and unbefitting of Book-Littlefinger:  TV-Littlefinger throwing his prize pawn away by marrying Sansa into the Bolton family - the North is far away and Littlefinger wields no influence there, and has no plan to extract Sansa if things don't go as he'd planned (whatever that was, it's hard to tell; since all Roose Bolton required from Sansa was a son or two before he or Ramsay could have her killed, thus giving Ramsay an heir of Stark blood and making him eligible for future matches with other lords' daughters.)

[Apoplexy]

On 1/21/2020 at 2:16 AM, Raksha 2014 said:

I had trouble with TV-Littlefinger from the moment, in Season 1, when he revealed his motivations to two of his sex workers (Ros and another woman) while they were 'practicing'.  No way would Littlefinger discuss any personal feelings with the hired help.  Equally silly and unbefitting of Book-Littlefinger:  TV-Littlefinger throwing his prize pawn away by marrying Sansa into the Bolton family - the North is far away and Littlefinger wields no influence there, and has no plan to extract Sansa if things don't go as he'd planned (whatever that was, it's hard to tell; since all Roose Bolton required from Sansa was a son or two before he or Ramsay could have her killed, thus giving Ramsay an heir of Stark blood and making him eligible for future matches with other lords' daughters.)

Show LF seemed like a caricature of a Batman villain. He supposedly orchestrated the events that led to the war of the five kings. But the only thing that the writers put any thought was the 'chaos is a ladder' speech. Beyond that, his actions were rather stupid.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

I wouldn't say Littlefinger is among the characters that got screwed over the most. He is certainly different from his book counterpart but that's not necessarily bad. Littlefinger from the show is less interesting than his book counterpart but he's not destroyed beyond repair like other characters, at least not until the grand scheme he dies to try and achieve is making two teenage girls have a cat fight with each other. 

Littlefinger is just different and less interesting but he's not in the same league as Varys who first has his entire storyline removed from the show, then has his grand moment stolen before finally getting depicted as an idiot who doesn't know how to do politics despite being the master of whispers. His ''for the people'' gimmick could have been a decent alternative if they hadn't decided him to be an inept flip flop  who thinks that someone being sad at dinner is enough reason to betray them. 

Tyrion is a weird case in that along with Jon and Danny he's the undisputed main character and he was cast in a mortally saintly light, but the writing also turned him into a complete dullard and I'm not sure if the writing ever fully realized this. 

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I wouldn't say Littlefinger is among the characters that got screwed over the most. He is certainly different from his book counterpart but that's not necessarily bad. Littlefinger from the show is less interesting than his book counterpart but he's not destroyed beyond repair like other characters, at least not until the grand scheme he dies to try and achieve is making two teenage girls have a cat fight with each other. 

Littlefinger is just different and less interesting but he's not in the same league as Varys who first has his entire storyline removed from the show, then has his grand moment stolen before finally getting depicted as an idiot who doesn't know how to do politics despite being the master of whispers. His ''for the people'' gimmick could have been a decent alternative if they hadn't decided him to be an inept flip flop  who thinks that someone being sad at dinner is enough reason to betray them. 

Tyrion is a weird case in that along with Jon and Danny he's the undisputed main character and he was cast in a mortally saintly light, but the writing also turned him into a complete dullard and I'm not sure if the writing ever fully realized this. 

Tyrion was written appallingly, precisely because D & D made him their self-insert.  To paraphrase Spike Lee, he was a "magical dwarf", perfectly perfect in every way.  After Season 4, he failed upwards consistently, and was so loved that sex slaves offered it to him for free.  

He was, objectively speaking, bungling, useless, sanctimonious, and insufferable.  Compared to his book counterpart, his was the character that was most assassinated, and D & D had no idea they were doing this.

[Angel Eyes]

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion was written appallingly, precisely because D & D made him their self-insert.  To paraphrase Spike Lee, he was a "magical dwarf", perfectly perfect in every way.  After Season 4, he failed upwards consistently, and was so loved that sex slaves offered it to him for free.  

He was, objectively speaking, bungling, useless, sanctimonious, and insufferable.  Compared to his book counterpart, his was the character that was most assassinated, and D & D had no idea they were doing this.

It doesn't help that GRRM said that Tyrion was his favorite.

 

On 1/21/2020 at 3:16 AM, Raksha 2014 said:

I had trouble with TV-Littlefinger from the moment, in Season 1, when he revealed his motivations to two of his sex workers (Ros and another woman) while they were 'practicing'.  No way would Littlefinger discuss any personal feelings with the hired help.  Equally silly and unbefitting of Book-Littlefinger:  TV-Littlefinger throwing his prize pawn away by marrying Sansa into the Bolton family - the North is far away and Littlefinger wields no influence there, and has no plan to extract Sansa if things don't go as he'd planned (whatever that was, it's hard to tell; since all Roose Bolton required from Sansa was a son or two before he or Ramsay could have her killed, thus giving Ramsay an heir of Stark blood and making him eligible for future matches with other lords' daughters.)

I think Littlefinger had this fantasy of coming in to rescue Sansa from her tormentor, and tried to create a situation for that to happen by sending her to a husband he knew would abuse her, tempting her to go along with his plan even though she had no means to see it through. I mean, Catelyn and Arya knew how to use knives, why can't Sansa?

 

A wasted opportunity: Since the show went the path of deciding that Rhaegar and Lyanna's tryst was consensual, it could have been a pretty good twist of Littlefinger being revealed as the mastermind behind Robert's Rebellion, that he twisted events as to cause Brandon Stark's death; sure he didn't foresee that the result was the overthrow of the Targaryen dynasty, but the war left a gullible Hand with one foot in King's Landing, a foot in the Vale, and a third in Riverrun by marriage. So Littlefinger capitalized on connections in the Vale and Riverrun (Lysa) and when events seemed ripe, he could put words in the right spot and create a situation where he could gain lots of money and move up the social rungs. Season 5 seemed to be building towards that judging by Littlefinger's conversation with Sansa in the crypts and let it completely go to waste.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It doesn't help that GRRM said that Tyrion was his favorite..

And, they missed the GRRM's point entirely.  "He's the villain, but we all love a good villain."

I've never known anyone watch Richard III and not to be rooting for the titular character.