Cold-hearted Robb

[Belizarie]

 

Quote

I won't free him, not even for Arya and Sansa.

 

[PrinceHenryris]

War winning Robb?

[the Other Wolf]

A commander of the Lannister army does not equal a couple girls, even if they are your little sisters.  Robb got this one right.

[John Suburbs]

Robb made the right call here. This is the kingslayer, the only thing in the world that Tywin Lannister values. The very future of House Lannister. He was far more valuable than two Stark girls, and Robb's bannermen would have revolted if this trade was made because it would show that Robb placed his own emotional needs above the strategic needs of the entire North. Depending on how the war unfolded, Jaime could have become the key to getting what they really want: their own kingdom.

 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

More like smart Robb. Jaime Lannister is way more valuable then two little girls. 

[Hugorfonics]

Sansas worth a thousand kingslayers. 

12 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

War winning Robb?

Did he win?

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robb made the right call here. This is the kingslayer, the only thing in the world that Tywin Lannister values. The very future of House Lannister. He was far more valuable than two Stark girls, and Robb's bannermen would have revolted if this trade was made because it would show that Robb placed his own emotional needs above the strategic needs of the entire North. Depending on how the war unfolded, Jaime could have become the key to getting what they really want: their own kingdom.

 

Tywin managed to defeat Robb without the assurance of Jaimes life. And Robbs bannermen revolted anyway.

 

 

 

"I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it," Robb said as they walked the gallery. "If I'd offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey's. I should have thought of that."

 

[The Sunland Lord]

Plot convenience, because it wasn't possible anyway, Arya being gone.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

As much as I wanted that trade to go down this is one thing Robb did get right. He could not trade the Kingslayer, Tywin's Golden child, for 2 girls that meant almost nothing in regards to politics or the war. 

It really doesn't matter that they revolted anyway - they would have revolted sooner.

And little good it would have done him to try to marry Sansa to the Tyrell's to get their army if he couldn't hold his own. 

Now if he could have brokered this deal with the Tyrell's in advance & told his bannermen that he was not trading Jaime for 2 girls but for the entire Tyrell army it would have been different. Unfortunately for him, he didn't think of that.

[Lady Meliora]

I agree with the majority of other posters.  No matter how much Robb loved his sisters, he could not risk giving back someone as crucial as Jaime Lannister for them.

[Br16]

2 hours ago, Lady Meliora said:

I agree with the majority of other posters.  No matter how much Robb loved his sisters, he could not risk giving back someone as crucial as Jaime Lannister for them.

Agree, If Robb did not let Theon go and simply returned to Winterfell with Jaime Lannister, Robb could probably even ask for Sansa back plus a ridiculous ransom and Tywin would pay up. 

[John Suburbs]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:55 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Sansas worth a thousand kingslayers. 

Did he win?

Tywin managed to defeat Robb without the assurance of Jaimes life. And Robbs bannermen revolted anyway.

 

 

 

"I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it," Robb said as they walked the gallery. "If I'd offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey's. I should have thought of that."

 

Tywin only won through sneakery and treachery leading to a surprise attack that eliminated the northern army all at once, not through a protracted campaign in which Jaime's value would have grown as they got closer to the end game. Ask yourself: would Tywin had given the green light to the Red Wedding if Jaime was still in a cell at Riverrun, not in safe hands and heading toward King's Landing?

Robb's assessment is wrong here. The Tyrells had already wed Margaery to Renly and were bound to make them the next king and queen. They had no pressing need to marry Sansa to Loras -- maybe after the fighting was done and it would be a way to bind the north to the realm once again under the terms that Renly proposed to Catelyn. Recall that under that deal, they would have gotten Tyrell swords without Sansa. After Renly died, of course, and the Tyrell's became Joffrey's, the Tyrells believed Cat was responsible for Renly's death, so there is no way in hell they would marry into the Starks at that point. It was all just wishful thinking on Robb's part.

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin only won through sneakery and treachery leading to a surprise attack that eliminated the northern army all at once, not through a protracted campaign in which Jaime's value would have grown as they got closer to the end game.

 Why would Jaimes value grow? Hes clearly not valuable enough to make Tywin or Joffrey stand down. 

As far as him being a valued general, I dont see it. Hes as rash as the best of them and his impatience is legendary, as we see with his pitiful command at WW. I say give him a command and itll rival Stafford, not Tywin

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Ask yourself: would Tywin had given the green light to the Red Wedding if Jaime was still in a cell at Riverrun, not in safe hands and heading toward King's Landing?

Yea, I think so. Tywin knew Jaimes life was in danger throughout the war. Would Tywin say no to Roose and Walder? I doubt it.

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robb's assessment is wrong here. The Tyrells had already wed Margaery to Renly and were bound to make them the next king and queen. They had no pressing need to marry Sansa to Loras -- maybe after the fighting was done and it would be a way to bind the north to the realm once again under the terms that Renly proposed to Catelyn. Recall that under that deal, they would have gotten Tyrell swords without Sansa. After Renly died, of course, and the Tyrell's became Joffrey's, the Tyrells believed Cat was responsible for Renly's death, so there is no way in hell they would marry into the Starks at that point. It was all just wishful thinking on Robb's part.

Did the Tyrells truly belive Cat killed Renly? I doubt it, thats crazy.

When Renly croaked KL was blessed with an outstanding spymaster, strategist and orator, they jumped upon Tyrell.

If Stark jumped instead things may have been drastically different.

But maybe Tyrells not the right fit, thats ok. Westeros has plenty of houses.

Quote

Lord Tywin's look was scornful. "Send her to Riverrun and her mother will match her with a Blackwood or a Mallister to shore up her son's alliances along the Trident. Send her north, and she will be wed to some Manderly or Umber before the moon turns. Yet she is no less dangerous here at court, as this business with the Tyrells should prove. She must marry a Lannister, and soon."

Sansas hand is the most valuable in Westeros. To let it gather dust in the Red Keep, or gods forbid, link it to Lannister is a gross oversight. 

It also is cruel, his little sister is in pain and needs her king. Neds little girl is a good enough montra for Stannis' men, Robbs men should have echoed the call

 

[nyser1]

More like gigantic heart Robb except for the Freys. It appears absolutely nobody outside of house Frey likes house Frey. In fact, most Freys seem to hate each other.

[Arthur Peres]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why would Jaimes value grow? Hes clearly not valuable enough to make Tywin or Joffrey stand down. 

 As far as him being a valued general, I dont see it. Hes as rash as the best of them and his impatience is legendary, as we see with his pitiful command at WW. I say give him a command and itll rival Stafford, not Tywin

Agree

acording to Tyrion

"That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime’s good as dead, so I’m all you have left"

Robb should have traded Jaime for Sansa and something else.

[A Ghost of Someone]

On 6/7/2019 at 1:13 AM, Belizarie said:

 

 

He saw the big picture, before he was love potioned by Sybella Westerling.

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

Hind sight being what it is Robb probably should have taken the kingslayers head... Catelyn's handling of the situation pretty much was a stepping stone to the red wedding. Its not like the repercussions could have been any worse then that. Except maybe for sansa.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Why would Jaimes value grow? Hes clearly not valuable enough to make Tywin or Joffrey stand down. 

As far as him being a valued general, I dont see it. Hes as rash as the best of them and his impatience is legendary, as we see with his pitiful command at WW. I say give him a command and itll rival Stafford, not Tywin

Yea, I think so. Tywin knew Jaimes life was in danger throughout the war. Would Tywin say no to Roose and Walder? I doubt it.

Did the Tyrells truly belive Cat killed Renly? I doubt it, thats crazy.

When Renly croaked KL was blessed with an outstanding spymaster, strategist and orator, they jumped upon Tyrell.

If Stark jumped instead things may have been drastically different.

But maybe Tyrells not the right fit, thats ok. Westeros has plenty of houses.

Sansas hand is the most valuable in Westeros. To let it gather dust in the Red Keep, or gods forbid, link it to Lannister is a gross oversight. 

It also is cruel, his little sister is in pain and needs her king. Neds little girl is a good enough montra for Stannis' men, Robbs men should have echoed the call

 

Depending on how the war unfolds, Jaime could mean the difference between a fight to the death or a negotiated settlement. I didn't say he was valued as a general. His value lies in the fact that he is Tywin's only suitable heir to Casterly Rock.

You think Tywin values the needs of Roose and Walder over the life of his favored son? I think you need to reread Tywin and see all the instances in which his actions were dictated solely by what they meant for Jaime.

Crazier than a killer shadow wisping into Renly's tent? From the Tyrell's perspective, the facts are these: Catelyn, Brienne and Renly are alone in the tent. Suddenly, Renly is dead, stabbed from behind, and Cat and Brienne have fled. How could they not think they were responsible? Also note that when Loras meets up again with Brienne in Kings Landing, he still thinks she did it and is ready to killer her. So yes, throughout this entire phase of the war, the Tyrells have no reason to suspect anyone but Brienne and Cat. Obviously the whole thing -- from Brienne's appearance at camp to her maneuvering onto the Rainbow Guard to the murder -- was a conspiracy cooked up between Stannis, Robb Stark -- aka, the son of the lord who tried to put Stannis on the throne -- and Selwyn Tarth -- aka, Stannis' bannerman. There is absolutely no way Robb could have made a peace offering to the Tyrells at that point.

Sure, Sansa could be married off to another house -- in time and under the right circumstances. And if it is any house other than Dorne or the Vale, it will be inconsequential to the balance of power in theater. Meanwhile, Robb has given up Jaime, which would be ceding leverage to Tywin Lannister in the war that is here and now.

Sansa's hand is not more valuable than Margaery's, or Arriane Martell's or Cersei's, which is not to say it has no value at all but that she is not the only highborn maid who can bring swords to battle. And her hand is utterly worthless, to Robb at least, if Tywin wins the war, which is what would happen if Robb trades Jaime for Sansa and the northern lords revolt.

The northern lords came to the defense of "Ned's little girl", but they did not have to give up their most valuable political possession to do so.

 

[Hugorfonics]

30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Depending on how the war unfolds, Jaime could mean the difference between a fight to the death or a negotiated settlement.

Robb says never. I dont see any scenario where hed free the kingslayer solely to appease his fathers killers.

30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I didn't say he was valued as a general. His value lies in the fact that he is Tywin's only suitable heir to Casterly Rock.

My bad, I assumed thats what you meant.

But hes not... Like in the entire world hes one of the seven least suitable heirs. Tyrion, Lancel, Devan, Cleos Frey. Hell even Cersei or Tommen have a greater claim then Jaime

30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You think Tywin values the needs of Roose and Walder over the life of his favored son? I think you need to reread Tywin and see all the instances in which his actions were dictated solely by what they meant for Jaime.

Citation please? Or just tell me the scene and ill look em up. 

I didnt mean, like, the happiness of Frey is Tywins concern, just the offer was too good. Roose and Walder volunteered to end the war, all it costs is Winterfell and Riverrun. 

32 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Crazier than a killer shadow wisping into Renly's tent? From the Tyrell's perspective, the facts are these: Catelyn, Brienne and Renly are alone in the tent. Suddenly, Renly is dead, stabbed from behind, and Cat and Brienne have fled. How could they not think they were responsible? Also note that when Loras meets up again with Brienne in Kings Landing, he still thinks she did it and is ready to killer her. So yes, throughout this entire phase of the war, the Tyrells have no reason to suspect anyone but Brienne and Cat. Obviously the whole thing -- from Brienne's appearance at camp to her maneuvering onto the Rainbow Guard to the murder -- was a conspiracy cooked up between Stannis, Robb Stark -- aka, the son of the lord who tried to put Stannis on the throne -- and Selwyn Tarth -- aka, Stannis' bannerman. There is absolutely no way Robb could have made a peace offering to the Tyrells at that point.

Loras explaines his doubts though. Like how could Brienne (or Cat) deliver a clean strike upon Renlys armor. No human could do that

Mace is greedy. Offer him an alliance to half of westeors and he'll have to at least consider it. 

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The northern lords came to the defense of "Ned's little girl", but they did not have to give up their most valuable political possession to do so.

Theyre giving up their religion and gods, thats something.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robb says never. I dont see any scenario where hed free the kingslayer solely to appease his fathers killers.

My bad, I assumed thats what you meant.

But hes not... Like in the entire world hes one of the seven least suitable heirs. Tyrion, Lancel, Devan, Cleos Frey. Hell even Cersei or Tommen have a greater claim then Jaime

Citation please? Or just tell me the scene and ill look em up. 

I didnt mean, like, the happiness of Frey is Tywins concern, just the offer was too good. Roose and Walder volunteered to end the war, all it costs is Winterfell and Riverrun. 

Loras explaines his doubts though. Like how could Brienne (or Cat) deliver a clean strike upon Renlys armor. No human could do that

Mace is greedy. Offer him an alliance to half of westeors and he'll have to at least consider it. 

Theyre giving up their religion and gods, thats something.

It wouldn't be to please his father's killers. It would be to end the war on acceptable terms. If defeat for Robb is imminent, Jaime might be the difference between certain death or return to the north as Lord of Winterfell.

Tywin made it plainly clear that Tyrion will never inherit the Rock. Neither will Cersei, or else he wouldn't be so quick to marry her off once her regency is finished. All other contenders are nephews and sons of lesser branches. Jaime is Tywin's son and his legacy. This is why, after everything else Aerys did, Tywin only resigned when he lost Jaime to the KG. It's why Jaime was first and foremost on his mind during the Sack of KL. It's why he called an emergency war council after Jaime was taken, and then excoriated his commanders for talking strategy and tactics and lamenting the loss of Riverrun because none of this is as important as the fact that "They have my son!" The sole driving force behind nearly everything Tywin has done is to make Jaime the next Lord of the Rock.

Yes, after hearing Brienne's explanation, Loras has doubts, but this is months after Robb is dead. During the entire period that Sansa could have been used to link up with the Tyrells, the Tyrells either didn't need her hand because they already hade Renly, plus the largest army in the field, plus an alliance with the north almost in hand anyway, or after Renly's death they determined the Starks to be their enemy.

The northern lords are not giving up their gods. The clansmen openly mock "Red Raloo", saying that the old gods rule in the north, especially during winter. They are following a man who says he can retake Winterfell and restore it to the Starks. Where did you get the idea that Stannis insists they convert to his religion before he accepts their swords?

 

[Hugorfonics]

48 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

It wouldn't be to please his father's killers. It would be to end the war on acceptable terms. If defeat for Robb is imminent, Jaime might be the difference between certain death or return to the north as Lord of Winterfell.

And Robb made it clear hed choose certain death. 

Quote

“You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark.”

His mouth tightened. “No. Never.”

“There is no shame in it. Balon Greyjoy bent the knee to Robert when his rebellion failed. Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror rather than see his army face the fires.”

“Did Aegon kill King Torrhen’s father?” He pulled his hand from hers. “Never, I said.”

 

48 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin made it plainly clear that Tyrion will never inherit the Rock. Neither will Cersei, or else he wouldn't be so quick to marry her off once her regency is finished. All other contenders are nephews and sons of lesser branches. Jaime is Tywin's son and his legacy. This is why, after everything else Aerys did, Tywin only resigned when he lost Jaime to the KG.

Tywin made it clear to Tyrion. Not to northern and riverland lords. (And Robb can use the word "never" when discussing his future actions, Tywin cant really use the word "never" since said event follows his death.) Yes, Aerys robbed Tywin of his heir, as in, Jaime is no longer Tywins heir. 

52 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

It's why Jaime was first and foremost on his mind during the Sack of KL.

Ok. He wasnt. The sack was foremost, or dragonspawn was formost. Clearly Jaimes life was not or Tywin wouldn't sack his city. 

Jaimes life was a gamble, it was in the war of 5 and certainly during the sack. 

56 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

It's why he called an emergency war council after Jaime was taken, and then excoriated his commanders for talking strategy and tactics and lamenting the loss of Riverrun because none of this is as important as the fact that "They have my son!" The sole driving force behind nearly everything Tywin has done is to make Jaime the next Lord of the Rock.

He had one conversation with Jaime about it, noting that Cerseis dismissal of Barristan is what makes it all possible. 

What other instances did Tywin inact to make Jaime lord?

59 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, after hearing Brienne's explanation, Loras has doubts, but this is months after Robb is dead. During the entire period that Sansa could have been used to link up with the Tyrells, the Tyrells either didn't need her hand because they already hade Renly, plus the largest army in the field, plus an alliance with the north almost in hand anyway, or after Renly's death they determined the Starks to be their enemy.

Loras had doubts from the get go. Well, 5 minutes after the get go when his rainbow brothers were by his feet. Either way, he tried slicing Renlys armor and couldnt. This along with Briennes confession convinced Loras to exonarate her. Cat could have also convinced Tyrell, as she convinced others she spoke to of it.

An alliance with almost the north? Cat said Robb wont accept those conditions. 

It never hurts to hear a marriage proposal. Mace is the epitome of stupidity and greed, he'd listen to anything. Sansas hands good enough for Joff the crown prince it should he good enough for Loras too. Or maybe a Karstark or Frey. Or if Martell and Arryn dont play ball then a Yronwood or Royce. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The northern lords are not giving up their gods. The clansmen openly mock "Red Raloo", saying that the old gods rule in the north, especially during winter. They are following a man who says he can retake Winterfell and restore it to the Starks. Where did you get the idea that Stannis insists they convert to his religion before he accepts their swords?

Not convert, just burn their gods