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Plain, Simple Tailor

Who got the most screwed over

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, SeanF said:

Apparently he needed a dragon. If Dany had never come, the dead would still be beyond the wall.

This may be only true for the show. In the books he should find another way to breach the wall since the dragons can’t (or won’t) fly north of the wall. I might be wrong, of course since I’m mildly senile, but Jaehaerys’ or Alysanne’s dragon refused to fly over the wall. Apparently the true north is a No Fly Zone.

Sure the Ds couldn’t care less if they “had to have their undead dragon, Goddamit!”

LE: oh, I forgot my point: Viserion may have been screwed over in the show as well. Or was this the better alternative to what would happen to him in the book?

Edited by hewman

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

was part and parcel of Daenery's character, one does of course, have to disregard an awful lot of evidence in the other direction

Well, I accept all these positive point and you should accept all the negative examples. And together they give evidence for a split personality. She wanted the good, but she had this dragon inside her. She wanted the good, but fire and blood is what her intuition tells her now and then.

Accept both sides. Easy as that. And then there came the moment where the dragon inside broke free. Happens.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

My point is, show only viewers had no reason to believe that Dany was capable of being that cruel.

And again you focus on "to be that cruel". Focus on "dragon inside" and "snapping". It is understandable if you want it. Don't play stubborn.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

When Emilia Clarke herself says "It came out of f**ing nowhere" that suggests there is a problem with characterisation.

This just shows what I think about actors for quite a long time: They are not that much into their roles and lack certain insights quite often. Some even admitted never to have read the books. Actors are not the most sophisticated people. They are good in acting. Emilia in particular is so funny, so charismatic, so beautiful, but obviously she is quite shallow, too, when she never understood the storyline and never really read the books.

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12 minutes ago, hewman said:

This may be only true for the show. In the books he should find another way to breach the wall since the dragons can’t (or won’t) fly north of the wall. I might be wrong, of course since I’m mildly senile, but Jaehaerys’ or Alysanne’s dragon refused to fly over the wall. Apparently the true north is a No Fly Zone.

Sure the Ds couldn’t care less if they “had to have their undead dragon, Goddamit!”

LE: oh, I forgot my point: Viserion may have been screwed over in the show as well. Or was this the better alternative to what would happen to him in the book?

I don't doubt that if it wasn't wight Viserion that broke the Wall, it would have been something else.

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Well, I accept all these positive point and you should accept all the negative examples. And together they give evidence for a split personality. She wanted the good, but she had this dragon inside her. She wanted the good, but fire and blood is what her intuition tells her now and then.

Accept both sides. Easy as that. And then there came the moment where the dragon inside broke free. Happens.

And again you focus on "to be that cruel". Focus on "dragon inside" and "snapping". It is understandable if you want it. Don't play stubborn.

This just shows what I think about actors for quite a long time: They are not that much into their roles and lack certain insights quite often. Some even admitted never to have read the books. Actors are not the most sophisticated people. They are good in acting. Emilia in particular is so funny, so charismatic, so beautiful, but obviously she is quite shallow, too, when she never understood the storyline and never really read the books.

I'd have little problem with the massacre of civilians  (from a narrative point of view)  if there was some cruel military justification for it. The problem is that there is no such justification.  It would have been straightforward to create such justification - eg a botched surrender which strikes Dany as a betrayal,  or an act of terrible collateral damage in the course of destroying Lannister forces.  But, I've watched the scene several times, and I just can't see any reason why she'd be flying up and down one street after another torching refugees, in preference to hitting the Red Keep.

For example, awful as Maegor the Cruel's actions were, they really did break the back of the Faith's rebellion against the Targaryens.  His awful behaviour made it possible for Jaehaerys to govern more gently.

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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, I've watched the scene several times, and I just can't see any reason why she'd be flying up and down

I liked how she played her conflicting emotions and the point of snapping. She reached what she wanted. The city surrendered. She got what she wanted -- but it was a hollow victory, without much meaning anymore in that minute. No lover, no advisors, no people that would love, hail or admire here. Feeling alone, empty, angry at everyone. Snapping. The dragon inside awakening. Fire and blood. Feeling everyone is an enemy.

I can follow that scene. It is not unbelievable. This is what snapping is about. The over-does it. 

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53 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

And again you focus on "to be that cruel". Focus on "dragon inside" and "snapping". It is understandable if you want it. Don't play stubborn.

 

29 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I liked how she played her conflicting emotions and the point of snapping. She reached what she wanted. The city surrendered. She got what she wanted -- but it was a hollow victory, without much meaning anymore in that minute. No lover, no advisors, no people that would love, hail or admire here. Feeling alone, empty, angry at everyone. Snapping. The dragon inside awakening. Fire and blood. Feeling everyone is an enemy.

I can follow that scene. It is not unbelievable. This is what snapping is about. The over-does it.

Snapping is understandable because anyone can snap. But that means ' it came out of nowhere ' as Emilia put it. Right till the battle against the NK, Dany was being completely rational. And if she snapped after that, as you say, it is was out of character for her. Done for the sake of thrills and twists, rather than being organic.

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11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Snapping is understandable because anyone can snap.

Indeed.

11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

But that means ' it came out of nowhere '

Do you really think that people snap "out of nowhere"? I don't. I builds up. It has reasons. Sometime it's the straw that broke the camel's back, but that means there already was a lot on the camels back. 

Like here. She lost Jorah, lost Missandei. Varys betrayed her, she does not trust Tyrion anymore, her lover Jon does nor reciprocate her affections, the Northern people clearly reject her, no hope that King's Landing will love her. Everything won, but no feeling of victory anyway. One straw too much.

And the build up to most of this was a bit compressed in season 8 but shown from S8E1 onwards. The emotional breakdown was told, not only foreshadowed.

However, there was also a lot of foreshadowing from S1E1 onwards, too. Illyrio and Viserys telling her Westeros is waiting for them, will hail them (or Viserys) -- clearly delusional from the very first episode. I just rewatch and remembered how strange that felt the first time, too. Two children escaped years ago, not one Westerosi shown to think about them, an unlikeable Viserys telling stupid, delusional stories. Conquering maybe, but being loved? Waited for? S1E1! I tell you. And repeated over and over. And yes, "Mhysa" calls are the contrast to that, they show what she wants, what she relishes in. And what is clearly not to be expected in Westeros.

What do you say?

 

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

When Emilia Clarke herself says "It came out of f**ing nowhere" that suggests there is a problem with characterisation.

I don't think Emilia Clarke is the right source of information on this matter. Since, you know, she is playing Daenerys Targaryen. She is obviously biased towards her own character.

Kit Harington said this;

"I think it's going to divide," Harington told Entertainment Weekly about fans' reactions to the finale. "But if you track [Daenerys'] story all the way back, she does some terrible things. She crucifies people. She burns people alive. This has been building. So, we have to say to the audience: 'You're in denial about this woman as well. You knew something was wrong. You're culpable, you cheered her on.'"

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, RYShh said:

'You're in denial about this woman as well. You knew something was wrong. You're culpable, you cheered her on.'"

Great quote. Thanks. He at least understood it.

GRRM is a good writer. He tricked us with her first enemies being evil. He disguised her viciousness, ruthlessness to a certain degree. But not too much to recognise. Very many people understood. 

Emilia is so charismatic, so beautiful, so women-power that people wanted to believe in it, against all signs of warning. She always had two sides and it was only a matter of time and absence of advisers that her inside-dragon would awake.

Edited by Kajjo

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20 minutes ago, RYShh said:

I don't think Emilia Clarke is the right source of information on this matter. Since, you know, she is playing Daenerys Targaryen. She is obviously biased towards her own character.

Kit Harington said this;

"I think it's going to divide," Harington told Entertainment Weekly about fans' reactions to the finale. "But if you track [Daenerys'] story all the way back, she does some terrible things. She crucifies people. She burns people alive. This has been building. So, we have to say to the audience: 'You're in denial about this woman as well. You knew something was wrong. You're culpable, you cheered her on.'"

 

Absolutely.  Daenerys does cruel and brutal things.  As any dynast in a medieval setting does, and as Jon, Sansa, and Arya have done. The point being, it's nothing out of the ordinary for this world, until from Season 7, Tyrion and Varys start judging her from the viewpoint of a human rights lawyer in modern Europe.

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Absolutely.  Daenerys does cruel and brutal things.  As any dynast in a medieval setting does, and as Jon, Sansa, and Arya have done. The point being, it's nothing out of the ordinary for this world, until from Season 7, Tyrion and Varys start judging her from the viewpoint of a human rights lawyer in modern Europe.

I doubt :dunno:

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What exactly do you doubt?

Sansa feeding Ramsey to his dogs, Arya feeding the Frey to his dad or Tyrion cooking that singer into a stew?

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, hewman said:

What exactly do you doubt?

Sansa feeding Ramsey to his dogs, Arya feeding the Frey to his dad or Tyrion cooking that singer into a stew?

Those slavers or other people she burns; they didn't murder her mother and her brother after inviting them as guests into their home, or they didn't cut her body and raped her. And that Tyrion thing is the book only.

 

Edited by RYShh

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21 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Those slavers or other people she burns didn't murder her mother and her brother after inviting them as guests into their home, or they didn't cut her body and raped her. And that Tyrion thing is the book only.

 

There's always a justification, as there was always a justification for crucifying people who crucified children (mostly).

As Tyrion would put it, the fandom cheered as bad people got what they deserved, at the hands of Jon, Sansa, and Arya.  All of them killed arseholes.  The fandom even cheered when Jon hanged a 12 year old boy, who'd seen his parents murdered and eaten, because he was an irritating little arsehole as well.  When they did it, it was badass.  And, initially, Dany was a badass too.

Until it suited the show runners to tell us that actually, she was a monster.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There's always a justification, as there was always a justification for crucifying people who crucified children (mostly).

As Tyrion would put it, the fandom cheered as bad people got what they deserved, at the hands of Jon, Sansa, and Arya.  All of them killed arseholes.  The fandom even cheered when Jon hanged a 12 year old boy, who'd seen his parents murdered and eaten, because he was an irritating little arsehole as well.  When they did it, it was badass.  And, initially, Dany was a badass too.

Until it suited the show runners to tell us that actually, she was a monster.

Those slavers were not Daenerys's sworn bannermen. She had no right to crucify and burn people alive just because they were following their family tradition in Essos. The comparison is absurd, the Freys, the Boltons were sworn bannermen of House Stark, or the sworn brothers of the NW who stabbed their Lord Commander in the heart, not only they betrayed them, they betrayed them in a cruel way (Red Wedding / cut and rape Sansa). People she burns, what did they do to Daenerys? I wouldn't even compare that witch who killed Daenerys's husband with the Freys or the Boltons, since she had a reason for that, she wasn't her sworn servant, let alone the other people she casually burns.

There is no comparison here.

 

Edited by RYShh

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38 minutes ago, RYShh said:

And that Tyrion thing is the book only.

True. Apologies!

They have murdered her brother’s children, her father...well whatever, she has no reason to love them.   

I’m exaggerating a bit ( well, a lot) but Daeny’s actions in the end were a bit like this moment she is carried on the freed slaves arms and the next she’s “wait a minute, they’ve taken the IT away from my family: Drakarys the hell out of these slaves!”

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5 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Those slavers were not Daenerys's sworn bannermen. She had no right to crucify and burn people alive just because they were following their family tradition in Essos. The comparison is absurd, the Freys, the Boltons were sworn bannermen of House Stark, or the sworn brothers of the NW who stabbed their Lord Commander in the heart, not only they betrayed them, they betrayed them in a cruel way. People she burns, what did they do to Daenerys? I wouldn't even compare that witch who killed Daenerys's husband with the Freys or the Boltons, since she had a reason for that, she wasn't her sworn servant, let alone the other people she casually burns.

There is no comparison here.

 

That's good to know.

Dany should have known her place, spending the rest of her life on her hands and knees being raped.

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Indeed.

Do you really think that people snap "out of nowhere"? I don't. I builds up. It has reasons. Sometime it's the straw that broke the camel's back, but that means there already was a lot on the camels back. 

Like here. She lost Jorah, lost Missandei. Varys betrayed her, she does not trust Tyrion anymore, her lover Jon does nor reciprocate her affections, the Northern people clearly reject her, no hope that King's Landing will love her. Everything won, but no feeling of victory anyway. One straw too much.

And the build up to most of this was a bit compressed in season 8 but shown from S8E1 onwards. The emotional breakdown was told, not only foreshadowed.

However, there was also a lot of foreshadowing from S1E1 onwards, too. Illyrio and Viserys telling her Westeros is waiting for them, will hail them (or Viserys) -- clearly delusional from the very first episode. I just rewatch and remembered how strange that felt the first time, too. Two children escaped years ago, not one Westerosi shown to think about them, an unlikeable Viserys telling stupid, delusional stories. Conquering maybe, but being loved? Waited for? S1E1! I tell you. And repeated over and over. And yes, "Mhysa" calls are the contrast to that, they show what she wants, what she relishes in. And what is clearly not to be expected in Westeros.

What do you say?

 

I disagree the emotional breakdown started from s8e1. Daenerys was still perfectly reasonable right till the war with the NK. Jon and dany were still a team then. The whole 'mad queen' twist was attempted in half a season. It understandably didn't resonate with a lot of viewers.

Whatever you cite as build up from season 1, I can cite just as many instances of (if not more) of Daenerys' humanity and level headedness. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That's good to know.

Dany should have known her place, spending the rest of her life on her hands and knees being raped.

Come to think of it, that Bronn chap is the only one in the entire non nihilistic show that dodged being maimed, raped or killed. 

Edited by hewman

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That's good to know.

Dany should have known her place, spending the rest of her life on her hands and knees being raped.

If she burned the Freys alive after the Freys kills her mother and brother when they were guests no one would complain, or the Boltons after they cut her body and rape her. That's the difference I guess.

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