Just how many people knew about the incest?

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Let's acknowledge that the original quote itself was wrong. I really hate this "gang up on one person" thing you guys do around here. "Everyone trusts Littlefinger". Nope, they don't. A lot of people don't. 

I don't think anyone is trying to gang up on you. This topic is on its 8th page, people are interested in it, you are going to get replies. It's genuinely not done to make you feel bad about your opinion.

GRRM is pretty clear, Littlefinger is trusted by everyone. He's being figurative, rather than literal. but his point still stands. It is how Littlefinger got his positon and maintains his influence and power.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Yep, he painted himself into a corner because he was an idiot, exactly. If he wanted Littlefinger to stay on his side he shouldn't have needlessly insulted him all the time. He could have bought Janos Slynt himself instead of relying on Littlefinger.

Littlefinger is the Master of Coin, Ned does not have the money to bribe Janos nor does he likely know if he can trust him. He is trusting Baelish to do it for him.

In the end Littlefinger is the only man Ned trusts on the Small Council

He trusted neither Pycelle nor Varys, and Ser Barristan was honor-bound to protect and defend the boy he thought his new king. The old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent

It was the mistake that led him to his downfall.

His smile was apologetic. "I did warn you not to trust me, you know."    

 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

He could have publicized Robert's will.

Robert's will still names Joffrey was his heir. Robert's still talks about his underage heir, that will is clearly not talking about Stannis.

And he was trying to do just that, publicize Robert's will but he needed the Small Council to confirm him as Regent.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

He could have utilized any of the powers which came being Hand instead of stumbling around like an aurochs. 

What powers? The Hand is not an independent power, the Hand, unless he has his own private military,  still needs the backing of the King and/or Small Council.  Ned did not have that being a fairly recent appointee and him taking on the Queen, the heir and some of her loyalists.

His idiocy was in trusting Littlefinger and not getting out of dodge ASAP, but this talk of powers is ignoring the actual positon Ned was in.

 

4 hours ago, Peach King said:

Whatever, the main thing is that Stannis would not like Littlefinger and would not keep him in his court.

I agree he might not like him. Stannis could count the amount of people he actually does like on the fingers of Davos Seaborn. He certainly was not fond of his first Hand, his Castellan or his Admiral.

As for keeping him at court, that is unclear. Davos was a smuggler, Stannis has no problem with using people with far more questionable pasts than Littlefinger. In terms of respectability there is a pretty big gulf between Baelish and Davos.

4 hours ago, Peach King said:

Catelyn only trusted him because he was her childhood friend,

But still trusted him.

4 hours ago, Peach King said:

Ned because he's an idiot, and also because he was her childhood friend .

But still trusted him/

4 hours ago, Peach King said:

And the Lords Declarant were shamed into giving him a year because LF bribed Lyn into attacking him. They didn't like him at all.

This is not about like it is about trust and those Lords are trusting him to keep his word.

Though I'd actually argue that its not clear that the 6 Lords don't like him, more that he is of much lower birth than they are and they don't like the idea of him governing them. It's elitism, it is not about like and it certainly is not about trust.

[Lady Winter Rose]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't think anyone is trying to gang up on you. This topic is on its 8th page, people are interested in it, you are going to get replies. It's genuinely not done to make you feel bad about your opinion.

This thread hasn't started about LF.

[John Suburbs]

On 6/21/2019 at 5:51 PM, Bernie Mac said:

She lives in that world. If the concept does not exist how is she using it? And she's not the first to use, it many other characters have talked about the same concept.

Clearly the concept exists in Westeros. When characters bring up putting wives aside they are not looked at like they are speaking a different language.

 

lol no, it is not. This is Cersei worried about being put aside due to Robert becoming more restless, not due to the truth 

"My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"    

Robert is growing more and more unhappy in his life, he craves adventure and the past. His taking half of the royal court to Wintefell on a half year journey, him wanting to participate in tourneys after years of not even being in a suit of armour, presumably him going after younger women like the mother of Barra and his growing resentment of Joffrey are all evidence of him becoming more restless and unruly.

I'm not arguing that the concept of setting aside a queen does not exist. I'm arguing that a king can't just do this for no good reason.

By your logic, we must conclude that Tyrion killed Joffrey because that's what he says at the end of his conversation with Jaime. But context matters, and in the context of that entire conversation it is clear that Tyrion is lying because he's just been hurt deeply. Well, the same thing applies here: Cersei is worried that Robert will set her aside if he becomes convinced of her incest, not just because he wants a younger, more beautiful queen.

 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not arguing that the concept of setting aside a queen does not exist. I'm arguing that a king can't just do this for no good reason.

By your logic, we must conclude that Tyrion killed Joffrey because that's what he says at the end of his conversation with Jaime. But context matters, and in the context of that entire conversation it is clear that Tyrion is lying because he's just been hurt deeply. Well, the same thing applies here: Cersei is worried that Robert will set her aside if he becomes convinced of her incest, not just because he wants a younger, more beautiful queen.

If Robert knew about or believed in the incest, there would be no need for a setting aside of the marriage. Cersei and Jaime and the children would just all be killed.

Cersei does not express that fear at that moment, she thinks that independent of the adultery there is a good chance that Robert will grow tired of her and replace her for a new Lyanna. This is what she expresses here.

[John Suburbs]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Robert knew about or believed in the incest, there would be no need for a setting aside of the marriage. Cersei and Jaime and the children would just all be killed.

Cersei does not express that fear at that moment, she thinks that independent of the adultery there is a good chance that Robert will grow tired of her and replace her for a new Lyanna. This is what she expresses here.

Sorry, but no. Reading the entire conversation, it is clear that she fears Ned would learn the accusations from Lysa, convince Robert and then Robert would use that to remove her. It is not an independent thought, it is actually an afterthought: all of these things will be used to remove my crown because Robert wants to get rid of me anyway. If he had the power to do that just because he wanted to, Cersei would have been gone years ago. Yes, with these charges, Cersei would be killed, but whether she realizes this or is just trying to shield the truth from Jaime is unclear.

[Bernie Mac]

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not arguing that the concept of setting aside a queen does not exist. I'm arguing that a king can't just do this for no good reason.

Depends what qualifies as a good reason to you, if the King would need the High Septon's permission or simply can do it by himself.  

We really don't know enough about the laws of the realm. Daemon Targaryen asked his brother to allow him to set aside his wife, Rhea Royce, and this was not done due to her being barren but due to the two of them not loving each other. Viserys I said no, but it seems it was the King's call to make, not the Faiths. All Robert has to do is convince himself he is allowed to set aside his wife.

Personally I don't think it was ever going to happen, but that was never really the crux of the argument but both Cersei and Renly believing it is a possibility, which they both clearly did.

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

By your logic, we must conclude that Tyrion killed Joffrey because that's what he says at the end of his conversation with Jaime.

lol no, I was very clear in multiple posts in this thread. As soon as there is a claim from an actual character in the series suggesting that Renly did in fact know about the incest then it becomes an issue but so far we've got Renly denying he knew about it. 

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

But context matters, and in the context of that entire conversation it is clear that Tyrion is lying because he's just been hurt deeply.

Yes. And we know from his own thoughts that he did not do it. With this case we have a definitive answer. We also know from Littlfinger's claims that Tyrion was innocent.

With Renly knowing about the incest not one character in the series claims or suggests he knows. Stannis and Cat both take his claim as sincere, they don't challenge him on this.

It is canon that Gendry's mother had blonde hair, we only have Gendry's claim about this but until another source in the book actually challenges that then his mother having blonde hair is the canon answer.

 

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Well, the same thing applies here: Cersei is worried that Robert will set her aside if he becomes convinced of her incest, not just because he wants a younger, more beautiful queen.

 

That is not the same as Cersei is more than clear why she thinks he will set her aside.

"My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

Your argument is on thin ice when you start ignoring what was actually said. Being restless is why she fears Robert will set her aside. I'm not sure how that is not clear from the words printed in the book.

 

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but no. Reading the entire conversation, it is clear that she fears Ned would learn the accusations from Lysa, convince Robert and then Robert would use that to remove her. It is not an independent thought, it is actually an afterthought: all of these things will be used to remove my crown because Robert wants to get rid of me anyway. If he had the power to do that just because he wanted to, Cersei would have been gone years ago. Yes, with these charges, Cersei would be killed, but whether she realizes this or is just trying to shield the truth from Jaime is unclear.

Cersei and Jaime are very clear what is going to happen when Robert were to find about the twincest. That's why Cersei wants Jaime to allow Bran to fall, and it is why Jaime saves him only to push him out the window.

The talk about Lysa's accusations is vague and unclear:

Quote

“His wife is Lady Arryn’s sister. It’s a wonder Lysa was not here to greet us with her accusations.”
[...]
“You fret too much. Lysa Arryn is a frightened cow.”
“That frightened cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.”
“If she knew anything, she would have gone to Robert before she fled King’s Landing.”
“When he had already agreed to foster that weakling son of hers at Casterly Rock? I think not. She knew the boy’s life would be hostage to her silence. She may grow bolder now that he’s safe atop the Eyrie.”

[...]

“Let Lady Arryn grow as bold as she likes. Whatever she knows, whatever she thinks she knows, she has no proof.” He paused a moment. “Or does she?”
“Do you think the king will require proof?” the woman said. “I tell you, he loves me not.”
“And whose fault is that, sweet sister?”

[...]

“You are as blind as Robert,” the woman was saying.
“If you mean I see the same thing, yes,” the man said. “I see a man who would sooner die than betray his king.”
“He betrayed one already, or have you forgotten?” the woman said. “Oh, I don’t deny he’s loyal to Robert, that’s obvious. What happens when Robert dies and Joff takes the throne? And the sooner that comes to pass, the safer we’ll all be. My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He’s still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?”

Whatever Cersei believed Lysa had accused them with cannot have been the twincest. Perhaps she ranted about her lord husband being murdered, laying the ground for her and Littlefinger's story that Cersei/the Lannisters were behind that. Jaime makes it clear that Lysa has no proof of anything and also that she never said anything to anyone concrete. Else he would know definitely stuff, and not have to ask Cersei. Also, Cersei would not base her own suspicions on things as vague as the fact that Lysa and Jon were married and shared a marriage bed. She assumes/suspects that Jon told Lysa about his investigations and suspicions. But she has no actual confirmation of that.

When Cersei comes to her final diatribe, her theme is not Lysa or what Lysa may tell Ned, it is Ned, and Ned's loyalty to Robert and a hypothetical King Joffrey, and the influence Ned would have over Robert. How the friendship and trust between these to would affect her own influence over Robert. She doesn't reference Lysa's accusations here, nor what Ned might learn about Lysa.

If she was afraid here what would happen if Ned learned stuff about the twincest or came to suspect it she would have said so. Instead, she speaks about Ned's general influence over Robert and Robert's own restlessness.

You are misreading Cersei here. She does not talk about Robert having hated her all the years, she senses that he is starting to slip and that he might replace her with a new Lyanna. She doesn't claim that Robert has reached that point yet, she fears he will end up at that point soon. And she fears Ned being at his side as his Hand will make this worse, accelerate this process.

It has nothing to do with Cersei fearing Ned might find out and tell Robert about the twincest.

[S. D]

On 6/22/2019 at 1:23 AM, Megorova said:

Edric Storm was fostered at Storm's End for many years, when Renly was still living there. So, if Renly ever saw one of Robert's other bastards, he could have started to suspect, that because Cersei's children don't look like Robert's other children, then they are not his. And then Littlefinger gave him more clues, at about the same time, when Jon Arryn started his investigation. He could have given those clues to Renly indirectly, thru one of his agents.

Yup, and Tobho Mott says he and Loras were regular customers, and Tobho Mott had Gendry as his assistant.

[Peach King]

On 6/24/2019 at 6:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

I don't think anyone is trying to gang up on you. This topic is on its 8th page, people are interested in it, you are going to get replies. It's genuinely not done to make you feel bad about your opinion.

GRRM is pretty clear, Littlefinger is trusted by everyone. He's being figurative, rather than literal. but his point still stands. It is how Littlefinger got his positon and maintains his influence and power.

Littlefinger is the Master of Coin, Ned does not have the money to bribe Janos nor does he likely know if he can trust him. He is trusting Baelish to do it for him.

In the end Littlefinger is the only man Ned trusts on the Small Council

He trusted neither Pycelle nor Varys, and Ser Barristan was honor-bound to protect and defend the boy he thought his new king. The old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent

It was the mistake that led him to his downfall.

His smile was apologetic. "I did warn you not to trust me, you know."    

 

Robert's will still names Joffrey was his heir. Robert's still talks about his underage heir, that will is clearly not talking about Stannis.

And he was trying to do just that, publicize Robert's will but he needed the Small Council to confirm him as Regent.

What powers? The Hand is not an independent power, the Hand, unless he has his own private military,  still needs the backing of the King and/or Small Council.  Ned did not have that being a fairly recent appointee and him taking on the Queen, the heir and some of her loyalists.

His idiocy was in trusting Littlefinger and not getting out of dodge ASAP, but this talk of powers is ignoring the actual positon Ned was in.

 

I agree he might not like him. Stannis could count the amount of people he actually does like on the fingers of Davos Seaborn. He certainly was not fond of his first Hand, his Castellan or his Admiral.

As for keeping him at court, that is unclear. Davos was a smuggler, Stannis has no problem with using people with far more questionable pasts than Littlefinger. In terms of respectability there is a pretty big gulf between Baelish and Davos.

But still trusted him.

But still trusted him/

This is not about like it is about trust and those Lords are trusting him to keep his word.

Though I'd actually argue that its not clear that the 6 Lords don't like him, more that he is of much lower birth than they are and they don't like the idea of him governing them. It's elitism, it is not about like and it certainly is not about trust.

Sorry, I swear I don't have a victim complex, it was just a bad morning.

But to answer your points:

He could have seized the treasury. And Ned can offer coin and lordships/knighthoods, not just coin unlike Littlefinger.

Barring that, he could have replaced Slynt with his own loyal man, like Tyrion did.

It wasn't really Ned's fault though, it was Catelyn who told him to trust Littlefinger. But he didn't have to put himself in a position where he needed LF, which he did by sending almost all his men away.

By "publicize" I mean make it known to the people of Kings Landing before morning comes, and he should have made the Small Council acknowledge it immediately.

Does he? I'm pretty sure the Small Council answers to the Hand. If Ned needed his own private military he could have raised his own armies or brought any number of men to the capital, he could even have made new seats on the Council or made new appointees to combat the Lannisters. And I'm not specifically talking about the time period after Robert's death, but his tenure as a whole.

I read a great essay which said Ned's problem is that he saw his position as Hand as being Robert's friend and advisor only, instead of a legal power in it's own right.

I also found another quote:

Quote

"Janos was hardly the first gold cloak ever to take a bribe, I grant you, but he may have been the first commander to fatten his purse by selling places and promotions. By the end he must have had half the officers in the City Watch paying him part of their wages. Isn't that so, Janos?"

Slynt's neck was purpling. "Lies, all lies! A strong man makes enemies, Your Grace knows that, they whisper lies behind your back. Naught was ever proven, not a man came forward . . ."

"Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds." Stannis narrowed his eyes. "Do not trifle with me, my lord. I saw the proof Jon Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king you would have lost more than your office, I promise you, but Robert shrugged away your little lapses. 'They all steal,' I recall him saying. 'Better a thief we know than one we don't, the next man might be worse.' Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant. Littlefinger had a nose for gold, and I'm certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did yourself."  (ASOS 882)

Stannis knows Littlefinger is corrupt.

And Davos got his fingers chopped off when he saved Stannis' life so what he does to Littlefinger isn't going to be pretty....

[Ran]

2 hours ago, S. D said:

Yup, and Tobho Mott says he and Loras were regular customers, and Tobho Mott had Gendry as his assistant.

Neither Gendry nor Tobho indicate that Renly had any interactions with or interest in Gendry. He was the best armorer in the city, of course Renly would use him.

Other people had seen Edric without ever thinking anything. This standard of "Well, this kid doesn't look like the other kids" would mean that we must suspect Edmure as being the father of Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon, because they all look like Tullys, not Starks. (Don't laugh, some weirdos have suggested this!)

The fact is that even Stannis admits that seeing one of these bastards is only "proof of a sort."

[S. D]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Neither Gendry nor Tobho indicate that Renly had any interactions with or interest in Gendry. He was the best armorer in the city, of course Renly would use him.

Other people had seen Edric without ever thinking anything. This standard of "Well, this kid doesn't look like the other kids" would mean that we must suspect Edmure as being the father of Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon, because they all look like Tullys, not Starks. (Don't laugh, some weirdos have suggested this!)

The fact is that even Stannis admits that seeing one of these bastards is only "proof of a sort."

Edmure wasn't Catelyn's constant companion and Cat and Ned didn't have a terrible relationship with each other. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, S. D said:

Edmure wasn't Catelyn's constant companion and Cat and Ned didn't have a terrible relationship with each other. 

I'm sorry but the automatic assumption of an unhappy (arranged) marriage is not that the wife has cuckolded her husband three times and is sleeping with her brother.

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

He could have seized the treasury. And Ned can offer coin and lordships/knighthoods, not just coin unlike Littlefinger.

With what men? He has sent half his men to the Riverlands, lost another two men to the fight with Jaime and has his daughters to worry about.

He's not got the manpower to seize the treasury and you are missing the point, Ned was trying to be subtle, to not alert Cersei to his actions.

How can Ned offer Lordships? He's not going to be Regent as his plan is to make Stannis King. What Lordships has he the power to give away?

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

Barring that, he could have replaced Slynt with his own loyal man, like Tyrion did.

That is the point, Ned did not have any loyal men.

Tyrion, who unlike Ned was no stranger to Kings Landing, comes to Kings Landing with an army.

A column of riders emerged from beneath the portcullis with a clink of steel and a clatter of hooves. Clegane stepped close to the king, one hand on the hilt of his longsword. The visitors were dinted and haggard and dusty, yet the standard they carried was the lion of Lannister, golden on its crimson field. A few wore the red cloaks and mail of Lannister men-at-arms, but more were freeriders and sellswords, armored in oddments and bristling with sharp steel . . . and there were others, monstrous savages out of one of Old Nan's tales, the scary ones Bran used to love.

Not only does Tyrion have his own army but he has Tywin's seal meaning the Lannister men in the city are also his to command and Tyrion, unlike Ned, had Bronn immediately hire sellswords within Kings Landing.

 

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

It wasn't really Ned's fault though, it was Catelyn who told him to trust Littlefinger.

No one told Ned to ask Littlefinger to bribe the Gold Cloaks, you can't blame Cat for Ned trying a royal coup. That is on Ned and Ned alone.

 

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

But he didn't have to put himself in a position where he needed LF, which he did by sending almost all his men away.

Again, that is on Ned and Ned alone.

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

By "publicize" I mean make it known to the people of Kings Landing before morning comes, and he should have made the Small Council acknowledge it immediately.#

How could he Robert was still alive? They can't acknowledge the King's will while the King is still alive. And the Will, even with Ned's change, still makes it clear that Joffrey is the heir.

He was trying to get them to acknowledge it ASAP.

"...the old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent. There would be time enough to deal with the succession when Arya and Sansa were safely back in Winterfell, and Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power.

"I would ask this council to confirm me as Lord Protector, as Robert wished,"

 

You are not offering any advice that Ned was not already trying to do.

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

Does he? I'm pretty sure the Small Council answers to the Hand.

No, they answer to the King.

Ned points out that he needs the Council to confirm his as Regent, he can't just order them to do so and even before that Renly points out that Ned needs the Council's to confirm him as Regent.

Joffrey outranks the Hand.

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

If Ned needed his own private military he could have raised his own armies or brought any number of men to the capital,

When?

And we are talking about what actually happened, lets not go down to many rabbit holes with endless what if's.

Ned did not know he'd need his own personal army in the Capital till it was too late. In only a number of days Ned finds out about Joffrey and his siblings and Robert is on his deathbed. He's not time to raise his own personal army. He was reliant on Littlefinger. Littlefinger was his only option in the time he had.

I'm not sure how this is not obvious? Ned is disgusted with the duplicity and the bribery but he has no other choice. If it was as simple as raising his own army in time he'd do just that. Time and distance prevents him from doing so.

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

he could even have made new seats on the Council or made new appointees to combat the Lannisters.

When?

Jon Arryn was not able to get Robert to replace Janos Slynt, what makes you think Ned could get him to replace the Small Council?

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

And I'm not specifically talking about the time period after Robert's death, but his tenure as a whole.

You are speaking with the benefit of hindsight. It's really easy to point out what Ned should have done after reading how he failed.

No Hand in the history of Westeros has became Hand and then just created new positons on the Small Council without the King's permission.

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

I read a great essay which said Ned's problem is that he saw his position as Hand as being Robert's friend and advisor only, instead of a legal power in it's own right.

That is not true. He was pissed with the economics of the Hand's Tourney and tried to curb that, he tried to stop the assassination of Dany and was ignored, he counselled against the appointment of Jaime as Warden of the East and was overruled.

Ned knew what his responsibilities were, his King simply did not allow him to do so.

It should also be noted that Ned is not familiar with running the realm. In time he may have replaced the Master of Coin, Master of Whispers and other lesser positons in the capital (he's stuck with the Master of Ships and Laws and it is the Citadel who appoint a Grand Maester) but he's inexperienced and needs those men in place while he's still learning the ropes.

It would be idiotic for an inexperienced Hand to appoint an inexperienced Master of Coin, Master of Whispers etc. and hope everyone to be up to speed straight away.

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

I also found another quote:

Stannis knows Littlefinger is corrupt.

That quote is saying he is corrupt on the Crown's behalf, not on his own. Big difference. It is Stannis laying the blame with Robert more so than anyone else.

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

And Davos got his fingers chopped off when he saved Stannis' life so what he does to Littlefinger isn't going to be pretty....

How so? Littlefinger's dealings are not thought to be worse than smuggling.

There is not a single quote in the book series that indicates that Stannis is going to punish Littlefinger. Not one

 

[Lord Varys]

Ned's fatal mistake while Robert lays dying is not rejecting Renly's or Littlefinger's sensible offers, it is him forging Robert's will and his intention to first set himself up as King Joffrey's Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm using the forged will and then use a position that has essentially now legal bearing considering that Joffrey is a false to crown the man Ned thinks is the rightful heir (Stannis).

Ned should have either told Robert what he had learned so that the king could have settled/tried to settle his succession on his deathbed, or he should have revealed the incest to the council, castle, city, and Realm at large while Robert was dying - sort of like Otto Hightower and Alicent 'settled the succession' before they crowned a new king. Had he acted as Robert's Hand in this he wouldn't have actually deceived his friend and king nor used underhanded means to get a position of power (regent and Protector) that should actually not exist.

But I personally think the greater problem still is not telling Robert. I understood why he couldn't do it but it was still a mistake and betrayal. Because Robert could have told Ned who he wanted as successor now that it turned out he had no trueborn children. He could have legitimized Mya Stone or Edric Storm, for instance, anointing them as his heirs. He could have anointed Stannis as his heir - or he could have disinherited him because he was unsuited to the crown. He could have named Renly his heir.

Not telling Robert left the decision who to make king to Ned alone, and neither we nor he will ever know whether Robert would have been comfortable with the idea to allow Stannis to sit the Iron Throne. I doubt he would have wanted that.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Neither Gendry nor Tobho indicate that Renly had any interactions with or interest in Gendry. He was the best armorer in the city, of course Renly would use him.

Other people had seen Edric without ever thinking anything. This standard of "Well, this kid doesn't look like the other kids" would mean that we must suspect Edmure as being the father of Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon, because they all look like Tullys, not Starks. (Don't laugh, some weirdos have suggested this!)

The fact is that even Stannis admits that seeing one of these bastards is only "proof of a sort."

I won’t laugh. Because E+C= S,R, R, B, is totally a legit theory that is soo obvious. You may be thinking “how come Catelyn doesn’t mention fucking her brother” Let me explain, Catelyn has a split personality. One is sex-crazed lover of incest the other the proper lady we see in story. 

So there. 

Kidding.

But I honestly wondered if anyone will ever bring Stannis’ lack of resemblance to either of his brothers to showcase the absurdity of his argument. 

I mean Stannis doesn’t look or really ever remarked upon as looking like Robert.

Could he be a bastard too?  Lol, I just know Stannis would go ballistic.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But I honestly wondered if anyone will ever bring Stannis’ lack of resemblance to either of his brothers to showcase the absurdity of his argument. 

I mean Stannis doesn’t look or really ever remarked upon as looking like Robert.

Could he be a bastard too?  Lol, I just know Stannis would go ballistic.

Stannis looks like his brothers. He has the same blue eyes and the same black hair. His body and physical strength is never remarked upon prior to Mel's life force drain (afterwards he is pretty haggard and should be physically weak) but chances are that he was never as talented a knight as both Robert and Renly - however, he definitely looked like them. And not every Baratheon has to be a warrior-god incarnate. Many are, but not all of them. Some of Lord Rogar's brothers are also not as impressive as he is. And nobody ever praised Steffon Baratheon as a great warrior, either.

[S. D]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I won’t laugh. Because E+C= S,R, R, B, is totally a legit theory that is soo obvious. You may be thinking “how come Catelyn doesn’t mention fucking her brother” Let me explain, Catelyn has a split personality. One is sex-crazed lover of incest the other the proper lady we see in story. 

So there. 

Kidding.

But I honestly wondered if anyone will ever bring Stannis’ lack of resemblance to either of his brothers to showcase the absurdity of his argument. 

I mean Stannis doesn’t look or really ever remarked upon as looking like Robert.

Could he be a bastard too?  Lol, I just know Stannis would go ballistic.

Lol. I already mentioned that that's not the only thing. Edmure didn't live with Catelyn.

Theres also:

1. The bastards

2. Baratheon genes being dominant in all cases 

3. Cersei and Robert's trainwreck of a marriage 

4. Cersei is queen, so her lover would have to be someone who's either a servant or a relative 

5. Jaime is the only person Cersei really spends time around

I can't believe you find it ludicrous that anyone would be suspicious when Stannis himself undertook an investigation precisely because /he/ got suspicious.

And Stannis has black hair and blue eyes, so your joke doesn't really work.

[Lord Varys]

LOL, guys. Cersei and Jaime are twin siblings. You do know that twins are rather often emotionally pretty close without fucking each other, right?

Stannis' and Jon's only 'proof' is their dirty fantasy and their rotten hearts, basically. They have no gossip about sex between the twins, and the looks of bastards and descriptions of dead Baratheon and Lannister offspring in a book are basically jokes.

[S. D]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, guys. Cersei and Jaime are twin siblings. You do know that twins are rather often emotionally pretty close without fucking each other, right?

Stannis' and Jon's only 'proof' is their dirty fantasy and their rotten hearts, basically. They have no gossip about sex between the twins, and the looks of bastards and descriptions of dead Baratheon and Lannister offspring in a book are basically jokes.

Who said anything about proof? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis looks like his brothers. He has the same blue eyes and the same black hair. His body and physical strength is never remarked upon prior to Mel's life force drain (afterwards he is pretty haggard and should be physically weak) but chances are that he was never as talented a knight as both Robert and Renly - however, he definitely looked like them. 

I really should clarify I meant look exactly like them. Like Ned remarks how Renly at the time AGOT looked liked a carbon copy of a young Robert. I don’t doubt Stannis looks similar to his bothers-but he doesn’t really look as similar to Renly and Robert as they do to each other.