The Hoare Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: By custom the KG serve for life, there is no law that requires it Westeros laws are based on customs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 On 6/21/2019 at 3:59 PM, Bernie Mac said: How exactly did Tyrion endanger her life? That's quite the leap of logic right there. No, not all. The Starks, Lannisters, Barathtons and Littlefinger all contributed. True. He's also have been an oath breaker if he allowed a invading Northern army to use his bridge. He's an oath breaker regardless. Robb's also an oath breaker. Not sure why people get so hung up on breaking oaths as when ever there is a war almost everyone is breaking an oath of some kind. They didn't try, the succeeded. But yeah, no one is denying that Cersei and Jaime contributed. No, you are confused. There is no 'strong indications' there is a conspiracy theory. I get that people hate blaming Robb for his shitty decision making, but he was 16, well capable of making silly mistakes. If the Westerlings controlled him why not have him sue for peace? I actually agree with this. There would be no Red Wedding though, but Walder and many other Lords 'sworn' to Robb would have began to back away from him after the Battle of Blackwater. He could not win at that point. Tyrion endangered her life by exposing a very High born woman who is married to the Hand of the King. Prime Hostage material. She was lightly protected and keeping a low profile. Tyrion was smarter than that and reflected such in the POV when he did it. None of this would have happened if Cersei and Jaime had not done the incest dance with success x 3. Tyrion even knew about it as he reveals in Book 2. There were other Nasty contributors like LF, Varys etc, yes but This was Lannister family started. Yes, they are the bad guys, even in a grey world such as this one. Walder Frey was always and is always in it for himself and his family. I actually do admire that he wants a life for all of his children. He wants them all married and with a future. I see that in him. He wants no one left out but "The Late Walder Frey" dishonored himself at the Trident for showing up with is men when the battle was done. He was not exactly a rebellious lord to his liege, House Tully but is was unfaithful all the time. The Freys were not thought well of long before The Red Wedding. Robb broke his Oath to marry a daughter or grand daughter of house Frey but like I said, it is there. There was some love potioning that went on. Maggy the Frog's Grandaughter is Sybella Westerling, Jeyne's mother and she was conspiring with Tywin. George rehabilitated Robb's honor by this information. Oaths are a serious thing but there were negotiations conducted by Robb and the Freys on how to make amends. Now, we know the Freys planned the wedding but there was an agreement and Robb fulfilled his agreement and so did his bannermen that offered marriages or were there to do so. Robb did not want a Bastard son as he saw what Jon Snow went through. He realized he took a virgin's blood and he was also drugged with the potion. It is your right to disagree with the love potion part but go back and yes, it is all but implied, just like Renly never had a sex moment pov with Ser Loras but it is known what he was and what they were together. Robb was madly in love with Jeyne, not a zombie or a robot. She was his Queen and they were trying to start a family. By this time, the incest info was all around Westeros. Tywin is known for exterminating rival families and he tried to make peace when Tyrion was Hand. Tyrion knew his family was the true traitors but he was always in it for his share of the pie. The Lannisters were false through and through. No sense in negotiating with people like that. Yeah, agreed. The results of the Battle of the Blackwater solidified The lannisters and the Bastards on The Iron Throne and Robb was cut off from the North and his power base. He was sort of trapped and he needed to roost The Iron Born out of the North. He had to cross The Twins to get back home. Robb was the last of the Starks save Sansa and she was a captured bride. Roose Bolton took his opportunity and made his move. It is times like that when the dishonorable with make their moves. It was a matter of time before a combined Tyrell-Lannister army met him and he was doomed if they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbynature Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 On 6/10/2019 at 4:03 AM, Anti-Stark said: What do you consider is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys after Robb broke his oath? What is a fair compensation? A compensation that has the same worth for the contractual partner as the previously negotiated price if that could not be paid. The negotiated price was, that Walder Freys grandgrandchild becomes King/Queen of the north and the riverlands. This was at least the price that had to be paid, plus an extra because of the degradation of house Frey because of the broken promise. So there were few options. What is enough? 1. The unborn heir of Robb and Jayne has to marry a member of hause Frey. As this is far in the future, and there is distrust because of a already broken marriage promise, it is not enough. 2. Hause Frey has to become the overlords of their own subkingdom wich had to be created from parts of the riverlands and the north or of the riverlands as a whole. As you see, this would create new problems. Its a price that can not be paid. But I do´nt see any less than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 On 6/25/2019 at 8:31 PM, The Hoare said: Westeros laws are based on customs You make blanket statements that overly simplify more complex or variable situations. Some customs have the force of law, others don't. A vow from KG to king cannot be broken by the KG without him being an oathbreaker and a traitor but the king can release the KG from his vow and his service without breaking any vow (he made none) or any law (there is none). The fact that no one did this before makes it a precedent but there is nothing to prevent it. Custom in this case is how people have done things before, rather than a law or vow that exists to require or prohibit a certain course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Tyrion endangered her life by exposing a very High born woman who is married to the Hand of the King. How? Why should the wife of the Hand and the daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands be worried about being recognized in the Riverlands. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Prime Hostage material. She was lightly protected and keeping a low profile. Tyrion was smarter than that and reflected such in the POV when he did it. How is that Tyrion's fault? How is he supposed to know this? Tyrion was also lightly protected When does Cat complain about this? You do realize you are inventing reasons Cat never gives. We know precisely why Cat takes Tyrion hostage and it is not because she was fearful of being took hostage herself. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: None of this would have happened if Cersei and Jaime had not done the incest dance with success x 3. No one is denying that. There was multiple causes for the war. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Tyrion even knew about it as he reveals in Book 2. There were other Nasty contributors like LF, Varys etc, yes but This was Lannister family started. Yes, they are the bad guys, even in a grey world such as this one. And the Starks also contributed. Many people contributed to the war. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Walder Frey was always and is always in it for himself and his family. Yup. No one has ever denied this. I'd imagine many Lords were the same, they certainly were in our own history. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: I actually do admire that he wants a life for all of his children. He wants them all married and with a future. I see that in him. He wants no one left out but "The Late Walder Frey" dishonored himself at the Trident for showing up with is men when the battle was done. He was not exactly a rebellious lord to his liege, House Tully but is was unfaithful all the time. The Freys were not thought well of long before The Red Wedding. Mostly by the Tullys. Hoster did not like the fact that Walder Frey has close relations to the Lords of the West. They were also looked down on because of their status as a fairly new House and due to them operating a successful business. The Freys are basically the middle ages Jews of Westeros. Other Lords resent them for their success. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Robb broke his Oath to marry a daughter or grand daughter of house Frey but like I said, it is there. There was some love potioning that went on. Not that we know. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Maggy the Frog's Grandaughter is Sybella Westerling, Jeyne's mother and she was conspiring with Tywin. George rehabilitated Robb's honor by this information. Oaths are a serious thing but there were negotiations conducted by Robb and the Freys on how to make amends. Now, we know the Freys planned the wedding but there was an agreement and Robb fulfilled his agreement and so did his bannermen that offered marriages or were there to do so. Robb's agreement was to marry a Frey, he did not fulfil that agreement. The Frey's fulfilled their part of the agreement, they allowed him access to their bridge and supported him at Riverrun. 14 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Robb did not want a Bastard son as he saw what Jon Snow went through. Again, hearsay. Robb never says he married Jeyne for that reason. And surely you are contradicting yourself, either he married due to the love potion or due to guilt. In one of your theories he has no say, in the other he does. Not only is there zero evidence for either but they actually contradict each other. Robb is responsible for his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: You make blanket statements that overly simplify more complex or variable situations. Some customs have the force of law, others don't. A vow from KG to king cannot be broken by the KG without him being an oathbreaker and a traitor but the king can release the KG from his vow and his service without breaking any vow (he made none) or any law (there is none). The fact that no one did this before makes it a precedent but there is nothing to prevent it. Custom in this case is how people have done things before, rather than a law or vow that exists to require or prohibit a certain course of action. What do you mean with "force of law"? Even the power of the King itself resides on tradition instead of written laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 4 hours ago, The Hoare said: What do you mean with "force of law"? Even the power of the King itself resides on tradition instead of written laws. Of course there are written laws. Renly is Master of Laws. That doesn't mean he makes it up as he goes along. Serving in the KG is bound by oath: to break that oath is both a crime and treason. To dismiss Barristan is a precedent but nothing more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: How? Why should the wife of the Hand and the daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands be worried about being recognized in the Riverlands. How is that Tyrion's fault? How is he supposed to know this? Tyrion was also lightly protected When does Cat complain about this? You do realize you are inventing reasons Cat never gives. We know precisely why Cat takes Tyrion hostage and it is not because she was fearful of being took hostage herself. No one is denying that. There was multiple causes for the war. And the Starks also contributed. Many people contributed to the war. Yup. No one has ever denied this. I'd imagine many Lords were the same, they certainly were in our own history. Mostly by the Tullys. Hoster did not like the fact that Walder Frey has close relations to the Lords of the West. They were also looked down on because of their status as a fairly new House and due to them operating a successful business. The Freys are basically the middle ages Jews of Westeros. Other Lords resent them for their success. Not that we know. Robb's agreement was to marry a Frey, he did not fulfil that agreement. The Frey's fulfilled their part of the agreement, they allowed him access to their bridge and supported him at Riverrun. Again, hearsay. Robb never says he married Jeyne for that reason. And surely you are contradicting yourself, either he married due to the love potion or due to guilt. In one of your theories he has no say, in the other he does. Not only is there zero evidence for either but they actually contradict each other. Robb is responsible for his actions. If you have read the books, it pretty much answers your questions. If you have, it may have been a while, it happens. I plan a reread when I know for sure WINDS is coming for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontius Pilate Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 On 6/11/2019 at 9:55 PM, Annalee said: The two sides need to have a little trust from each other to have any chance of a new pact. Walder (understandably in this case) can no longer trust Robb Stark. Anything Walder wants from the Starks have to be received in advance. Future promises from the Starks are worthless as it is. Robb was only interested in striking a new deal because he was brought low by the Greyjoys. He would otherwise have no interest in begging forgiveness from Walder and only did it because he needed Frey support. It was harsh but what Walder chose to do was right for his family. He owed nothing to the Starks after the disrespect they did to him and his family. Walder gets a lot of hate for breaking guest rights. I can only hope these Frey haters are not the same fans who are so more than willing to look the other way when Jon and Robb broke their oaths. Breaking guest rights and breaking oaths are both evil. It's inconsistent to condemn one and forgive the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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