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Plain, Simple Tailor

Who got the most screwed over

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On 7/13/2019 at 1:52 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany was supposed to bring her own damn food. That's what Sansa was asking about. They did show Dany burning the food that made her attack the Lannisters in the first place, so Dany showed up with an army and expected the starving, poor Northerners to use up all of their food on Dany's dragons + armies. I'm sure GRRM will cover this in more detail in the books because food is a big issue and anyone who treats it so flippantly like Dany did is going to fail. I could see that coming from a mile away. 

 

 

I think Daenerys was an idiot to burn all that food. Not only that, it’s bad for propaganda; she could have had the Dothraki attack the food convoy while she focused on the Lannister soldiers in the Spoils of War episode.

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On 7/13/2019 at 8:38 PM, Dreadscythe95 said:

But he isn't written in an interesting way. He is just there as "the gay person". Ask anyomne the first thing that will come to ther mind about Loras Tyrell in the series and see what they will tell you: the gay character with the clever sister and the badass grandmother.

So what?

That's not primarily an issue of homosexuality but of a rather small side role.

Ros is "the prostitute", Loras is the "the gay sword fighter" and Mace Tyrell the "dumb wannabee". What do you expect from small side characters? 

GoT's small side characters are depicted better than in most other series. Even better than several assisting main roles in other series. This is moaning on the highest level.

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On 7/12/2019 at 12:37 AM, SeanF said:

The Northern lords were portrayed as selfish, treacherous wankers, who expected protection from their enemies while giving little in return.

I’m a Stark fan, however in that abomination, I hated all the Starks (and the North) and actually pitied Dany (although I’m not partial to BookDany and have been part of the chorus who’s been saying she’d turn Darth Dany for a while now). I don’t think this was the reaction that D&D wanted of the audience but they are such shitty writers that they got me (and I suspect many others) to feel the opposite of what they intended. 

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On 7/15/2019 at 4:22 PM, Kajjo said:

So what?

That's not primarily an issue of homosexuality but of a rather small side role.

Ros is "the prostitute", Loras is the "the gay sword fighter" and Mace Tyrell the "dumb wannabee". What do you expect from small side characters? 

GoT's small side characters are depicted better than in most other series. Even better than several assisting main roles in other series. This is moaning on the highest level.

Except of course that Loras is clearly not just "the gay sword fighter" in the books. He is a character with depth and sincerity, and to deliberately remove that to save some time and effort in the writing room is a pretty unpleasant thing to do.

Now you can argue (I'm sure you will and your devotion to D&D is noted) that this was necessary for the process of adaption and we can discuss that elsewhere, but the title of this thread is "Who got most screwed over", and I think Loras absolutely did. Loras is a character in the book who genuinely loved Renly, rashly killed good men in anger when he found out about his death, joined the kingsguard out of respect to his dead lover and ultimately gets hideously burned trying to take dragonstone simply so that the Redwyne's fleet can help protect his homeland. He has flaws, but the fact that he is gay is immaterial to the strength of his character and convictions.

In the show he screws around with Olyvar (because he's gay), is creeped out by Sansa (because he's gay) and is ultimately tortured by the faith militant (because he's gay) and blown up by Cersei, with no heroics at all.

 

I think that's a pretty strong argument that he got screwed over by the writers.   

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I am going to say the Starks, especially Robb.

Robb marries a foreigner for no apparently discernible reason. The only thing it accomplishes is sticking a finger in the Frey's eye.  It certainly wasn't to save someone else's honor at cost to his own, which is a Stark-ish thing to do.

And then, to add insult to injury, his marriage is used against the Starks by the Northerners ("The North Forgets") in future seasons.  Ugh!

As for the other ones; Arya is even more bloodthirsty in the show that she is in the books; quite an accomplishment, though not a good one.

Sansa takes pleasure in the pain of others.  This from the person that was actually horrified at the death of Joffrey (!!), who had tormented her for months.

Ned and Jon, are, if anything,more stupid than they were in the books.  At least BookJon had the sense to demand hostages and valuables from the Wildlings crossing the Wall

Bran is even more invisible than he was in the books, at least up to season.

But Robb is really the one t.hat got shafted the worst.  Talisa, the butterfly that turned into a fire-breathing dragon that laid waste to entire storylines.

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8 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

and your devotion to D&D is noted)

I am NOT devoted to D&D at all. I clearly see the serious shortcomings of season 8 and somehow season 7, too. 

But I deny to go down the same black-and-white path so many haters, flamers and shit-stormers do. Not everything was bad and particularly not everything "makes no sense" or "is total rubbish". Quite a lot of issues are much too rushed, but with some good will it is possible to understand the story. Many movies require thinking along and that is not bad in itself. 

I am very disappointed by D&D and S8, because the greatest TV show ever should have had a much better ending. So, no devotion. But also no black-and-white bullshitting.

8 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

"Who got most screwed over", and I think Loras absolutely did

Well, Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn) does not even appear.

Stannis was changed drastically.

Bran had this great ending, but quite a boring S1-S7 besides a few good scenes.

Loras definitely IS a side-character, both in the books and in the show. For me it is OK to focus on some aspects of this character and since sexuality is important in GoT I find it fine that they portray homosexuality as well. 

Till S7 no one was moaning about Loras' fate in the show. Only now that the shitstorm has started, people find more and more they don't like. Thuis in unfair. This is whining about more of less the highest level of quality in TV shows. S1-S6 were great and we all loved it. No one complained about Loras. And now it's suddenly all bad?!

8 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Loras is a character in the book who genuinely loved Renly

He did so in the show, too.

8 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I think that's a pretty strong argument that he got screwed over by the writers.   

His role was somehow diminished, but he was a small side-character in books and show alike. I wouldn't call that "screw-over".

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Posted (edited)

Aemon. He was inches away from touching the dragons, alive after more than a  hundred years, from meeting Daeny and from finding out that Jon is a Targaryen. But before any of that could happen, they decided “Neah, fuck ‘im! Let him die. Alone in the world”.

He was pretty screwed over and not only by the Ds, but by GRRM too

Edited by hewman

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On 7/20/2019 at 8:52 PM, Kajjo said:

I am NOT devoted to D&D at all. I clearly see the serious shortcomings of season 8 and somehow season 7, too. 

But I deny to go down the same black-and-white path so many haters, flamers and shit-stormers do. Not everything was bad and particularly not everything "makes no sense" or "is total rubbish". Quite a lot of issues are much too rushed, but with some good will it is possible to understand the story. Many movies require thinking along and that is not bad in itself. 

I am very disappointed by D&D and S8, because the greatest TV show ever should have had a much better ending. So, no devotion. But also no black-and-white bullshitting.

Well, Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn) does not even appear.

Stannis was changed drastically.

Bran had this great ending, but quite a boring S1-S7 besides a few good scenes.

Loras definitely IS a side-character, both in the books and in the show. For me it is OK to focus on some aspects of this character and since sexuality is important in GoT I find it fine that they portray homosexuality as well. 

Till S7 no one was moaning about Loras' fate in the show. Only now that the shitstorm has started, people find more and more they don't like. Thuis in unfair. This is whining about more of less the highest level of quality in TV shows. S1-S6 were great and we all loved it. No one complained about Loras. And now it's suddenly all bad?!

He did so in the show, too.

His role was somehow diminished, but he was a small side-character in books and show alike. I wouldn't call that "screw-over".

1 - 4 were great.  Season 5 was more iffy (Hardhome and the Eastern storyline were fine, Dorne was dire, Sansa marrying Ramsay didn't make much sense).  But, I did think that Season 6 was a real step up in quality, despite a couple of odd choices.  Then, for reasons best known to themselves, the show runners thought they could finish a story in 13 episodes, which really needed about two dozen.  So, we get the teleporting armies, the wight hunt where Gendry sprints a hundred miles to the wall and Dany flies up there at the speed of concorde, and all the abrupt and surprising changes in character to fit the needs of the plot.

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On 7/15/2019 at 6:22 PM, Kajjo said:

So what?

That's not primarily an issue of homosexuality but of a rather small side role.

Ros is "the prostitute", Loras is the "the gay sword fighter" and Mace Tyrell the "dumb wannabee". What do you expect from small side characters? 

GoT's small side characters are depicted better than in most other series. Even better than several assisting main roles in other series. This is moaning on the highest level.

I expect them to be will written, like Martin did. Ros was actually a good character. She was the girl that wanted to escape from her small life and become rich but she couldn't handle the corruption, the violence and the game.

 

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44 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I expect them to be will written, like Martin did. Ros was actually a good character. She was the girl that wanted to escape from her small life and become rich but she couldn't handle the corruption, the violence and the game.

 

Not unlike Sansa in the earlier seasons.

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14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Not unlike Sansa in the earlier seasons.

Ros played the game and had ambitions. Sansa begins as an innocent little girl that believes to princes with white horses.

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On 7/22/2019 at 3:52 PM, SeanF said:

1 - 4 were great.  Season 5 was more iffy (Hardhome and the Eastern storyline were fine, Dorne was dire, Sansa marrying Ramsay didn't make much sense).  But, I did think that Season 6 was a real step up in quality, despite a couple of odd choices.

For me 1-4 wer almost perfect and 5-6 still great.

On 7/22/2019 at 3:52 PM, SeanF said:

Then, for reasons best known to themselves, the show runners thought they could finish a story in 13 episodes, which really needed about two dozen.

I agree with you. Much too rushed and a lot of inconsistencies due to that.

On 7/22/2019 at 3:52 PM, SeanF said:

we get the teleporting armies, the wight hunt where Gendry sprints a hundred miles to the wall and Dany flies up there at the speed of concorde

Yes, these aspects of S7 were really annoying and dumb.

On 7/22/2019 at 3:52 PM, SeanF said:

and all the abrupt and surprising changes in character to fit the needs of the plot.

Too rushed, yes. But I don't agree with the claimed character changes. If there had been a proper time scale, the changes would have been OK. So it's just an issue of stupid rushing the story along.

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On 7/23/2019 at 2:44 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Not unlike Sansa in the earlier seasons.

There is absolutely no overlap between naive, princess Sansa and clever prostitute Ros. None at all.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

There is absolutely no overlap between naive, princess Sansa and clever prostitute Ros. None at all.

Actually there is. Both are red-haired Northern women who left for King’s Landing for similar reasons; Sansa wanted to be Queen while Ros wanted to be a higher class prostitute. Both suffered under Joffrey and wound up under the thumb of Littlefinger. The difference is their social status and the fact that Littlefinger didn’t entirely view Sansa as disposable because she resembled Catelyn, while Ros was given to Joffrey for target practice.

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23 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Actually there is. Both are red-haired Northern women who left for King’s Landing for similar reasons; Sansa wanted to be Queen while Ros wanted to be a higher class prostitute. Both suffered under Joffrey and wound up under the thumb of Littlefinger. The difference is their social status and the fact that Littlefinger didn’t entirely view Sansa as disposable because she resembled Catelyn, while Ros was given to Joffrey for target practice.

Probably not just the resemblance to Catelyn but also  the key to the door for his ambitions being that she had potential of becoming the Lady of Winterfell and he could manipulate and marry her.

Ros was also at this point stronger and far more able for LF, She was never taken in by him the way Sansa was early on.. and so knowing she seen right through him, he knew he would never have full control over her and she would be a liability... gave her away for target practice.

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57 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Probably not just the resemblance to Catelyn but also  the key to the door for his ambitions being that she had potential of becoming the Lady of Winterfell and he could manipulate and marry her.

Ros was also at this point stronger and far more able for LF, She was never taken in by him the way Sansa was early on.. and so knowing she seen right through him, he knew he would never have full control over her and she would be a liability... gave her away for target practice.

Perhaps I spoke the wrong way; they’re foils.

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Tyrion was ruined as a character.

He went from being Richard III to being a magical dwarf, a saintly pacifist.  Every piece of advice he gave Dany was terrible, but D & D thought he was a a genius.

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smh @Kajjo

On 6/6/2019 at 10:55 PM, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

In comparison to the books, who did the show most heinously misinterpret? 

It’s so hard. I hate the removal of abuse and toxic masculinity from Sam’s backstory. And he can only be truly brave once he beats rapists off of Gilly and kills an Other. It’s just such shit. 

The same applies to Theon, who got majorly screwed over by the sausage breakfast scene and the fact that they took away all the physical elements of his torture aside from the obvious. Plus, adding Sansa to his arc diverts it from him. The whole point of Jeyne was emphasizing the loss of innocence of Winterfell and the idea of identity. 

Tyrion got screwed over too, and so did Peter Dinklage. Dinklage could have been so brilliant in the story of a dwarf whose internalized ableism and inferiority complex slowly turn him into the monster everyone thought that he was. But instead we get Tyrion the Goodest Mensch. 

I have to give a shout out to Varys, who essentially sat around doing nothing for 8 years. By removing Aegon, they removed the entire point of his character. And then there’s Littlefinger, who had a mix of horrible acting and terrible writing. 

This isn't even getting into what they did to all of the female characters. They just didn't get Catelyn or Sansa, and saw both of their feminine aspects as weaknesses that had to be fixed rather than being what made them strong. 

UUUUGGGHHH, there are so many. 

Also Barristan. Jesus, those guys are jerks. 

Oh god, Stannis, who they literally killed off because THEY STRAIGHT UP DIDN’T LIKE HIS CHARACTER. 

There are so many. 

Yeah.

Who didn't get screwed over.

I say that it all boils down to the three central characters of the entire story: Daenerys, Jon and Bran.

Daenerys and Bran suffer so much because the imbecile showrunners we had thought it was a good idea to castrate a fantasy show of its fantastical, more magical elements. Jon suffers so much because Jon is actually extremely intelligent and it is impossible to write characters smarter than you are.

Honestly, the R+L=J revelation did absolutely nothing for Jon. Why would such a big revelation only serve to tangentially drive Daenerys crazy? Why would she be unhappy with that? She logically has no reason to be unhappy or to want to force Jon to be silent. Why were they not married?

Bran is all the more egregious because those morons knew that Bran was the endgame king for how long? Four years at the least? Yet, they did nothing with him. Going from "I'm not Bran Stark anymore" to "I'll never be lord of anything" to "Why do you think I came here?"

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15 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

smh @Kajjo

Yeah.

Who didn't get screwed over.

I say that it all boils down to the three central characters of the entire story: Daenerys, Jon and Bran.

Daenerys and Bran suffer so much because the imbecile showrunners we had thought it was a good idea to castrate a fantasy show of its fantastical, more magical elements. Jon suffers so much because Jon is actually extremely intelligent and it is impossible to write characters smarter than you are.

Honestly, the R+L=J revelation did absolutely nothing for Jon. Why would such a big revelation only serve to tangentially drive Daenerys crazy? Why would she be unhappy with that? She logically has no reason to be unhappy or to want to force Jon to be silent. Why were they not married?

Bran is all the more egregious because those morons knew that Bran was the endgame king for how long? Four years at the least? Yet, they did nothing with him. Going from "I'm not Bran Stark anymore" to "I'll never be lord of anything" to "Why do you think I came here?"

The whole idea that Jon would have an undisputed claim to the IT, based upon a secret annulment and a secret marriage, mentioned in a diary entry, is an absurdity.  Royal and medieval marriages were celebrated before hundreds of witnesses, precisely to avoid having a random person turning up claiming to be the heir to the Throne.

And who believes that Elia or Aerys would ever consent to the children of her marriage to Rhaegar being made bastards by means of an annulment?

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