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Just how many people knew about the incest?

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9 hours ago, S. D said:

Lol. I already mentioned that that's not the only thing. Edmure didn't live with Catelyn.

Who knows how many times he visited his love in the North. They were clearly just more devious than the Lannisters and kept their affair hidden from Ned.

Robert never saw the twins bang, no one did yet you are acting like the children looking like their mother should be obvious to anyone that they are not Robert's children. The same should be true of Ned and his own offspring right?

The trouble with your comment is that you have been given the answer and are now puzzled why the characters in the books have not came to the same conclusion you were given by Cersei herself.

It seems obvious to the reader because the reader has been given the admission of guilt and all the evidence. The people in the books have not, Joffrey looking like his mother is not a sign that he is a bastard, Robert's bastards looking like him is not a sign either. Most characters are not making that connection just like Ned is not making that connection between Robb and Jon.

9 hours ago, S. D said:

Theres also:

1. The bastards

Bastard. Robert had only ever acknowledged one of his bastards. So to  pretty much everyone in the realm Edric is the only known bastard of Robert. Obviously there are pockets of people connected with each unacknowledged bastard who would know or suspect who their father was, but that's it.

This is evidence when Robert was alive, he could confirm that those were his children or that he at least slept with the women the appropriate number of years ago. After Robert's death it is far less convincing.

 

9 hours ago, S. D said:

2. Baratheon genes being dominant in all cases 

That is never claimed. What the research did show was that of the three previous marriages between Lannister and Baratheon the children inherited the looks of their Baratheon parent.  

But Baratheon's don't have some magical gene that makes them dominant and that is not the belief in Westeros. We know that Brienne has Baratheon ancestry, she does not have the famous Baratheon black hair nor do I imagine many Baratheon women had her build or facial features.

The Baratheons have ruled the Stormlands for 300 years, if their genes were so dominant the majority of the Stormland nobility would be Baratheon in appearance. They are not.

Even Jon Arryn, who uncovered this, did not think this was conclusive. He does not blurt out the truth on his deathbed but leaves hints so others can pick up his investigation.

9 hours ago, S. D said:

3. Cersei and Robert's trainwreck of a marriage 

Can't imagine that such marriages were that uncommon.

Doran and his wife were not happy and they actually married for love. Jon Arryn and Lysa were hardly happy. Balon's wife lives apart from him. Stannis and Selyse are hardly the picture of a decent marriage.

I'd also point out that Cersei kept her bruises and the attempted rape to herself, she hid those from everyone including Jaime. Robert's complaints to Ned are not likely to be told to most people but the people he is closest to.

 

9 hours ago, S. D said:

4. Cersei is queen, so her lover would have to be someone who's either a servant or a relative 

Right, but you are working backwards here.

If you tell someone that Cersei's children were bastards then you'd have to figure out who the possible fathers are but people are not under the impression that the Queen would be stupid enough to cuckold the king, to do so three times.

 

9 hours ago, S. D said:

5. Jaime is the only person Cersei really spends time around

Again, you are working with the benefit of hindsight. You know the answer so are looking for clues on who it could be.

The realm of Westeros does not have the answer so they are not looking for clues on who the father of 'Robert's' children are.

9 hours ago, S. D said:

I can't believe you find it ludicrous that anyone would be suspicious when Stannis himself undertook an investigation precisely because /he/  got suspicious.

 

We don't know that. We have no idea how Stannis found out, or when he found out. We don't know if someone made an innocent remark to him (like Sansa to Ned) and it clicked, we don't know if someone who knew (Varys- Littlefinger) planted the seed in his thoughts, we don't know if he saw Cersei and Jaime act suspiciously towards each other.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who knows how many times he visited his love in the North. They were clearly just more devious than the Lannisters and kept their affair hidden from Ned.

Robert never saw the twins bang, no one did yet you are acting like the children looking like their mother should be obvious to anyone that they are not Robert's children. The same should be true of Ned and his own offspring right?

The trouble with your comment is that you have been given the answer and are now puzzled why the characters in the books have not came to the same conclusion you were given by Cersei herself.

It seems obvious to the reader because the reader has been given the admission of guilt and all the evidence. The people in the books have not, Joffrey looking like his mother is not a sign that he is a bastard, Robert's bastards looking like him is not a sign either. Most characters are not making that connection just like Ned is not making that connection between Robb and Jon.

Bastard. Robert had only ever acknowledged one of his bastards. So to  pretty much everyone in the realm Edric is the only known bastard of Robert. Obviously there are pockets of people connected with each unacknowledged bastard who would know or suspect who their father was, but that's it.

This is evidence when Robert was alive, he could confirm that those were his children or that he at least slept with the women the appropriate number of years ago. After Robert's death it is far less convincing.

 

That is never claimed. What the research did show was that of the three previous marriages between Lannister and Baratheon the children inherited the looks of their Baratheon parent.  

But Baratheon's don't have some magical gene that makes them dominant and that is not the belief in Westeros. We know that Brienne has Baratheon ancestry, she does not have the famous Baratheon black hair nor do I imagine many Baratheon women had her build or facial features.

The Baratheons have ruled the Stormlands for 300 years, if their genes were so dominant the majority of the Stormland nobility would be Baratheon in appearance. They are not.

Even Jon Arryn, who uncovered this, did not think this was conclusive. He does not blurt out the truth on his deathbed but leaves hints so others can pick up his investigation.

Can't imagine that such marriages were that uncommon.

Doran and his wife were not happy and they actually married for love. Jon Arryn and Lysa were hardly happy. Balon's wife lives apart from him. Stannis and Selyse are hardly the picture of a decent marriage.

I'd also point out that Cersei kept her bruises and the attempted rape to herself, she hid those from everyone including Jaime. Robert's complaints to Ned are not likely to be told to most people but the people he is closest to.

 

Right, but you are working backwards here.

If you tell someone that Cersei's children were bastards then you'd have to figure out who the possible fathers are but people are not under the impression that the Queen would be stupid enough to cuckold the king, to do so three times.

 

Again, you are working with the benefit of hindsight. You know the answer so are looking for clues on who it could be.

The realm of Westeros does not have the answer so they are not looking for clues on who the father of 'Robert's' children are.

We don't know that. We have no idea how Stannis found out, or when he found out. We don't know if someone made an innocent remark to him (like Sansa to Ned) and it clicked, we don't know if someone who knew (Varys- Littlefinger) planted the seed in his thoughts, we don't know if he saw Cersei and Jaime act suspiciously towards each other.

 

When did I say it was obvious? Oh, never, that's right.

I also never said I was puzzled that other characters didn't come to the conclusion that Cersei might be sleeping with her brother.

Stop putting words in my mouth, please.

And I'm sure Renly would be able to figure out that Gendry is Robert's bastard. He looks exactly like him.

Maybe not /all/ cases, but consider how Steffon Robert and Stannis' kids all inherited their looks.

Cersei and Robert fought in public, it's not like it was this big secret that they hated each other. There were also rumours that Cersei killed Robert's bastards and sold their mother into slavery, so her cuckolding the king isn't actually that extreme compared to that.

I'm just saying with all the factors combined, it's not put of the realm of possibility that someone might put the pieces together.

Edited by S. D

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, S. D said:

When did I say it was obvious? Oh, never, that's right.

Excellent, we are on the same page. It was not obvious. So Renly now knowing is perfectly acceptable conclusion in the books.

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I also never said I was puzzled that other characters didn't come to the conclusion that Cersei might be sleeping with her brother.

That is the inference from your comments. If that is not what you meant then I apologize.

Can you expand what you mean in your last few posts talking about siblings being close. What is your point to such observations?

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Stop putting words in my mouth, please.

Come on, I'm only quoting what you've said.

It sounded that the twins being close should have made people suspicious. Is that not what you meant? Please clarify as your posts are not doing that.

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And I'm sure Renly would be able to figure out that Gendry is Robert's bastard. He looks exactly like him.

Surely you must be aware that this contradicts your other point. If the Baratheon gene is that dominant it could be any Baratheon descendent going back 300 years.

But no, we have no idea if Renly took any notice of the Blacksmith's apprentice. Stannis did, Stannis was told who he was before hand and stared intensely at Gendry. Gendry makes no comment on Renly ever doing the same.

And regardless if Gendry did ever think he was a bastard of Robert's why would he care? He does not know who Gendry's mother was or what she looked like, we do as Ned knows to ask. Ned, Jon and Stannis meet Gendry looking for an answer to Joffrey and his siblings parentage. If Renly is in the dark there is no reason for him to think too much about this.

Robert having bastards is not a big deal.

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Maybe not /all/ cases, but consider how Steffon Robert and Stannis' kids all inherited their looks.

Stannis is prematurely bald, his daughter has the Florent ears.

And once again, this is only noticeable if you already know what you are looking for. 99.9999% of the people who know what both Robert and his 'legitimate' children look like are not looking for reasons why they are bastards.

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Cersei and Robert fought in public,

Did they? Can you refresh my memory of these times?

The argument infront of Ned is not public, it is a private argument with one witness.

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it's not like it was this big secret that they hated each other.

I think it is. Just because a couple are in love does not mean people presume they hate each other. We know they hate each other due to Ned being Robert's best friend and Cersei being a POV character and admitting to murdering her husband.

Most people at court are not aware of this.

"No. I am what I am. The king makes use of me, but it shames him. A most puissant warrior is our Robert, and such a manly man has little love for sneaks and spies and eunuchs. If a day should come when Cersei whispers, 'Kill that man,' Ilyn Payne will snick my head off in a twinkling, and who will mourn poor Varys then? North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." He reached out and touched Ned with a soft hand. "But you, Lord Stark … I think … no, I know … he would not kill you, not even for his queen, and there may lie our salvation."

Robert brings his wife to him to Winterfell, he gives in to his wife when she wants a Direwolf killed, he gives into his wife when she suggests Jaime be made Warden.

Them hating each other is a well kept secret, them not being in love is not.

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There were also rumours that Cersei killed Robert's bastards and sold their mother into slavery,

Not rumours, Varys tells Ned that, no one else does so it is not like this was common gossip.

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so her cuckolding the king isn't actually that extreme compared to that.

Compared to something that literally everyone is unaware of?

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I'm just saying with all the factors combined, it's not put of the realm of possibility that someone might put the pieces together.

What factors? 

 

  • Robert having bastards is not a factor and due to all but one of them being unacknowledged the appearance of them is not going to be a big deal.  And it is not just that the bastards take after Robert in looks but that their mothers were blonde, which adds into the evidence from the books on previous offspring of Baratheon-Lannister unions (a book that does not seem to have been borrowed to Renly or Stannis, but to Ned and Jon).
  • An arranged marriage being just that is also not going to be suspicious. Them not being happy is not unique to them in their world. For every Ned and Tywin there is Lord and Lady Martell, Arryn and Greyjoy

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Posted (edited)
On 6/18/2019 at 9:00 PM, Ran said:

It's weird, but it seems to me that back before AFfC, the forums were pretty united in reading Renly at face value on this. I think the long wait has tended to lead to more and more conspiratorial readings of events in the novels, more out there theories and more over-thinking of some of the situations and characters.

The show happened, I can't even recall the amount of discussions I've had about Renly where people talk about him telling Ned he should be king. 
 

But with regards to the thread, how are we still going round in circles with the Renly knowing discussion when every bit of textual evidence suggests he doesn't. It's basically entirely headcannon at this point.
 

  • He knows but never uses it in his plan to supplant Cersei with Margaery, this plot is simply to diminish Lannister influence at court, the kids don't need to be bastards for this to work, a common practice in basically every kingdom in history for noble families to influence kings through wives, mistresses and concubines 
  • He knows but doesn't use it to become second in line to the throne by telling Robert despite people's constant insistence that he intended to be king all along
  • He knows but doesn't mention it to Ned when he urges Ned to take the royal children into his power and to take the regency... for Robert's children
  • He knows but doesn't use this information when he CLAIMS THE THRONE, like usurping a disliked brother wouldn't be easier than usurping a disliked brother and Robert's legitimate children 
  • He knows but doesn't counter nor deflect the information at the parlay, he merely accepts it may be true or it may not, Stannis doesn't seem to think Renly should have already known or call him out on it
  • He knows but muses about the possibility of it being true with Cat in his tent when such a performance would gain him nothing

 

He's basically the worst schemer ever at this point since he's not used this critical information at all but then again perhaps he just didn't know, this argument always reads like it's just trying to throw an extra level of things to hate on Renly from the Stannis camp in that he knew Stannis was the true heir all along but still chose to betray him. Renly's an opportunistic usurper that took his chance to protect himself and take the throne, people can dislike him for that but they don't need to headcannon him into knowing about the incest all along to add an extra level of sinister scheming to top it off, just like how people seem to find it strange and suspicious that the Lord of Storm's End, master of laws... king's brother can gather 100 men in the city, everyone absolutely makes mountains out of mole hills with Renly to fit their bias. 

Ultimately if Renly knew about the incest why has GRRM not written anything that hints at that, an entire thread of speculation that ignores the actual text basically. His musings in the tent make zero sense if he did know and it would be a case of GRRM writing something that doesn't make any sense just to obfuscate the idea that he actually did know which is frankly ridiculous. Maybe Renly did know, maybe he was trying to become king all along but until someone shows me something in the text that actually hints at this that isn't just speculation about his motives then I'm not buying it. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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7 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:
  • He knows but never uses it in his plan to supplant Cersei with Margaery, this plot is simply to diminish Lannister influence at court, the kids don't need to be bastards for this to work, a common practice in basically every kingdom in history for noble families to influence kings through wives, mistresses and concubines 
  • He knows but doesn't use it to become second in line to the throne by telling Robert despite people's constant insistence that he intended to be king all along
  • He knows but doesn't mention it to Ned when he urges Ned to take the royal children into his power and to take the regency... for Robert's children
  • He knows but doesn't use this information when he CLAIMS THE THRONE, like usurping a disliked brother wouldn't be easier than usurping a disliked brother and Robert's legitimate children 
  • He knows but doesn't counter nor deflect the information at the parlay, he merely accepts it may be true or it may not, Stannis doesn't seem to think Renly should have already known or call him out on it
  • He knows but muses about the possibility of it being true with Cat in his tent when such a performance would gain him nothing

He knows but did nothing, because it's impossible to prove, that Cersei had an affair with Jaime, and that her children are not Robert's. The only way to prove it, is to catch them in the act. And then, when it will become known, really KNOWN, not just suspected, that Cersei is a cheater, then she could be tortured and forced to admit, that the father of her children is Jaime. Though, even if she herself will admit it, it won't be a concrete prove, because that "confession" was ripped out of her under torture, or by threatening her children. Unless Robert himself saw Cersei having sex with Jaime, or with some other man, only then he would have believed that she's cheating on him. He was that shortsighted and full of himself. He thought that he can do whatever he wants, and bed as many women as he wants, but his wife is loyal to him, because he is her husband and her King.

And after Robert's death, even catching Cersei in the act, is totally useless. What evidence will there be, that there was this sort of activity between them, even when Robert was alive? There's zero evidences. Thus, revealing to anyone, that Renly actually knew (or at least suspected something), is contrproductive. It would be admitting, that he had commited high treason, he knew important personal information, concerning the King's family, and didn't gave that information to the King. For something like that, he could be even executed, if the Great Council will decide so. Because it's unlikely, that even if Renly managed to defeat the rest of his opponents, all Lords of 7K would have accepted him as the new King. Under Varys' influence, it's even possible, that the Great Council would have voted for Targaryen restoration, and then Varys could have revealed, that Aegon Targaryen is supposedly alive. So, 7K would have had a choice to make Renly their King, with him having support only of The Reach, or to chose fAegon, who had Golden Company, and additionally would have gained support of Dorne, and maybe even Dany's dragons and her armies (if the War of Five Kings would have ended sooner, with Renly's victory, then Varys would have had more time to get Dany on fAegon's side, and they would have came to Westeros together, with their united armies).

Admitting to Cat and Starks, that Renly was aware of Cersei's adultery, knew, that Ned also knows about it, and, unlike Renly, was going to do something about this, and thus was endangering his life, but Renly didn't helped him, would be contrproductive for Renly's relationship with Starks. They weren't friends before, but if Renly would have admitted to Cat, that he was aware of the danger, but deliberately left Ned behind, then that would have made them enemies.

Thus, there was at least two reasons for Renly to never, even after Robert's death, to admit that he did knew - 1. knowing that information and not acting on it, was a treason (though acting without having evidences was unreasonable, would have only caused him troubles, because accusing the Queen in adultery could have had really bad concequences for him. And, as I already said, unless Cersei was caught in the act, or confessed in being guilty in adultery, it was impossible to prove); 2. it would have irrevocably spoiled his relationship with Starks, and made The North and Riverlands his enemies.

We don't have Renly's POV. GRRM never said, whether Renly knew or didn't knew. Thus, even though Renly never admitted that he did knew, it doesn't mean, that he didn't knew. And it doesn't matter, that the headcanon is that Renly didn't knew, because another headcanon is that Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow, and that Rhaego is dead, and both are wrong.

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Posted (edited)

Again literally nothing but speculation compared to the textual evidence that suggests he doesn't. 

"So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer’s get—” “—your brother is the lawful heir.” “While he lives,” Renly admitted. “Though it’s a fool’s law, wouldn’t you agree?"

Renly literally keeps Cat prisoner to take her to Storm's End to watch him crush Stannis, this man doesn't need to pull off an incredibly niche act in front of Cat in his tent to maintain his relationship with her, he's literally threatening her behind his smiles and she knows it. Again, this sentence is textual evidence whereas the idea that he doesn't know has literally none, you're asking me to believe that this very human musing on his claiming the throne is in fact him acting for the sake of Cat, something GRRM doesn't hint at anywhere else with the text so why would I assume he's trying to show a lie, if he intended that Renly was lying why include this scene like this at all and why not allude to it anywhere else in the books, putting in hints that he doesn't know without hinting that he actually did would be bullshit writing, why even bother. 

You've decided Renly knew and won't accept anything but his confession from him personally, hey maybe he did know but until GRRM states it explicitly I'd rather work with the text we actually do have that hints that he doesn't because it actually exists. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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Posted (edited)
On 6/25/2019 at 5:48 PM, Bernie Mac said:

With what men? He has sent half his men to the Riverlands, lost another two men to the fight with Jaime and has his daughters to worry about.

He's not got the manpower to seize the treasury and you are missing the point, Ned was trying to be subtle, to not alert Cersei to his actions.

How can Ned offer Lordships? He's not going to be Regent as his plan is to make Stannis King. What Lordships has he the power to give away?

That is the point, Ned did not have any loyal men.

Tyrion, who unlike Ned was no stranger to Kings Landing, comes to Kings Landing with an army.

A column of riders emerged from beneath the portcullis with a clink of steel and a clatter of hooves. Clegane stepped close to the king, one hand on the hilt of his longsword. The visitors were dinted and haggard and dusty, yet the standard they carried was the lion of Lannister, golden on its crimson field. A few wore the red cloaks and mail of Lannister men-at-arms, but more were freeriders and sellswords, armored in oddments and bristling with sharp steel . . . and there were others, monstrous savages out of one of Old Nan's tales, the scary ones Bran used to love.

Not only does Tyrion have his own army but he has Tywin's seal meaning the Lannister men in the city are also his to command and Tyrion, unlike Ned, had Bronn immediately hire sellswords within Kings Landing.

 

No one told Ned to ask Littlefinger to bribe the Gold Cloaks, you can't blame Cat for Ned trying a royal coup. That is on Ned and Ned alone.

 

Again, that is on Ned and Ned alone.

How could he Robert was still alive? They can't acknowledge the King's will while the King is still alive. And the Will, even with Ned's change, still makes it clear that Joffrey is the heir.

He was trying to get them to acknowledge it ASAP.

"...the old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent. There would be time enough to deal with the succession when Arya and Sansa were safely back in Winterfell, and Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power.
"I would ask this council to confirm me as Lord Protector, as Robert wished,"
 
You are not offering any advice that Ned was not already trying to do.

No, they answer to the King.

Ned points out that he needs the Council to confirm his as Regent, he can't just order them to do so and even before that Renly points out that Ned needs the Council's to confirm him as Regent.

Joffrey outranks the Hand.

When?

And we are talking about what actually happened, lets not go down to many rabbit holes with endless what if's.

Ned did not know he'd need his own personal army in the Capital till it was too late. In only a number of days Ned finds out about Joffrey and his siblings and Robert is on his deathbed. He's not time to raise his own personal army. He was reliant on Littlefinger. Littlefinger was his only option in the time he had.

I'm not sure how this is not obvious? Ned is disgusted with the duplicity and the bribery but he has no other choice. If it was as simple as raising his own army in time he'd do just that. Time and distance prevents him from doing so.

When?

Jon Arryn was not able to get Robert to replace Janos Slynt, what makes you think Ned could get him to replace the Small Council?

You are speaking with the benefit of hindsight. It's really easy to point out what Ned should have done after reading how he failed.

No Hand in the history of Westeros has became Hand and then just created new positons on the Small Council without the King's permission.

That is not true. He was pissed with the economics of the Hand's Tourney and tried to curb that, he tried to stop the assassination of Dany and was ignored, he counselled against the appointment of Jaime as Warden of the East and was overruled.

Ned knew what his responsibilities were, his King simply did not allow him to do so.

It should also be noted that Ned is not familiar with running the realm. In time he may have replaced the Master of Coin, Master of Whispers and other lesser positons in the capital (he's stuck with the Master of Ships and Laws and it is the Citadel who appoint a Grand Maester) but he's inexperienced and needs those men in place while he's still learning the ropes.

It would be idiotic for an inexperienced Hand to appoint an inexperienced Master of Coin, Master of Whispers etc. and hope everyone to be up to speed straight away.

That quote is saying he is corrupt on the Crown's behalf, not on his own. Big difference. It is Stannis laying the blame with Robert more so than anyone else.

How so? Littlefinger's dealings are not thought to be worse than smuggling.

There is not a single quote in the book series that indicates that Stannis is going to punish Littlefinger. Not one

 

Yep, that was a failure on his part, he should have sent the men loyal to the crown instead of his own.

Ned was trying to be subtle but he alerted Cersei himself and told Sansa who's obsessed with Joffrey, that they were leaving. Gotcha.

Were talking about a scenario where Ned will make an offer to Slynt so Slynt would support Ned. He's not immediately giving him anything. Slynt supporting Ned means that Ned would be Regent, meaning Ned can give him a lordship. It also means Ned would have the manpower to sieze the treasury. And Stannis isn't immediately going to be there, nor does Slynt know that Ned knows about the incest, which is the only reason why Ned would put Stannis on the throne.

Ned had his household guard with him, are they not loyal? :bs:

So because Ned is a stranger, that means he can't fill King's Landing with his own soldiers? Not very persuasive.

Oh yeah, and Tyrion hired sellswords. Why couldn't Ned do that?

Agree, it's on Ned. What was most idiotic was him insulting Littlefinger the whole time yet still expecting him to be loyal to him anyway. Do one or the other, Ned.

He tried to confirm himself as Lord Protector only in the morning. The will decreed Ned would be Regent, Joffrey was underage. If everyone knew, it would be very hard for the Lannisters to call him a traitor unjustly, because Robert was very loved and people would want to follow his last testimony. Or he could have made the incest public, like someone else suggested.

Wrong, the Hand can give the Small Council orders. And Tyrion got rid of Pycelle and Slynt. They were Cersei's men, and Cersei was Regent, so "Ned couldn't do anything since Robert wouldn't allow it" simply cannot be argued. He could have seized on the moment when Renly said Slynt could not keep the peace, to replace him and bring his own forces into KL. 

When? At any time. He could have appointed his own men in important positions, he could called in men from other places in the Realm if the North was too far away. Ned was dissatisfied with the Lannisters, but he didn't do anything about it.

It's not the benefit of hindsight. Ned knew Jon Arryn was killed, he knew the Lannisters were dangerous and that they might have tried to assassinate Bran, but he didn't try to strengthen his position at all. Even though he knew he was wading into dangerous territory he brought his children with him.

If Ned said he wants more people on the Council, I see no reason for Robert to refuse him. He's not firing anyone.

Those scenes show him trying to advise and persuade Robert.

This I somewhat agree with. But again he doesn't have to fire anyone, he can just make sure he has loyal and competent men with him and give them posts.

But this isn't even relevant to this whole thread so imma stop right here.

Uh no, that quote indicates that Stannis knows that LF cheats and embezzles, and that LF is the one who's a bad influence on Robert, not the other way around.

We have LF himself saying he doesn't want Stannis on the throne, we have LF taking steps to combat Stannis ever becoming king, we have Stannis wanting to ban brothels, we have Stannis saying he wants to scour the court clean, we have Stannis saying he knows of Littlefinger's corruption. Yeah, I'm very sure all of this is meant to indicate Stannis and LF would have a very happy and loving relationship.
:lol:

Edited by Peach King

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

He knows but did nothing, because it's impossible to prove, that Cersei had an affair with Jaime, and that her children are not Robert's. The only way to prove it, is to catch them in the act. And then, when it will become known, really KNOWN, not just suspected, that Cersei is a cheater, then she could be tortured and forced to admit, that the father of her children is Jaime. 

Go tell that to Anne Boleyn.

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On 6/26/2019 at 2:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Did they? Can you refresh my memory of these times?

The argument infront of Ned is not public, it is a private argument with one witness.

“No,” he thundered in a voice that drowned out all other speech.
Sansa was shocked to see the king on his feet, red of face, reeling. He had a goblet of wine in one hand, and he was drunk as a man could be. “You do not tell me what to do, woman,” he screamed at Queen Cersei. “I am king here, do you understand? I rule here, and if I say that I will fight tomorrow, I will fight!”
Everyone was staring. Sansa saw Ser Barristan, and the king’s brother Renly, and the short
man who had talked to her so oddly and touched her hair, but no one made a move to interfere.
The queen’s face was a mask, so bloodless that it might have been sculpted from snow. She rose from the table, gathered her skirts around her, and stormed off in silence, servants trailing behind. (AGOT 207)

Definitely a well kept secret. :lol:

Quote

Not rumours, Varys tells Ned that, no one else does so it is not like this was common gossip.

Wrong, it was LF, and he said he heard of it through "whispers".

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10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

Wrong, it was LF, and he said he heard of it through "whispers".

So not common knowledge. Glad we have established that.

 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Yep, that was a failure on his part, he should have sent the men loyal to the crown instead of his own.

He did just that, but Ned's predicament is that many of the men loyal to the Crown are also loyal to the Queen. The majority of the court don't distinguish between the two.

Ned did not have an excess amount of people he trusted and could use.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Ned was trying to be subtle but he alerted Cersei himself and told Sansa who's obsessed with Joffrey, that they were leaving. Gotcha.

Yes. Ned was trying to be subtle. How does his daughter blabbing disprove that?

Is there any need for the 'gotcha'? You are coming across as a little sensitive in this topic.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Were talking about a scenario where Ned will make an offer to Slynt so Slynt would support Ned.

Ned has not got the finances to make such a deal and barely knows Slynt, plus his honour won't let him debase himself that much.

Littlefinger has the finances, a better relationship with Slynt; he's Ned's only real choice.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

He's not immediately giving him anything. Slynt supporting Ned means that Ned would be Regent,

But he wouldn't. Ned's plan is to crown Stannis. Ned is only regent if the king is underage, if Joffrey is not the king then Ned is not regent. It's a catch 22 situation, but Ned only has authority if Joffrey is King.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

meaning Ned can give him a lordship.

No, not that we know of. For one a Regent, as confirmed by both Ned and Renly, needs to be confirmed by the Small Council to become Regent. He's not in a positon to promise anything.

But again, he's only Regent if Joffrey is King.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

It also means Ned would have the manpower to sieze the treasury.

From who? When does he time to do all this? He barely knows Slynt, has his own affairs to organize and has barely enough men to guard himself and his daughters.

Ned does not have the manpower to seize the treasury and even if he did such an action would immediately tip off the Queen to his actions.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

And Stannis isn't immediately going to be there. 

He's not. So? Regents are only for underage or incapacitated monarchs, Stannis is neither. Ned is only regent if the King is underage, per the will of Robert Baratheon. If the King is not underage then Ned is nothing.

The whole reason why Ned tries to quickly have the Small Council confirm his Regency is because without it he has no real power to act.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Ned had his household guard with him, are they not loyal? :bs:

Let me rephrase that, he does not have enough loyal men in Kings Landing. Are you really disputing this?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

So because Ned is a stranger, that means he can't fill King's Landing with his own soldiers? Not very persuasive.

No one ever claimed that. Can you stop with the straw man bullshit.

Ned brings 50 soldiers to court, he did not feel he needed to bring any more from Winterfell due to not suspecting that he'd need his own personal army to stage a coup.

Ned only realizes that he needs his own men when its too late, the Gold Cloaks are his best option.

What part of this is confusing you?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Oh yeah, and Tyrion hired sellswords. Why couldn't Ned do that?

He could have done, he never considers that an option. Tyrion hires sellswords because of the lesson he learnt from Ned. Cause and Effect.

The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, but Ned for most of his term as Hand was unaware of just how much danger he was in or that he'd need to stay and stage a coup.

Ned did not realize that Robert would be on his death bed and he'd not have the full backing of the Crown. You can criticize Ned for his naivety here, but that was the position he was in.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Agree, it's on Ned. What was most idiotic was him insulting Littlefinger the whole time yet still expecting him to be loyal to him anyway. Do one or the other, Ned.

He was not insulting him all the time. He initially took Littlefinger's talk of his wife as an insult and acted rashly, but he's hardly constantly insulting him.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

He tried to confirm himself as Lord Protector only in the morning.

When was he meant to do it? The King has to be dead and the Small Council present to do so.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

The will decreed Ned would be Regent, Joffrey was underage. If everyone knew, it would be very hard for the Lannisters to call him a traitor unjustly,

They call him a traitor because he tried to arrest the Royal Family in the throne room. Cersei, before that, tells Ned to go home, he refuses thinking he had the upper hand.

He has zero reason to suspect that he does not have the upper hand in that situation so you suggesting alternatives does not make a lick of sense. You are rewriting too much of the actual book to make a pretty poor point.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

because Robert was very loved and people would want to follow his last testimony. Or he could have made the incest public, like someone else suggested.

When? Robert had died hours ago, not weeks.

When does Ned have all the time to do this?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

Wrong, the Hand can give the Small Council orders.

He's only Hand while Robert lives, but you are incorrect. The Hand needs the support of the King to rule in his stead.

Jon Arryn wanted to remove Janos Slynt, he was not allowed. The powers of a Hand depend entirely on the Hand and the King.

There is zero indication in the books that the Hands under Robert had unlimited power to act without Robert's permission.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

And Tyrion got rid of Pycelle and Slynt.

Yes. Tyrion, as he points out in his own chapters, has learnt from Ned's lesson. Tyrion has been given a small army, Ned was down to 20 men in the short period between him finding out about the incest and Robert's death.

Tyrion, like Cregan Stark almost two centuries earlier, has the power to do what he pleases because he has both the military  backing  and the support of the Crown due to Cersei not wanting to displease her father.

Tyrion and Ned's positons are not the same. Tyrion expected to need an army, Ned did not. Do you really not understand this? You are judging Ned on hindsight.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

They were Cersei's men,

And Tyrion learnt from Ned's mistakes, he acted too quickly with Slynt that Cersei could not reverse the decision. He also has his father's permission to do so.

The major difference between Ned and Tyrion is that Tyrion and Cersei, despite their differences, are working on the same side in ACOK.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

and Cersei was Regent, so "Ned couldn't do anything since Robert wouldn't allow it" simply cannot be argued.

Has anyone argued that about in regards to Tyrion and Slynt?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

He could have seized on the moment when Renly said Slynt could not keep the peace, to replace him and bring his own forces into KL. 

Well no, he could not have, not without Robert's permission. That is an established fact, the previous Hand wanted rid of Slynt, he did not get his wish.

Ned, at that point, did not know he would be staging a coup. He has no reason to think he needs to bring his own personal army to the capital.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

When? At any time. He could have appointed his own men in important positions, he could called in men from other places in the Realm if the North was too far away. Ned was dissatisfied with the Lannisters, but he didn't do anything about it.

He can't remove the Queens' family. Of course he did not do anything about it. He could not get Robert to change his mind on Jaime being Warden of the East, he's hardly going to try and have Tywin's nephews removed as Robert's squires.

Which Lannister positons should he have replaced?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

It's not the benefit of hindsight.

Yeah, it is. You have all these answers for questions that Ned never knew he'd be facing.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Ned knew Jon Arryn was killed, he knew the Lannister's were dangerous and that they might have tried to assassinate Bran, but he didn't try to strengthen his position at all.

He was a little out of his depth, but he had zero reason to suspect that Robert would die, Joffrey was a bastard and that he'd need to stage a coup to wrestle control of the realm.

Ned is only in a positon to need his own private army for a few days. He simply did not have enough time to raise them.

He also trusts Jon Arryn, so he is not going to go out of his way to make too many changes right away. Ned was not to know that he'd only be Hand for a matter of months. Once again, you are basing this on hindsight, Ned may have eventually made the changes to right the court, he did not know there was such a time limit on it.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Even though he knew he was wading into dangerous territory he brought his children with him.

He didn't really have much choice regarding Sansa  as she was betrothed to the Prince.

 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

If Ned said he wants more people on the Council, I see no reason for Robert to refuse him. He's not firing anyone.

No Hand in the history of Westeros has just started and then created new positons on the spot. Again, you are pulling an answer out of thin air.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Those scenes show him trying to advise and persuade Robert.

Exactly, his job. Glad we are agreed on that.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

This I somewhat agree with. But again he doesn't have to fire anyone, he can just make sure he has loyal and competent men with him and give them jobs at court.

He could, but, once again, you are criticizing him for not having the gift of hindsight. He's a stranger to Kings Landing, does know the government officials to be able to judge their suitability for the positon.

The changes he can make are likely to the positons Jon Arryn granted and he has no reason to suspect that Jon Arryn did not appoint decent, capable men in those positons.

In time he could have learnt all that, sadly for Ned he did not have time. He could not have known that.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Uh no, that quote indicates that Stannis knows that LF cheats and embezzles, and that LF is the one who's a bad influence on Robert, not the other way around.

No, it does not. We don't need to interpret it any other way than the text has it, that Littlefiner's shadiness was done with the support of Robert.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

We have LF himself saying he doesn't want Stannis on the throne,

Of course. Are you under the impression that I or any one else in this thread has claimed that Littlefinger wanted him as King? They don't.

But Littlefinger not wanting Stannis to be King does not mean he told Renly about the incest like someone (perhaps you) originally claimed in this thread.

Littlefinger not wanting Stannis as King does not mean he is particularly fond of Renly. Most of the realm don't want Stannis as King, Littlefinger has not told them about the incest either.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

we have LF taking steps to combat Stannis ever becoming king, we have Stannis wanting to ban brothels, we have Stannis saying he wants to scour the court clean, we have Stannis saying he knows of Littlefinger's corruption. Yeah, I'm very sure all of this is meant to indicate Stannis and LF would have a very happy and loving relationship.
:lol:

 

What the fuck dude? Who claimed they would have a very happy and loving relationship? Stannis does not have a very happy and loving relationship with his wife, his brothers and his own councillors on Dragonstone and at the Wall.

Stannis is more than capable of working with people he is not in a very happy and loving relationship. Surely you acknowledge that?

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