HBO’s own inconsistency with Jon’s ending.

[Apoplexy]

5 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Hmm maybe. That’s one intrepretation if it. Also possible he was just looking back to see if they all made it out, then reminisce about the last time he went beyond the wall to bring them back and now he is leading them back there. It could be anything. They seem to shirk back from giving him a definitive end. In the synopsis and blog why not simply say, "Jon Snow leaves to stay with the Wildlings where he belongs". Why all this playing with words and not wanting to set it in stone. And if this is truly where they wanted him to end up why even bring the Nights Watch into it at all? Just tell Grey Worm, he will be banished from Westeros beyond the wall where he would live out the rest of his days and he won’t be allowed to return. That’s just as much a punishment as the NW. Why was the NW even mentioned?

I could not agree more. A lot of HBOs decisions seem inexplicable to me. Why not just say what they intended for Jon. If they mean to appease people by leaving it ambiguous and letting people make their own determination, it's a cop-out. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

I may be in the minority here but I never really thought his relationships with the wildlings was ever that good. If there was Ygritte or Val on the other side I would agree with you but there is just Tormund. I compare that to his relationship with Mormont, Sam, Edd, Pyp, Glenn and Arya and Sansa and it still isn’t that emotional or close. I would put Jon’s relationship with Tormund on the same footing as that with Tyrion, he knows him and they are friends but that’s it. His relationship with Sam was far more developed and I would have liked it if Arya or Sam or Tyrion had gone with him as it would help me shake off this feeling of loneliness with Jon. They tried to put in his line where Jon says "I wish I was going with you" but it’s a case of show not tell. His relationship with his NW brothers was developed on screen, not the wildlings which is why I stick to him ending up with the NW at Castle Black as he can meet his family and still go out on long missions with the wildlings (although there is nothing of interest there just my opinion).  I also think Jon’s broken record of "I don’t want it" ever since he was resurrected kept being brought up so as to force us to believe he loved the wildlings and the Show Jon is completely unlike the book Jon who imo is ambitious and smart and GRRM will do a much better job at this.

I think the reason this is the case is mainly because they had the books to flesh out his relationships with the Nights Watch while the moment the wildlings came on to the scene they ran out of material so there is no group of friends on the wildlings side in the show. They just rushed through it with not much development.  It’s possible GRRM would address this in his 3000 pages books and make me believe it but then that’s s decade from now. 

I read it the same way too, his relationship with the wildlings is more of a learning/growth experience to appreciate differences/diversity, but it's not exactly where "he belongs." People think he's a wildling now, by association, but he says they're wrong, in his thoughts: 

“I am not the trusting fool you take me for … nor am I half wildling, no matter what you believe.”

Val's reaction to Shireen - kill her on sight - continues to illustrate the idea that they're a people apart from him. 

[King Wyman]

IMO in the books, Jon will keep his vows and stay at the Wall.

The Others are completely different entities than they were in the show, and I doubt they can be fully wiped out.

I’d also be shocked if the much older Tormund (or Mance) makes it, and beyond him, Jon has no connection to the wildings.  

Even with Val and Ygritte, Jon never thinks “damn I wish we could go live in peace beyond the wall with these super friendly wildings”. It’s always “damn I wish I could take her to Winterfell”. 

I think the show left it purposefully vague because they knew there was no in-world reason to have a NW, but didn’t want to fully deviate from the ending GRRM gave them for Jon. 

[RYShh]

48 minutes ago, King Wyman said:

IMO in the books, Jon will keep his vows and stay at the Wall.

The Others are completely different entities than they were in the show, and I doubt they can be fully wiped out.

I’d also be shocked if the much older Tormund (or Mance) makes it, and beyond him, Jon has no connection to the wildings.  

Even with Val and Ygritte, Jon never thinks “damn I wish we could go live in peace beyond the wall with these super friendly wildings”. It’s always “damn I wish I could take her to Winterfell”. 

I think the show left it purposefully vague because they knew there was no in-world reason to have a NW, but didn’t want to fully deviate from the ending GRRM gave them for Jon. 

As far as I remember, there is a ''Great Other'' in the books, so it could be the same guy with the Night King. When you kill the Great Other, the Others will fall as well.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Not parsing servitude and servanthood, I guess we disagree. 

My argument is that his admirable qualities (I do find them admirable, I don't think he is stupid or naive because of them) do not necessarily imply his journey is about about service. For me personally, the whole Jon going back to the NW was a bit fatalistic. And of course, you are free to disagree.

I'm leaning toward fatalistic as well, even though I see points about Jon acting sacrificially and that is worthy, the author gave him very realistic desires? To be a Stark at Winterfell? Like this isn't some pipe dream. 

Institutions that demand celibacy and severance of family are only cut out for a certain type of person - the Barristan and Benjen types. Jon has proven over and over that he can't fit into that mold. Just serving the realm isn't enough to be satisfying when the author gives the character desires that anyone would want. This isnt even complicated by delusions like Dany, who is mixing up her desire for home with conquering. The only reason Jon wouldn't be a Stark is through no fault of his own - his parentage. 

GRRM didn't even follow the basic maxim to achieve a bittersweet ending, which is "give the characters what they want in the worst possible way." Instead, the message is, "you dont get anything you want at all for your sacrifices, just get to keep on being a duty robot"

[King Wyman]

14 minutes ago, RYShh said:

As far as I remember, there is a ''Great Other'' in the books, so it could be the same guy with the Night King. When you kill the Great Other, the Others will fall as well.

I’m pretty sure the Others are a separate race that has been part of the world since it was created. Like the CotF or even humans (Others can actually reproduce with humans, and have their own females). 

They seem way more entrenched in the world than their show origins depicted.

I always took the “Great Other” to mean their leader. Not their creator, which I’m guessing is the same “creator” of humans.

At least that’s how I see it. Anything is possible.

[Apoplexy]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm leaning toward fatalistic as well, even though I see points about Jon acting sacrificially and that is worthy, the author gave him very realistic desires? To be a Stark at Winterfell? Like this isn't some pipe dream. 

Institutions that demand celibacy and severance of family are only cut out for a certain type of person - the Barristan and Benjen types. Jon has proven over and over that he can't fit into that mold. Just serving the realm isn't enough to be satisfying when the author gives the character desires that anyone would want. This isnt even complicated by delusions like Dany, who is mixing up her desire for home with conquering. The only reason Jon wouldn't be a Stark is through no fault of his own - his parentage. 

GRRM didn't even follow the basic maxim to achieve a bittersweet ending, which is "give the characters what they want in the worst possible way." Instead, the message is, "you dont get anything you want at all for your sacrifices, just get to keep on being a duty robot"

And it was just wasn't just Jon's ending that felt fatalistic to me. Dany, couldn't help her genes, Jaime, couldn't help his addiction, Arya, couldn't get past her demons despite of trying. The only people who somewhat got what they wanted were the 'players' of the game, like tyrion and sansa. Cersei got someone to comfort her towards the end despite of trying to kill that person twice. It seemed like a theme, a theme I didn't appreciate.

[Kaapstad]

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And it was just wasn't just Jon's ending that felt fatalistic to me. Dany, couldn't help her genes, Jaime, couldn't help his addiction, Arya, couldn't get past her demons despite of trying. The only people who somewhat got what they wanted were the 'players' of the game, like tyrion and sansa. Cersei got someone to comfort her towards the end despite of trying to kill that person twice. It seemed like a theme, a theme I didn't appreciate.

And the message being sent out by this story is horrible and extremely unrealistic just for being sad for the sake of being sad. Sansa was plotting against Dany ever since she came to Winterfell. Tyrion and Arya kept imploring Jon to kill her. Even after she blew up KL, Jon shockingly still wasn’t ready to kill her at which point we can actually say he was her co-partner in the crime and needs to hang with her. Anyway he did the good deed, and got sent to the NW as a punishment. The guy who told him to kill her was handing out titles whilst being in chains comically and as a reward he gets 6 kingdoms. Sansa gets the North. There is no way in real life a patriot could get treated his badly. This ending is just as unrealistic as the happily ever after endings on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

[Kaapstad]

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I read it the same way too, his relationship with the wildlings is more of a learning/growth experience to appreciate differences/diversity, but it's not exactly where "he belongs." People think he's a wildling now, by association, but he says they're wrong, in his thoughts: 

“I am not the trusting fool you take me for … nor am I half wildling, no matter what you believe.”

Val's reaction to Shireen - kill her on sight - continues to illustrate the idea that they're a people apart from him. 

Yup. I am fairly certain Tormund won’t make it in the books. Characters like Bronn and him are not killed simply because they are fan favourites on the show. He dies in the long night. And Jon has no one else amongst the wildlings. I don’t consider this a happy ending at all for Jon if he really is going to stay with them. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

7 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

And the message being sent out by this story is horrible and extremely unrealistic just for being sad for the sake of being sad. Sansa was plotting against Dany ever since she came to Winterfell. Tyrion and Arya kept imploring Jon to kill her. Even after she blew up KL, Jon shockingly still wasn’t ready to kill her at which point we can actually say he was her co-partner in the crime and needs to hang with her. Anyway he did the good deed, and got sent to the NW as a punishment. The guy who told him to kill her was handing out titles whilst being in chains comically and as a reward he gets 6 kingdoms. Sansa gets the North. There is no way in real life a patriot could get treated his badly. This ending is just as unrealistic as the happily ever after endings on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

When you put it this way it sucks for Jon. But he was a captive of a foreign army he should have been died then the North should have gone to war with Grey Worm and Tyrion should be died. But they gave us this mess. Maybe they should have shown more of the process for his release and not just told us it was a compromise. 

[Kaapstad]

1 hour ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

When you put it this way it sucks for Jon. But he was a captive of a foreign army he should have been died then the North should have gone to war with Grey Worm and Tyrion should be died. But they gave us this mess. Maybe they should have shown more of the process for his release and not just told us it was a compromise. 

The alternate ending script has Gendry siding with Yara and Dorne which seems stupid as Arya was there too. Can you imagine how Arya can possibly stay silent when Gendry sides with Dany? After she laid with him too. Be glad they didn’t show all that stuff. The ending is stupid as they didn’t send anyone with Jon into his exile when almost the entire judge and jury were friends if Jon. We had Sam,Sansa,Arya,Davos,Brienne and Royce on this council along with Reed and this was the best they could come up with? Also I think the creators possibly misintrepretated Martin’s notes as how can they bring up a NW with no purpose instead of just exiling him behind the wall directly.I find it a dismal and a shoddy end as they refuse to confirm his fate. It should be unambiguous  

I mean look at his LOTR ending. You can see the clear parallels to Jon here meeting his family (almost the same, there are 3 people to see him off just like in GOT) but look at the smile at the end (Jon never smiles in this ending) and so many people going with him.It’s a clear ending. There are no contradicting bits and pieces here. He is leaving. Forever. The End. This feeling of contentment is not there with Jon. It’s dismal.

 

 

[BlackLightning]

Why is this still a thing?

Everyone with a brain knows that this was a terrible, illogical ending.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Given the vast number of things that take place in the final season that don’t make sense, there is no reason that Jon rejoining the Watch needs to make sense.