Fair Compensation for House Frey

[Impbread]

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not sure that is true. Each time Harrenhal was given away the lands seem to be reduced with its other lands given away.

House Reyne was the most powerful vassal in the Westerlands, his vassals still existed, they will have been sworn to other Houses rather than remain independent, Most likely the Presters and Marbrands, Tywin's cousins and allies  in that war, will have picked up extra lands as a reward.

I very much doubt the Spicers are the second most powerful House in the Westerlands.

D'oh. Meant Walder.

 

You are a little bit. You are confusing Ned sticking up for his wife with him making the same decision in her place, he clearly would not otherwise he would have already ordered Tyrion's arrest. 

At the time Ned  did not have the evidence that she had. (The knife). If he did and was led to believe that it was Tyrion’s you don’t think he would do the same or worse? One of the characters even states that Ned is not the kind of man that would forget an attempt on his sons life. What do you think he would do? Just curious.

 

Why didn't they? Ned was the Hand, it was in his power to order Tyrion's arrest as soon as Cat told him her suspicions. He did not.

 You don’t th8 k. More importantly, he lied to the King about it. He clearly did not think Cat was in the right, and nor did the King himself.

You mean when he lied. Why would be need to lie to the king if what Cat did was allowed?

You are confusing a husband trying to protect his wife and take the blame for her mistake with him supporting the indecent.

 

Robert did deal with it, he ordered the Imp released. Just because he dealt with it in a way that supports my argument and refutes yours does not mean he did not deal with it.

Nah Robert didn’t deal with anything...ever.Except squash rebellion.

Right, how does that make it legal?

 

Hoster would probably rebel for his daughter as well, that does not make it legal. You are clearly missing the point here. We are talking about the legality of the situation, Cat was not in the right.

If it was so illegal why wasn’t house Stark punished in some way be the king?

Perhaps if she had got her father's permission to do so she would have a case, she did not. Lying about having her father's permission does not make it any more legal.

I don’t think arresting someone you think is guilty of attempted murder and giving him a trial  is illegal. 

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Impbread]

On 6/18/2019 at 10:53 AM, the trees have eyes said:

And yet all the retainers in the Inn answer her call.  She accuses him of attempted murder and they all respond to that.  They must know something you don't.

Without any accusation, without any scars on her hands to convince the bystanders of the case she made you might be able to call it kidnapping but it's an arrest and she publicly explains the grounds for the arrest - attempted murder - before ordering them to take him into custody.

Robert considered it a problem he didn't want to have to face up to and like all his problems he just wanted it to go away as soon as possible.  He didn't even listen to Ned's attempted explanation as to why Catelyn took Tyrion, he just brushed it aside.

Robert's disinterest in bothering with troublesome matters of justice as with all troubling matters of kingship is not a compelling legal argument, it's an argument for his negligence or incompetence.

She arrested him in Robert's name and explained the reason for the arrest.  That's fairly routine behavior for dealing with criminals.  The only rub is of course that Tyrion is innocent but she arrests him pending trial, arrest and trial being equally parts of the system of justice.

No one can abduct anyone legally under any circumstances so let's not confuse an arbitrary seizure of an individual - say, Lady Hornwood by Ramsay Bolton - with the arrest of a criminal suspect.

Well, sort of.  The king is supposed to be the apex of the legal system and the ultimate guarantor and arbiter of justice but nothing stops a king doing a shitty job of that or completely ignoring the law if he finds it inconvenient or too troublesome to follow.  I've stated my opinion on Robert's actions above and it's not that Cat is wrong to arrest a man accused of murder, it's that he doesn't want to have to deal with a problem. 

He is not remotely interested in what Ned has to say and is probably completely unaware that Tyrion is accused of attempting to kill Ned's son.  If he is aware then his response is even more negligent because he does absolutely nothing to try and determine the facts and to see justice done. 

So it's nothing to do with the law or justice, it's all about Robert waving away a problem so he can get on with the next banquet or hunt or affair.

I don't think so.  Ned is caught unawares as this is not what he and Cat had planned.  He is attempting to regain control of the situation by owning the arrest and explaining what grounds Catelyn had for apprehending Tyrion, hoping to be able to appeal to deal with the situation with Robert directly.  However it's something Robert does not care to hear and buggers off hunting hoping the problem will have gone away by the time he gets back.

Oh, she had a right to arrest him.  He should have been detained in comfort rather than the sky cell at the Eyrie but that is on Lysa, not Cat.

She took him to the Eyrie as otherwise he would have been seized by force.  Quite why Lannister forces would have been able to overtake her if she headed for Winterfell or Riverrun is a plot device but she wanted to gain Lysa's evidence at the same time.

Not taking him to KL is borne out by Robert's approach to the whole incident which is to not give a shit about justice and hope it all goes away.  She needs Lysa's evidence to be able to force even a drunken oaf like Robert to actually uphold the laws he is supposed to care about and dispense justice even when it's difficult.

Well if it wasn't clear: the point is that Cat is invested with authority due to Ned's appointment as Hand of the King.  She is now his regent in the North and has full plenipotentiary powers to exercise justice in his stead, powers delegated by Robert to Ned and by Ned to her.  This is the matter of whether she has any legal right to make arrests and exercise authority.

It's true that she is in the Riverlands rather than the North and the men around are not her oathsmen and so are not bound to obey her.  But they are her father's oathsmen which makes an appeal to his retainers from one of his blood (and touching an attempted murder of his grandson) as good as a command.  Only the Freys demure (as if the author was trying to tell us something about them).  For the rest Cat's commands are as good as they would be at Winterfell and only Hoster, Edmure or their own liege lords could intervene or countermand them.

The laws are the same throughout the realm and the resident nobility enforce them.  Either the Lady / Lord of the lands the inn is in or some representative of them is summoned to conduct the arrest or someone acts in their place: in this case a daughter of Hoster Tully arrests him and cites King Robert as her ultimate authority.

Ned is deflecting Robert's ire on to himself as he is at hand and can better manage Robert if Robert is focused on him.  As he is present he can explain things rather than having Cat's actions a mystery and some arbitrary inexplicable brigandage.  This is about managing Robert not about legal arguments.  But stuff like that is too hard for Robert to face up to so he sticks his fingers in his ears, wallops Cersei, curse Ned and goes hunting.

It's not irrational though, it's a deliberate and carefully reasoned decision though one that had to be made quickly.

What she feared was that Tyrion would alert the twins to her secret visit and plot or even strike against Ned with him all unaware of her visit being discovered, the sort of mayhem he might accomplish being clear in her mind with the attack on Bran, to say nothing of what he might achieve in cahoots with his siblings.  What she hoped was to forestall that danger to Ned and neutralize Tyrion's threat by taking him out of play and that by travelling to the Eyrie she would obtain useful evidence from Lysa against the Lannisters concerning the murder of Jon Arryn to supplement her (false and planted) evidence against Tyrion for the attack on Bran.

Does Robert even know what Tyrion is accused of?  "Damn her reasons" is his response to Ned's attempt to explain.  Robert's response is everything to do with being presented with a problem he doesn't want to deal with and overruling her without any interest in knowing what is happening.  Equally does Ned think it "illegal" or inopportune? Ned's response is all about the fact that it is too soon and that they do not have the evidence - or are assured that Robert will want to know and act on the truth - and to do with crisis management and dealing with Robert directly, an appeal to Nedbert.  Let's not forget that Ned's men were killed around him and his own leg shattered, that he was unconscious for days and that he is too weak to get out of bed when Robert comes to see him: he's thinking on his feet and trying to find the best way of getting Robert out of Cersei's clutches and to counter for the days that Cersei has had to whisper in his ear so he owns Cat's action and tries to explain it.

The story doesn't really need to give us didactic examples outside the plot but if a widow can exercise power as a regent for her son (Cersei) or a wife act as a regent for her husband (Catelyn) then it follows that in his absence (temporary or permanent) a wife can wield her husband's authority.  Selyse acting in Stannis's name at The Wall for example.

If you want an example of a noblewoman seizing someone then take Lady Tarbeck capturing Stafford Lannister in retaliation for Tytos Lannister detaining her husband.  Of course that incident was a genuine kidnapping, was completely illegal and was purely designed to secure a bargaining chip but no one disputed her authority as a mere "wife" rather than a surrogate authority for her husband.

Thank you. I could not have said it better. Arresting someone you think is guilty of attempted murder is not kidnapping. As you stated Robert did not state it was illegal. He just.slithered out of the situation by telling Ned to release Tyrion because he did not want to deal with it.

[The Hoare]

52 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

What you are really saying is that the king can get away with ignoring or flat out breaking the law up to a point. 

By default, the King can't break his own laws.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 6/19/2019 at 4:45 PM, Gerg Sknab said:

Frey's compensation is laid out by Tywin Lannister and Frey accepted it. Lannister had previously made agreement with Roose Bolton setting out Frey compensation,. The reality is that Bolton and Baelish are the power and Frey is in effect vassal holding three  castles. Shucks Frey's compensation makes him less of an influence what with the Spicers and the Westerlings taking profitable castles on easily fordable forks. Frey had to agree to Bolton marrying the Frey daughter of his choice thereby guaranteeing Bolton a profitable marriage at the cost of Walder Frey. 

Whoever made the observation earlier of Roose being vulnerable if Robb Stark comes out alive is absolutely correct.  Roose Bolton was in a weak position until he got Tywin and Walder on his side.  Roose Bolton had been undermining the Starks from the get go.  That truth will out sooner or later and his head will come off.  He had to cut a deal with Tywin and Walder.  Roose had to make sure the Starks fall. 

I don't consider Jaime a smart man but even he knew this.  He knew Roose had a nasty surprise for the Starks when Roose helped him escape at Harrenhal.  Jaime knew something like the red wedding was coming for the Starks and Robb's days are numbered.  Jaime Lannister sends his regards.  Indeed.

Walder needed to loose a daughter or two.  The deal was useful for he and Roose.  Nobody lost on that deal.  And the silver.  Walder has plenty.  Roose is poor by comparison.  The silver was a mega fortune for a northman.  The dowry made him wealthy.  Walder could easily afford what he paid.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Impbread said:

Thank you. I could not have said it better. Arresting someone you think is guilty of attempted murder is not kidnapping. As you stated Robert did not state it was illegal. He just.slithered out of the situation by telling Ned to release Tyrion because he did not want to deal with it.

I agree, that was a great post by @the trees have eyes. I think part of the issue is that some judge Cat based on information we, the readers, have but she doesn't. Another point that will always be discussed is, "was Cat acting within her rights/the 'legality' of her actions. And as I've said before, I think the way the many men-at-arms at the Inn react is the big clue. IMO. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

By default, the King can't break his own laws.

Some or many of these laws won't be the king's, but his predecessors'. Can he break those then?

[Impbread]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Some or many of these laws won't be the king's, but his predecessors'. Can he break those then?

Har! I think you have him there.

[The Hoare]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Some or many of these laws won't be the king's, but his predecessors'. Can he break those then?

Obviously. Joffrey dismiss Ser Barristan even though the KG used to be for life.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't know what more the Freys should be compensated for. They committed heinous crimes and were rewarded for them.

They got Edmure. They were given Riverrun and two Lannister marriages with Lancel and Daven whose father was negotiating a marriage to Desmera Redwyne before he died.

Fat Walda's children will have a claim to the Dreadfort. And they were looking to marry into House Manderly in ADwD.

I think it's more than enough for a broken betrothal. 

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Some or many of these laws won't be the king's, but his predecessors'. Can he break those then?

Name the laws Robert is breaking and we can further discuss it.

Right now we know that Cat broke Robert's law. Ned did not think his wife was in the right and lied to cover her ass. Clearly when both the King and the Hand think you've broken the law then you've broken the law.

 

6 hours ago, Impbread said:

 

I assume that post is to me but the formatting is a mess and I can't work out what it says. Happy to reply to it when you've fixed it.

[Aldarion]

On 6/10/2019 at 6:47 AM, The Hoare said:

Their duty to the king is above any oath made to any traitor lord.

The freys should be hanged, yes, but not for "betraying" the Tullys/Starks but for murdering a guest, and that's all.

This is medieval feudal society, not 10th century Roman Empire. While what you say may be true *in theory*, in practice, duty to immediate superior often comes first. Legally, I think choosing either of the liege lords is fine, though somebody should check 15th century English laws as that is what I think Westeros is based on.

That being said, Freys lost *right to live* after breaking the guest right, let alone right to any compensation. OTOH, up to their betrayal they *were* the wronged party, and should have been compensated for. In fact, that is precisely what Robb attempted; but was his offer enough? Walder Frey definitely didn't think so.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Name the laws Robert is breaking and we can further discuss it.

Where did I say he was? 

[Impbread]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Name the laws Robert is breaking and we can further discuss it.

Right now we know that Cat broke Robert's law. Ned did not think his wife was in the right and lied to cover her ass. Clearly when both the King and the Hand think you've broken the law then you've broken the law.

 

I assume that post is to me but the formatting is a mess and I can't work out what it says. Happy to reply to it when you've fixed it.

Sorry was on phone

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Ok Cat was in the inn, incognito and trying to rest/eat before heading home to Bran/Robb. The Smart-Ass Lannister Imp has to open his mouth and endangered her life. This war was all on the Lannister’s and Walder Frey was an Oath Breaker to defending his liege lord.

Queen Cersei and her brother sowed the seeds to this bitter harvest when they did The Almost Unconchiable and imbred those bastards and tried to pass them off as King Roberts’

There is also strong indication that Robb and Jeyne May have been love potioned when he was wounded and bed ridden at The Crag.

the Frey’s we’re never going to reconcile with Robb because Stannis lost The battle of The Blackwater and the tyrells and Lannister we’re now aligned and The Ironborn held Winterfell and a third of the North.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 6/20/2019 at 5:46 AM, Br16 said:

You mistake what I was saying. I said in my post that the Frey's ought to either sincerely honor their oaths to their Liege or to the King based on a sincere assessment of the two arguments. His obvious disrespect and disregard for both, and opportunistic double dealing is the sellswordish behavior I was referring to. 

He should have honored his oath to King Aerys Targaryens, second of his name. 

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Ok Cat was in the inn, incognito and trying to rest/eat before heading home to Bran/Robb. The Smart-Ass Lannister Imp has to open his mouth and endangered her life.

How exactly did Tyrion endanger her life? That's quite the leap of logic right there.

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

 

This war was all on the Lannister’s

No, not all. The Starks, Lannisters, Barathtons and Littlefinger all contributed.

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

 

and Walder Frey was an Oath Breaker to defending his liege lord.

True. He's also have been an oath breaker if he allowed a invading Northern army to use his bridge. He's an oath breaker regardless.

Robb's also an oath breaker. Not sure why people get so hung up on breaking oaths as when ever there is a war almost everyone is breaking an oath of some kind.

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Queen Cersei and her brother sowed the seeds to this bitter harvest when they did The Almost Unconchiable and imbred those bastards and tried to pass them off as King Roberts’

They didn't try, the succeeded. But yeah, no one is denying that Cersei and Jaime contributed.

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

There is also strong indication that Robb and Jeyne May have been love potioned when he was wounded and bed ridden at The Crag.

No, you are confused. There is no 'strong indications' there is a conspiracy theory.

I get that people hate blaming Robb for his shitty decision making, but he was 16, well capable of making silly mistakes.

If the Westerlings controlled him why not have him sue for peace?

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

the Frey’s we’re never going to reconcile with Robb because Stannis lost The battle of The Blackwater and the tyrells and Lannister we’re now aligned and The Ironborn held Winterfell and a third of the North.

I actually agree with this. There would be no Red Wedding though, but Walder and many other Lords 'sworn' to Robb would have began to back away from him after the Battle of Blackwater. He could not win at that point.

[Son of Man]

1. High toll on everything and everyone coming from the north over the bridge.  
2. 25% of all Stark lands to the Freys.
3. 25% of all Tully lands to the Freys.
4. Edmure will marry a daughter before receiving help from the Freys.
5. Catelyn will marry a son of Walder's before he sends help to the Starks.

[Wolf's Bane]

On 6/11/2019 at 10:49 AM, Gerg Sknab said:

HUH? where do you do you come up with Jeyne Westerling as Frey compensation, it is made pretty clear that it is westerling compensation nothing to do with Freys and in the same vane in the same chapter it is made clear that it is a Frey fallacy regarding Greywind's death considering Raynald freed him a Jon chapter and a Bran chapter in Adwd confirm that fact. 

The Freys should want any possible future child between Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling dead, if for no other reason than it is a mark of the Stark's betrayal of his house.  

[the trees have eyes]

On 6/20/2019 at 10:02 PM, The Hoare said:

By default, the King can't break his own laws.

Still equating tyranny with kingship it seems.  Aerys thought he was above the law too.  Having the power to get away with breaking the law, whether your own recent edicts or laws handed down from time immemorial, is not a legal argument or the operating principle of a legal system, it's an abuse of power.  It goes on until someone with more power deposes you.

Robert breaking or ignoring laws - or not being able to in your view - does not offer any useful information as to whether Cat's actions were legal or not.  Quite obviously the only reason we are having this conversation at all is based on Tyrion's social status and the political ramifications of arresting him.  If Cat had arrested Joe Bloggs the miller's son or pursued the assassin from Winterfell and arrested him in the Inn no one would be arguing that it's illegal.  An argument based on power politics raises many genuine considerations but not those of legality.

On 6/21/2019 at 12:39 AM, The Hoare said:

Obviously. Joffrey dismiss Ser Barristan even though the KG used to be for life.

By custom the KG serve for life, there is no law that requires it.  The vow from KG is a vow like from retainer to lord, or in this case vassal to king to serve him in a particular capacity.  Joffrey released Barristan from his vow and dismissed him from his service.  That's a precedent, it's not a crime.

[Aurane]

It depends if you're talking about before the Red Wedding. Perhaps Robb could have offered Darry, Harrenhall, and the hand of one of his sisters once the war was done. The main issue is that the tides were turning against him, so I think that the only way that he could really secure their support would be to win sound victories. I think that the Red Wedding is justifiable, but not justified, if that makes any sense.