Fair Compensation for House Frey

[Darth Sidious]

19 hours ago, The Hoare said:

A frey girl should marry Robb...

As it was supposed to be

That would do for a start and I would have it consummated before giving the unreliable Starks any help.  But it's not enough.  I would require all trade and commerce coming from the north to the south have to pass through the Frey's bridge.  Double the toll is fair.  The right to kill any Crannogman who crosses to the south without paying toll at the bridge.  No sneaking under the bridge on a canoe.  

[The Hoare]

4 hours ago, Anti-Stark said:

But it's not enough

Do you mean before or after Robb's betrayal?

[Gerg Sknab]

21 hours ago, Anti-Stark said:

That would do for a start and I would have it consummated before giving the unreliable Starks any help.  But it's not enough.  I would require all trade and commerce coming from the north to the south have to pass through the Frey's bridge.  Double the toll is fair.  The right to kill any Crannogman who crosses to the south without paying toll at the bridge.  No sneaking under the bridge on a canoe.  

What have you got against the Crannogs? Frey already has his compensation in Dipshit Tully. Shucks the fact of the matter is Frey himself broke any trust what with the agreements he made with Bolton, Lannister and Westerling see Tyrion 1 ASOS Tywin and his letter writing has already set in motion the Red Wedding even before the Frey's know of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling first noted on Catelyn 2

[Ser Leftwich]

Being stripped of lands and titles and exiled. That is the best they can hope for.

[Impbread]

On 6/11/2019 at 10:49 AM, Gerg Sknab said:

HUH? where do you do you come up with Jeyne Westerling as Frey compensation, it is made pretty clear that it is westerling compensation nothing to do with Freys and in the same vane in the same chapter it is made clear that it is a Frey fallacy regarding Greywind's death considering Raynald freed him a Jon chapter and a Bran chapter in Adwd confirm that fact. 

Greywind is dead. They cut his head off and sewed it to Robb’s body. Reread. Reynaldo tried to free him but failed.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Being stripped of lands and titles and exiled. That is the best they can hope for.

That works. Myself, I was thinking pies?

 

[Gerg Sknab]

Frey fantasy and you believe it? ADWD Jon age 46 four remained Shggy, Summer Nymera, Greywind plus the one he couldn't sense Lady, Bran page 69 No the boy whispered we have a pack Lady's dead and maybe Greywind but somewhere is Nymeria, Shaggydog and Ghost remember Ghost? AFFC Jamie page 949 when they began feathering the wolf Raynald seized Whalen axe and cut the monster loose of the net they'd thrown over him. Whalen says he took a quarrel in his shoulder and another in the gut, but still managed to  reach the walllwalk and throw himself into the river. That is three separate chapters outlining a Frey fallacy however you choose to believe third or fourthhand information related in a ASOS Tyrion chapter

[Gerg Sknab]

1 hour ago, Impbread said:

Greywind is dead. They cut his head off and sewed it to Robb’s body. Reread. Reynaldo tried to free him but failed.

What verification do you have outside third or fourth hand  rendition as related in a Tyrion ASOS chapter? Frey fallacy.

[Impbread]

3 minutes ago, Gerg Sknab said:

What verification do you have outside third or fourth hand  rendition as related in a Tyrion ASOS chapter? Frey fallacy.

Merritt admits to BWB that they cut the wolves head off and sewed to Robb’s body. I’m not trying to derail the OP. Greywind is with the Old Gods now though it is known.

[Impbread]

36 minutes ago, Gerg Sknab said:

What verification do you have outside third or fourth hand  rendition as related in a Tyrion ASOS chapter? Frey fallacy.

The wiki: Frey men kill Greywind but not before he is released by Reynald. Greywinds crowned head is sewn onto Robb’s corpse as a final insult to the Starks.

[Bernie Mac]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 2:15 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Suspects wanted in question for attempted murder get arrested all the time. Its not kidnapping if its done on behalf of the state, its policing

It was  not done on behalf of the state. Cat was in the wrong, there are two reasons we know she was in the wrong

 

• Ned feels the need to lie about the situation, falsely claiming that he ordered his wife to do that. Why is honourable Ned lying if Cat had the authority to arrest someone in the Riverlands?
• The King himself states it was an abduction, Cat, in his words, broke the King's peace.

 

Suspects wanted for murder get arrested by the police, Citizens don't abduct them and take them to their sisters without alerting the proper authorities. Cat made a mistake.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 6/11/2019 at 7:41 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

Increased toll on all goods coming from the North for 100 years.  Walder's choice of any northern highborn boys for his daughters.  No exceptions.  House Frey to displace the Tullys as the leading house in the riverlands.  The abortion for Jeyne Westerling if she is pregnant.  A reasonable land from the Starks to the Freys.  To give the Freys a foothold in the north.  The death of greywind for attacking a Frey.  

I would add hostages.  Rickon must become a permanent guest at the twins. 

[the trees have eyes]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Suspects wanted for murder get arrested by the police, Citizens don't abduct them and take them to their sisters without alerting the proper authorities. Cat made a mistake.

There is no police in Westeros.  Lords exercise justice in King Robert's name and use their own retainers to enforce the laws and effect that justice if necessary, in other words, routinely.

In the tricky case of being confronted outside Stark lands with a powerful and well-connected man she has been led to believe attempted to murder her son and with only Ser Rodrik to hand, Cat arrests him on her authority as Lady of Winterfell (she speaks in Ned's name now he is Hand of the King and Robb a minor) and daughter of Hoster Tully, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and relies on her father's retainers to carry out the arrest.  She takes him to the Eyrie to gather what evidence Lysa has against him / the Lannisters in general (remember that little letter from Lysa to Cat at the start of the book saying the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn?), in preparation for a trial under King Robert's adjudication.

Fact that she is "wrong" is something she begins to wonder herself due to Tyrion's persuasive logic but by then Tyrion is Lysa's prisoner not her own and subject to her arbitrary (and lunatic) version of justice.

Ned considers Cat's move a mistake because it is of course premature and not what they had planned: he has not yet uncovered the truth of Jon Arryn's fate (and never does) and he has not gained Robert's trust for any move against the Lannisters.  But this is to confuse power politics at the very top with the exercise of justice and that is quite understandable because in the last reckoning Cat's decision to arrest Tyrion is based on her worry what mischief he might set in motion were he to return to KL and inform Jaime and Cersei of her secret visit, in turn making them wonder how soon Ned would strike at them. 

You can't really untangle the two but the idea that a high-ranking noblewoman could order someone's arrest in her Husband's name or in his place (as his regent which is unquestionably what she is at Winterfell) or as a surrogate for her Father is fairly clear in terms of how the system works.  The fact that is is open to arbitrary abuse is of course why we no longer have such a system.  All the Riverlands retainers at the inn answer her call to arrest Tyrion (with the exception of those dubious Freys) because that is how it works: no police force just a posse of retainers rounded up by a noble to arrest a suspect.

[The Hoare]

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You can't really untangle the two but the idea that a high-ranking noblewoman could order someone's arrest in her Husband's name or in his place (as his regent which is unquestionably what she is at Winterfell) or as a surrogate for her Father is fairly clear in terms of how the system works

She didn't arrested him in Eddard's name. She's not in the North and she never asked permission from her father.

That's why King Robert consider it a kidnapping, because that's what it was.

In general, in a medieval society a noble couldn't abduct another noble without consent from a higher party. Really, the kidnapping just becomes somewhat lawful when Ned lies about his order, which is pretty obvious that he did it only to protect Cat.

[Bernie Mac]

47 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is no police in Westeros.  Lords exercise justice in King Robert's name and use their own retainers to enforce the laws and effect that justice if necessary, in other words, routinely.

Wives of Lords do not. If you can name another incidence in the series of this happening Id' love to read it.

The King states that Cat was in the wrong, he is the law.

Ned feels the need to lie about his wife, clearly Ned did not think she was in the right or honourable Ned would never have lied to his King.

Had Cat been in the North she may have been in the right, but she was not, she was outside of her husband's jurisdiction. She abducted the King's brother-in-law and told no one where she was going, what she was going to do with him thus creating an international incident.

She fucked up. Had she brought Tyrion to her father or to Kings Landing she'd have a case, instead she imprisoned someone she had no right to imprison.

47 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

You can't really untangle the two but the idea that a high-ranking noblewoman could order someone's arrest in her Husband's name or in his place (as his regent which is unquestionably what she is at Winterfell)

I have no idea why you are bringing this up, she never does that. We have the scene, at no point does she arrest Tyrion in her husband's name. Ned lied about that. The fact that Ned felt the need to lie about this should make it pretty obvious that Cat was in the wrong.

The usually sensible and intelligent Cat was put on the spot and acted irrationally. This was not a planned move, and had Tyrion not noticed her nothing likely would have happened. She overreacted to being spotted thousands of miles from where she was meant to be and made sure the entire realm knew she was not in the North (something she was trying to keep a secret).

47 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

or as a surrogat for her Father is fairly clear in terms of how the system works.

Why is that not clear to King Robert or Ned, the Hand?

You say its clear that this is how the system works, any other examples of this?

 

[Bernie Mac]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 3:58 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Robb didn’t drag them into anything. They were not upholding their oaths to their liege lord, Hoster Tully and should have been hanged as oathbreakers, rather than be rewarded with a marriage offer in the first place.

Should Hoster have been hung for being an oathbreaker as well? Or is him breaking his oaths to the Targs for a marriage alliance acceptable to you?

 

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:31 PM, The Sleeper said:

Catelyn was acting Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North.  Ned approved the arrest as Hand of the King. When Robert was informed he ordered Tyrion's release and for the matter to subside. 

When did Ned approve of this arrest?

He is blindsided by the news of it and then lies to Robert about it saying he told his wife to do it. If Cat was in the right why would Ned lie?

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:31 PM, The Sleeper said:

In this matter neither Ned nor Robert, who both outrank Tywin, gave him leave to call his banners or raid the Riverlands. There is no such thing as Tywin's point of view from a legal standpoint. Tyrion was arrested on the Hand's authority and released on the King's. 

No, Tyrion was not arrested by the Hand's authority. Have you actually read the chapter Tyrion is arrested because it does not seem that you have. Ned's name is not mentioned once.

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:31 PM, The Sleeper said:

Tywin had no business or legal right calling his banners and redressing the matter himself

That is true. Same for Robb when he hears his father was arrested by the Crown.

The nobles in the series tend overeact when they feel their family have been wrongly arrested or abducted against the wishes of the king.

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:31 PM, The Sleeper said:

As such, Edmure calling his banners was perfectly legit and Walder should have been there.

Meh. Walder and Mallister did the right thing. Had more Riverlords been more patient their lands would not have been overran.

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:31 PM, The Sleeper said:

 

It isn't like its claimed otherwise. His excuse to Catelyn is him telling her to go fuck herself. That whole chapter is quite telling, particularly how he describes his own oath as "some words". 

That is what an oath is, it is some words.

By the end of ASOS most of the Riverlords have sworn new oaths to Tommen. People on this forum often argue that these oaths are meaningless, that they are just words.

Lords in both the real middle ages and GRRM's version often ignored their oaths.

[Hugorfonics]

40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The King states that Cat was in the wrong, he is the law.

The king says "he will not have it" whatever the hell that means. Robert doesn't care if Cat was in the wrong or right. A just king would hear the argument, at least cliff notes. But "to hell with her reasons"; Tyrion should be set free after Robert said so. Not before though as Cat would have no reason to know Robert "will not have it"

Quote

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp - "

"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."

 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Citizens don't abduct them and take them to their sisters without alerting the proper authorities. Cat made a mistake.

Ok, so, 2 parts.

1. Proper authorities. What does that mean? Can any lord dispense justice? If a crime is commited in, lets say, Pyke can it be tried in, say, Sunspear?

I would say yes. Tarly of Horn Hill for example was dispensing justice in the Riverlands. Id venture to say Lysa is one of the proper authorities.

2. Technically, Cat didnt abduct Tyrion. The men at arms did on behalf of the lords they serve. 

Quote

"In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

 

[Bernie Mac]

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The king says "he will not have it" whatever the hell that means.

Lets actually fully quote the King

"Keep the king's peace, you say. Is this how you keep my peace, Ned? Seven men are dead . . . "

"Eight," the queen corrected. "Tregar died this morning, of the blow Lord Stark gave him."

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

The King does not think it was a lawful arrest, he says it was an abduction.

And it should be noted that even before Robert calls it an abduction Ned has already lied about the incidenct

"I take it you know what Catelyn has done?"

"I do." Ned took a small swallow of wine. "My lady wife is blameless, Your Grace. All she did she did at my command."

"I am not pleased, Ned," Robert grumbled.

 

These are not the actions of someone who believes his wife was carrying out the letter of the law. These are the actions and words of a good man trying to protect his wife for screwing up

 

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

 

Robert doesn't care if Cat was in the wrong or right.

He doesn't? Can you quote him on this?

If Cat was in the right why does Ned pre-emptively lie about the situation? These are not the actions of the lawful.

Tyrion does not think for one moment he was lawfully arrested

All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction.    

 

And even at the Wall they don't think Cat was legally in the right

The Old Bear shrugged. "A boy king … I imagine he'll listen to his mother. A pity the dwarf isn't with them. He's the lad's uncle, and he saw our need when he visited us. It was a bad thing, your lady mother taking him captive—"

No one in the series, not the King, not Tyrion not Jorah, close ally of the Starks or even Ned himself think that Cat was in the right.

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

A just king would hear the argument, at least cliff notes. But "to hell with her reasons"; Tyrion should be set free after Robert said so. Not before though as Cat would have no reason to know Robert "will not have it"

lol she just arrested the King's brother-in-law on the spur of the moment. She was not planning on doing it she overreacted and realized she fucked up a short time later.

 

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Ok, so, 2 parts.

1. Proper authorities. What does that mean? Can any lord dispense justice? If a crime is commited in, lets say, Pyke can it be tried in, say, Sunspear?

Cat is not a Lord, she is the wife of a Lord. She has no authority in the Riverlands, if she had arrested Tyrion in the North, where she has been made Castellan, she could.

Furthermore she has no evidence that a crime has actually been committed. No evidence that Tyrion was responsible for this possible crime.

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I would say yes. Tarly of Horn Hill for example was dispensing justice in the Riverlands. Id venture to say Lysa is one of the proper authorities.

Tarly has been granted authority by the King to do so. When did Robert or Ned grant Cat the same authority?

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

2. Technically, Cat didnt abduct Tyrion. The men at arms did on behalf of the lords they serve. 

No, they did so on behalf of Cat.

[Bernie Mac]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:18 AM, Adam Yozza said:

No they don't. First of all you're ignoing the point that when the banners get called, its perfectly legal and not breaking any oaths to the King. Walder refuses to march and so he's breaking his oath to the Tully's.

He didn't refuse, he called his banners and by the time he and Mallister could move Tully was defeated and Tywin the Hand of the King.

Walder had done as the Tully's requested, he had called his banners. It is hardly his fault that he is further away than any other Riverlord and has the largest army to raise.

"I called my swords, yes I did, here they are, you saw them on the walls. It was my intent to march as soon as all my strength was assembled. Well, to send my sons. I am well past marching myself, Lady Catelyn." He looked around for likely confirmation and pointed to a tall, stooped man of fifty years. "Tell her, Jared. Tell her that was my intent."

"It was, my lady," said Ser Jared Frey, one of his sons by his second wife. "On my honor."

"Is it my fault that your fool brother lost his battle before we could march?"

 

Sadly once Tywin had been made Hand things are far more complicated.

 

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:18 AM, Adam Yozza said:

Second of all, it seems there is a higher emphasis placed on oaths to a liege lord than to the King.

It does not seem like that at all. No King would accept that.

We have seen countless civil wars where random lords have chosen the king over their Overlord, not once in the series is it suggested, never mind claimed, that one oath is more important than the other.

Lords who treat their vassals well can expect loyalty when they rebel. Hoster did not not get along with his most powerful Vassal, that is on Hoster.

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:18 AM, Adam Yozza said:

 

After the Wo5K the Tully's are attainted and imprisoned, but for the most part their vassals aren't punished much at all.

You do know why that is right? The Tully's held out longer than their vassals, many of the Riverlords were suing for peace in ASOS, the Tully's carried on rebelling for almost a year after many of their lords had gave up.

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:18 AM, Adam Yozza said:

Same goes for the North. After Robert's Rebellion, the Darry's, Mootons and Conningtons all received massive punishment while Dorne and the Reach didn't.

You do know why that is right?

Robert was not in a positon to punish either realm without them rebelling. This is simply common sense.

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:18 AM, Adam Yozza said:

 

They all fought for the same cause so why does one get punished and the other doesn't? Simple. One broke the oath to their immediate liege and the other did not.

Robert was in a positon to punish one, he was not in a positon to punish the Reach Lords with out rebellion.

Robert needed to reward his supporters, none of his supporters were from the Reach or Dorne.

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:18 AM, Adam Yozza said:

Even Stannis, the walking embodiment of duty in Westeros,

eh?

That is clearly not the case. He knew of a plot against his brother the king and stayed silent. That guy only cares about duties when it benefits him.

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:18 AM, Adam Yozza said:

 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, they did so on behalf of Cat.

Nah bro. I just quoted and bolded it for you. Uno mas? 

Quote

"In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him

They did it on behalf of King Robert and the good lords they serve.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cat is not a Lord, she is the wife of a Lord. She has no authority in the Riverlands, if she had arrested Tyrion in the North, where she has been made Castellan, she could.

Tarly has been granted authority by the King to do so. When did Robert or Ned grant Cat the same authority?

Possibly. A Castellan, to my understanding, is acting boss. Thusly responsible for ensuring justice in the kings realm.

But thats irrelevant. Cat did not use her title to arrest Tyrion. She used the men and knights of Whent, Bracken and Frey (Well, tried to use Frey) to arrest Tyrion and the authority of Lord Robert for judgment.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Furthermore she has no evidence that a crime has actually been committed. No evidence that Tyrion was responsible for this possible crime.

Course she does dude. Scars on her hand and the knife that Petyr called Lannister, without any objection from the Kings master of whisperers.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He doesn't? Can you quote him on this?

Again; I just did, see above. But once more for good luck? 

Quote

"Catelyn  had good reason for taking the Imp - "

"I said, I will not have  it! To hell with her reasons.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion does not think for one moment he was lawfully arrested

All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction.    

 

And even at the Wall they don't think Cat was legally in the right

The Old Bear shrugged. "A boy king … I imagine he'll listen to his mother. A pity the dwarf isn't with them. He's the lad's uncle, and he saw our need when he visited us. It was a bad thing, your lady mother taking him captive—"

No one in the series, not the King, not Tyrion not Jorah, close ally of the Starks or even Ned himself think that Cat was in the right.

lol she just arrested the King's brother-in-law on the spur of the moment. She was not planning on doing it she overreacted and realized she fucked up a short time later.

Hes a spiteful little creature

And nobody wants to see two great lords in a pissing contest, itll kill mad people.

And obviously Cats upset, its killing mad people.

Also, Brans attempt remains unpunished, somewhere out there is an attempted murderer.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If Cat was in the right why does Ned preemptively lie about the situation?

Idk, maybe because hes a fucking moran. Who knows? Lying is easy when it comes to Neds family, hes been lying for Lyanna since she died (or not killing children while Theons in the corner like Reek, or saying look in a mans eyes if he doesnt deserve death the dont kill them, and then kills the crow for the crime of running away from the other)