Darth Sidious Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 There is already a poll asking whether the red wedding was justified. I want to do something different and instead ask what you feel is fair compensation to House Frey for Robb's betrayal. Be fair-minded about this. Even the most devout Stark supporter cannot excuse what Robb Stark did to the Freys. He dragged them into a war. I will add that it was a stupid war. The Starks chose to light the fuse for no better reason than to find the person who tried to kill ONE LITTLE BOY. The Freys did not start this war. Robb Stark arrived at their doorstep and gave them a bitter choice. Lord Walder Frey did what any shrewd man would do. He can't avoid getting mixed up in this war. He did what any smart man would do and negotiated a deal. What do you consider is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys after Robb broke his oath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Oh I'm sure house Frey will get what's coming to them. Not sure whether it will be Arya, Sansa, Jon, Lady Stoneheart, Nymeria or someone else entirely who delivers it. But they will get their just rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Robb didn’t drag them into anything. They were not upholding their oaths to their liege lord, Hoster Tully and should have been hanged as oathbreakers, rather than be rewarded with a marriage offer in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Makk said: Oh I'm sure house Frey will get what's coming to them. Not sure whether it will be Arya, Sansa, Jon, Lady Stoneheart, Nymeria or someone else entirely who delivers it. But they will get their just rewards. And Brynden Rivers says in the Mystery Knight: "You have my leave to go as well, Lord Frey," Rivers commanded. "We will speak again later." "As my lord commands." Frey led his son* from the pavilion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Robb didn’t drag them into anything. They were not upholding their oaths to their liege lord, Hoster Tully and should have been hanged as oathbreakers, rather than be rewarded with a marriage offer in the first place. Their duty to the king is above any oath made to any traitor lord. The freys should be hanged, yes, but not for "betraying" the Tullys/Starks but for murdering a guest, and that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, The Hoare said: Their duty to the king is above any oath made to any traitor lord. The freys should be hanged, yes, but not for "betraying" the Tullys/Starks but for murdering a guest, and that's all. Well that position condemns all the rebels to death then. But wait a second, it then condemns Robert himself to death then for rebelling against Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Just now, Free Northman Reborn said: Well that position condemns all the rebels to death then. But wait a second, it then condemns Robert himself to death then for rebelling against Aerys. Yes, it does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 58 minutes ago, The Hoare said: Their duty to the king is above any oath made to any traitor lord. The freys should be hanged, yes, but not for "betraying" the Tullys/Starks but for murdering a guest, and that's all. Tully called the banners while Robert was alive and the Riverlands raided. The call was perfectly lawful at the time. Walder had no excuse, he could have hanged for that alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, The Sleeper said: Tully called the banners while Robert was alive and the Riverlands raided. The call was perfectly lawful at the time. Walder had no excuse, he could have hanged for that alone. Do we even know that the Freys were summoned to hunt Ser Gregor Clegane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, The Hoare said: Do we even know that the Freys were summoned to hunt Ser Gregor Clegane? The Riverlands were being raided and Tywin had called his banners. Edmure had done the same. It should have been about the time the Riverlords appealed to Ned to hunt down Gregor. Walder was an oath breaker before he ever showed up on page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, The Hoare said: Do we even know that the Freys were summoned to hunt Ser Gregor Clegane? Edmure called the banners because Tywin was gathering a host, not to hunt Gregor. In fact, Gregor’s attacks happen AFTER Edmure calls the banners and this is why those towns were defenseless. Even Walder himself says he gathered his men because he was ordered but makes up an excuse he was waiting for his full strength to be gathered, but by then Edmure was captured. As for Gregor, the Trio, Vance, Piper and Darry, tell Eddard their towns were undefended because they answered Edmure’s call. Walder was an oathbreaker through and through, but let’s say he was just unfortunate enough to seem like an oathbreaking oppurtunist not once but twice and Robb must compensate, well, a marriage with Edmure is compensation enough but let’s add Blackfish and some other highborn both from the North and the RL and also since house Darry only has a bastard cousin as a male member, give him those lands and marry one of the granddaughters to him as well. Bracken also has no male heir and many daughters and Blackwood has several sons. There’s a great oppurtunity here,; Robb can make several marriages between Blackwoods, Freys and Brackens, raise a few new houses with new names from some of the disputed land to act as a buffer between Blackwood and Bracken and the daughter inheriting Stonehedge will get to keep her name like the Lannister-Lydden marriage. Dispute ends once and for all, Frey gets at least one son landed and perhaps some daughters married to lords/landed knights. Bracken name lives on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 The actual deal was pretty fair as it was like for like. The broken deal was a marriage between a Frey and, at the time of the betrothal, Lord Paramount (or heir at least). They were offered the same following the broken betrothal. Some other perks for hurt feelings could have also been appropriate, and an alternative to the Arya betrothal would be sensible given she was missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br16 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 I feel the Freys deserve some compensation, and I do agree that the Starks are self righteous. But the Red Wedding was in no way justified. By violating guest right, the Freys caused damage from Dorne to the Wall, and for small folk and noble alike. Hospitality was sacred because anyone who was traveling or trading would often need to lodge at the house or holdfast of strangers. However, given the fragile nature of pre modern law enforcement, only the sacrosanct nature of the Host/Guest relationship allowed for trust between strangers. Once this is broken (such as RW), suddenly people will be a lot less willing to help travelers in need, and traders will probably trade a lot less because the world has suddenly become less secure and hospitable. In other words, this little stunt probably knocked even more points off the GDP than straight up war. Moreover, the Frey's were Vassal lords not sell swords. They aren't supposed to bargain like Bronn. The price of the title is that they must honor their oaths. If Walder Frey felt that Robb was a rebel dragging the realm into conflict, then he should side with Tywin and used his 4000 men to hold the twins until the Lannister Host arrived. Lords don't get to complain about random war landing on their doorstep because the whole purpose of Feudal Lordship is that they stand ready to defend whenever conflict crops up in their sector for whatever reason. Walter Frey's lack of a sense of duty means that he did karmically deserve to suffer some oath breaking. However, since Robb did break an oath, I feel that the Edmure/Rosalind marriage was reasonable recompense, as truth be told, the Tully's should show Walder some respect even if they are upstarts since they were their most powerful Bannerman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Robb didn't drag them into anything. They were oathbound to honour Edmure's call to arms and did not do so. So they shouldn't have been given any sort of deal anyway. But besides that, a marriage between a Frey and Edmure is exactly equal to the deal they had in the first place. A marriage to an LP. For the sake of hurt feelings, arrange a Frey marriage to a Bracken, a Blackwood, Wendel Manderly, maybe an Umber. Or just agree that Robb's firstborn would marry a Frey of similar age and opposite sex. Give Darry to Merrett Frey and give Black Walder Harrenhal (it'd probably kill him off soon enough anyway). A reasonable man couldn't turn up his nose at that. But then Walder isn't really a reasonable man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 12 hours ago, Anti-Stark said: There is already a poll asking whether the red wedding was justified. I want to do something different and instead ask what you feel is fair compensation to House Frey for Robb's betrayal. Be fair-minded about this. Even the most devout Stark supporter cannot excuse what Robb Stark did to the Freys. He dragged them into a war. I will add that it was a stupid war. The Starks chose to light the fuse for no better reason than to find the person who tried to kill ONE LITTLE BOY. The Freys did not start this war. Robb Stark arrived at their doorstep and gave them a bitter choice. Lord Walder Frey did what any shrewd man would do. He can't avoid getting mixed up in this war. He did what any smart man would do and negotiated a deal. What do you consider is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys after Robb broke his oath? Lord Frey did what a greedy man would do, demand Robb marry into his family (and Arya too) as the price of his aid. A shrewd man would have simply kept his drawbridge raised as his position was impregnable, a fact Robb and his commanders recognised. Nonetheless the compensation for Robb breaking his vow and marrying Jeyne Westerling seems met by Edmure agreeing to marry one of Walder's daughters in Robb's place. Edmure is after all Walder's liege Lord and the marriage makes Walder's grandson the heir to Riverrun. Given the circumstances the dowry might be waived or even provided by Robb as a show of contrition as the Starks, Tullys and Freys are united in one big happy family. Robb didn't actually drag the Riverlands into war you know: Tywin had loosed his armies on them long before Robb marched down the Causeway and relieved Riverrun. Walder was the only River Lord who refused Hoster Tully's call to arms - and remember Robet Barratheon is King and Tywin Lannister merely a rebel Lord when he decided to ignore his liege lord's summons - so Walder is an oathbreaker who is only prised out from behind his walls by his own self-interest (advantageous marriages). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 12 hours ago, Anti-Stark said: There is already a poll asking whether the red wedding was justified. I want to do something different and instead ask what you feel is fair compensation to House Frey for Robb's betrayal. Be fair-minded about this. Even the most devout Stark supporter cannot excuse what Robb Stark did to the Freys. He dragged them into a war. I will add that it was a stupid war. The Starks chose to light the fuse for no better reason than to find the person who tried to kill ONE LITTLE BOY. The Freys did not start this war. Robb Stark arrived at their doorstep and gave them a bitter choice. Lord Walder Frey did what any shrewd man would do. He can't avoid getting mixed up in this war. He did what any smart man would do and negotiated a deal. What do you consider is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys after Robb broke his oath? I'm sure lands and gold and future marriages were part of the bargain, starting with Lancel and Amy. But I disagree that the Starks went to war over Bran. That happened long before the war started. The first to raise an army was Tywin in response to the abduction of Tyrion, which, of course, stemmed from Bran. But Robb's decision to call his banners and march south came in response to Ned's arrest and eventual execution. So I would say that Bran is all part of this mix, but there were other factors as well. If anyone lit the fuse here, it was Joffrey, probably at the direction of Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 7 hours ago, The Sleeper said: The Riverlands were being raided and Tywin had called his banners. Edmure had done the same. It should have been about the time the Riverlords appealed to Ned to hunt down Gregor. Walder was an oath breaker before he ever showed up on page. But Tywin had the moral ground for attacking the Riverlands. Catelyn and quite a few riverlanders unlawfully kidnapped Tyrion. From Tywin's point of view, it was the Riverlands breaking the King's peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, The Hoare said: But Tywin had the moral ground for attacking the Riverlands. Catelyn and quite a few riverlanders unlawfully kidnapped Tyrion. From Tywin's point of view, it was the Riverlands breaking the King's peace. Catelyn was acting Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North. Ned approved the arrest as Hand of the King. When Robert was informed he ordered Tyrion's release and for the matter to subside. In this matter neither Ned nor Robert, who both outrank Tywin, gave him leave to call his banners or raid the Riverlands. There is no such thing as Tywin's point of view from a legal standpoint. Tyrion was arrested on the Hand's authority and released on the King's. Tywin had no business or legal right calling his banners and redressing the matter himself, as he knew perfectly well, which is why he had Clegane raid without a banner, in order to provoke a retaliation and have some legal pretext to invade. As such, Edmure calling his banners was perfectly legit and Walder should have been there. It isn't like its claimed otherwise. His excuse to Catelyn is him telling her to go fuck herself. That whole chapter is quite telling, particularly how he describes his own oath as "some words". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Sleeper said: Tywin had no business or legal right calling his banners and redressing the matter himself, as he knew perfectly well, which is why he had Clegane raid without a banner, in order to provoke a retaliation and have some legal pretext to invade. As warden of the west Tywin had excuse to call his banners. After all "someone" had just kidnapped queen's brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Frey compensation so the deaths of Rhaegar, Jarred, Symon, Ryman, Aegon, Cleos, Marrett, Aneys , Little Walder, Petyr Pimple plus others I can't think of Oylvar as Robb' squire, Elmar as Ayra's potential husband Roslin wife of dipshit Tully,Fat Walda wife of Roose Bolton, Emmon lord of Riverrun seems to me pretty fair compensation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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