Video Games: Keanu Re3ves Is Breathtaking

[Werthead]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Fancy Pants said:

Schreier is specifically my issue with Kotaku. 

Why? Because he reports about important things other than just how awesome the graphics are in the latest carefully-created piece of marketing fluff companies put out?

This idea that the video games industry should be exempt from the same working standards and analysis all other industries are is completely bizarre.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

 

This idea that the video games industry should be exempt from the same working standards and analysis all other industries are is completely bizarre.

Very true. And then you remember that a large portion of gamers are socially inept basement dwellers, and then it makes sense. 

[The Anti-Targ]

10 hours ago, Inkdaub said:

Well I finished my second play through of Horizon Zero Dawn.  I wasn't sure what I wanted to play next so I started a Witcher 3 replay and it's been good so far. 

I doubt I will play Cyberpunk at all because it's first person.  Hopefully people enjoy it, though.

I've played TW3 twice already (incorporating the DLCs 2nd time around), not hankering for a 3rd time. But I only played Horizon Zero Dawn once. How does it stack up 2nd time around? Thinking about the DLC for Horizon, any hot takes on it?

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Why? Because he reports about important things other than just how awesome the graphics are in the latest carefully-created piece of marketing fluff companies put out?

This idea that the video games industry should be exempt from the same working standards and analysis all other industries are is completely bizarre.

Like I said, I don't find his work (or any game journalist's) meaningful. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

56 minutes ago, Relic said:

Very true. And then you remember that a large portion of gamers are socially inept basement dwellers, and then it makes sense. 

Well, I don't have a basement, though if I did, I'd be down there all the time. 

[The Anti-Targ]

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/cyberpunk-2077-bundled-with-the-whole-witcher-fran/1100-6467621/

 

Quote

The CD Projekt-affiliated GOG is offering a special deal for pre-ordering Cyberpunk 2077 on PC that comes bundled with the developer's entire Witcher franchise for just $87.77. That of course includes complete editions of all three main Witcher RPGs, as well as Thronebreaker: The Witcher Tales and The Witcher Adventure Game, which are the Gwent card game spin-off and the digital adaptation of Fantasy Flight's board game, respectively.

Having said I'd give Cyberpunk a hard pass because it's FPS, I'm feeling awfully tempted to pre-order this bundle for all the non-Cyberpunk content it has on offer. And other people in my household do like FPS. Of course in NZ prices that's looking like $135, which is somewhat less of a draw card, since I already have the best Witcher game in the list.

[Inkdaub]

4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I've played TW3 twice already (incorporating the DLCs 2nd time around), not hankering for a 3rd time. But I only played Horizon Zero Dawn once. How does it stack up 2nd time around? Thinking about the DLC for Horizon, any hot takes on it?

Yeah I didn't play the DLCs for Witcher first time through either.  I plan to do them this time.  Horizon is probably my favorite game and I loved it the second time through.  I have not finished Frozen Wilds but I like it in a 'more Horizon stuff' way.  I don't finish because I can't face a world without a little bit of Horizon to play.  I like finding the animal statues but ignore the pigments.  I think if I play though a third time, which is likely but not for a while, I will hit Frozen Wilds before I finish up the main storyline.  Then I can play everything and the ending is still the ending.  

I want to play a Star Wars game but am not sure which to choose.  Fallen Order sounds good.

[The Anti-Targ]

6 hours ago, Relic said:

Very true. And then you remember that a large portion of gamers are socially inept basement dwellers, and then it makes sense. 

While that characterisation is truer than I'd like to admit, it's not the reason a lot of gamers don't want a light shined on the unpleasant parts of the industry. The real reason is the addiction.

[Relic]

4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

While that characterisation is truer than I'd like to admit, it's not the reason a lot of gamers don't want a light shined on the unpleasant parts of the industry. The real reason is the addiction.

That's also true. The Twitch/Reddit/4Chan echo chambers are another reason, of course. But it all sort of goes back around to the same thing, no? Hardcore gaming requires a certain removal from reality, an isolation in front of a screen, and so on. 

[Werthead]

12 hours ago, Mr. Fancy Pants said:

Like I said, I don't find his work (or any game journalist's) meaningful. 

His work goes much deeper than most game journalists into finding out what makes indie developers, big companies and modders tick, why people make games, how they do it, what their goals are and the workload required to do that. 

Blood, Sweat and Pixels by itself rewrote the understanding that people have of game development, particularly the publicising of crunch culture and developer burnout, which ultimately hurts gamers as it leads to talented developers either leaving the industry altogether or at least the big companies, contributing to the blandification of the AAA field over the last few years. It's led to real and lasting positive change in the industry. I'm not sure what's more meaningful than that.

I believe he also organised the chat with the anonymous "high-up executive in a major publisher which almost certainly isn't EA" a few years ago on Kotaku where the exec utterly obliterated a lot of so-called "self-evident truths" that hardcore gamers believe in. It was extremely enlightening and slightly depressing, but a much-needed bucket of cold water to the face ("Stop making Day One DLC!" "Stop buying it then, in your tens of millions").

[KiDisaster]

I dunno I'm pretty socially inept and spend a lot of my time isolated behind screens (yay crippling anxiety) but don't find that to be a hindrance to actually giving a fuck about other human beings and the often horrific labor conditions that go into making these games.

I think that the removal from reality mentioned and a desperate desire to preserve their bubbles of ignorance is key for many of these Gamers™ but many are also just unfeeling, bigoted pieces of garbage. 

Anyway speaking of things Gamers hate here's a great interview with Anita Sarkeesian on 10 years of Feminist Frequency https://www.polygon.com/features/2019/6/19/18679678/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-frequency-interview-history-story?utm_campaign=polygon&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter 

[Caligula_K3]

1 hour ago, KiDisaster said:

I dunno I'm pretty socially inept and spend a lot of my time isolated behind screens (yay crippling anxiety) but don't find that to be a hindrance to actually giving a fuck about other human beings and the often horrific labor conditions that go into making these games.

I think that the removal from reality mentioned and a desperate desire to preserve their bubbles of ignorance is key for many of these Gamers™ but many are also just unfeeling, bigoted pieces of garbage. 

Anyway speaking of things Gamers hate here's a great interview with Anita Sarkeesian on 10 years of Feminist Frequency https://www.polygon.com/features/2019/6/19/18679678/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-frequency-interview-history-story?utm_campaign=polygon&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter 

Unfortunately, hiding behind screens does seem to make it easy for many people to lose that basic empathy. Much easier to separate the world/developers/companies/creators into good and evil ones when you can do it behind the anonymity of a screen, and when you don't have to think about what it actually means to create a video game, or a TV show, or anything. That's the greatest benefit of what Schreier's done, to my mind: he shines light on what the actual issues are during development, how developers are exploited, and shows that often when a bad or underwhelming game is made, it's not as simple as the developers being "lazy" or "greedy" or "idiots" or "not caring" or "terrible people" or blah blah.  Unfortunately, that lesson still seems lost on much of the gaming internet, to judge from the never ending outrage at the dumbest of things ("you can't bring all the Pokemon into the new Pokemon game!!! GameFreak are lazy! idiots!!". And  it's then easy for that lack of empathy created by the anonymity of the internet to then turn into all out bigotry, sexism, racism, anger at just about everyone and everything that isn't you and people like you. What a fun world.

Thanks for the metroidvania reccommendation, Mr. Fancy Pants - I'll check it out!

[Jace, Extat]

So I never really knew who Ana Sarkesien was. The whole gamergate thing happened but I'm an adult so...

Long story short, I'm not above tribalism nor am I afraid to admit it. As far as I've been concerned Sarkesien is a person getting attacked by Incel freaks. So I immediately sided with her and never gave half a fuck about their "ethics in game journalism" shit. 

That being said, having learned more about her from trustworthy folks who actually gave a shit... I don't think I like her. This whole 'consulting' thing. I had heard about it. I remember blocking out people who complained about her being attached to Andromeda because fuck them. I actually recall shutting off a YouTuber laying into Anthem because he made a Sarkeesian joke (I think about Andromeda) and I just wasn't having it.

But I'm not cool with her tweeting at CDPR making an implicit threat that if they don't conform their art to her guidelines (as a consultant) she'll sick her dogs on them. I'm just not cool with that. And when I saw it I had to phone a friend who loves seeing what incels are up to so that I could make sure I wasn't just consuming nonsense and lies.

Like, I don't like taking any side that puts me next to Ben Shapiro for any reason. And I can handle a lot in the name of blind loyalty to an ally. Bring back Al Franken for the love of god, give me 5 unwanted Joe Biden touches a day if it gets Trump gone, hell  I'll even have a conversation with Joe Scarborough in the interest of putting my party ahead of country.

But quoting an idiotic and uninformed Twitter rant as evidence that a company has to hire you to okay-ify their art in the context of responding to a social crisis is so directly counter to what I understand liberalism to be that in this instance I have to side with the incels. That's not cool. She shouldn't be harassed, and I'm sure that a lot of what she has to say is productive and moves us forward. But this kind of amateur troll baity shit is what I'd expect from Bill Mahr and why I don't like him, the implicit extortion is my Rubicon.

People are complicated. I don't really know or care why all the neckbeards have hated this woman (other than for being a woman), but it is no longer possible for me to take her side against them without question. CDPR is also far from perfect. I understand devs' rights are a thing now because gamers are so shockingly intellectually lazy that they couldn't understand that the famous story about Halo 2 being made in a year doesn't just fucking happen until the Jashon Schriber article came out. 

Buuuuuut... nothing. But nothing. Workers get abused everywhere every day, and Sarkieseian plummeted in my estimation with this ridiculous demand.

I fucking love the internet. This nightmarish hellscape is waaaaaay better than flying cars.

[TrueMetis]

Ana Sarkisian made really basic points about video game issues badly. Quite frankly she doesn't deserve the attention she gets either way.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

His work goes much deeper than most game journalists into finding out what makes indie developers, big companies and modders tick, why people make games, how they do it, what their goals are and the workload required to do that. 

Blood, Sweat and Pixels by itself rewrote the understanding that people have of game development, particularly the publicising of crunch culture and developer burnout, which ultimately hurts gamers as it leads to talented developers either leaving the industry altogether or at least the big companies, contributing to the blandification of the AAA field over the last few years. It's led to real and lasting positive change in the industry. I'm not sure what's more meaningful than that.

I believe he also organised the chat with the anonymous "high-up executive in a major publisher which almost certainly isn't EA" a few years ago on Kotaku where the exec utterly obliterated a lot of so-called "self-evident truths" that hardcore gamers believe in. It was extremely enlightening and slightly depressing, but a much-needed bucket of cold water to the face ("Stop making Day One DLC!" "Stop buying it then, in your tens of millions").

I have no real connection to all of this, to be honest. I think a lot of us live in perpetual crunch in our careers, and it sucks, and while I am in a profession I love, many people aren't. I think any time an artistic medium becomes commodified, insane crunch happens. Definitely in movie and TV--they're notorious for this. This is the way of the capitalist world, and all the Schier's in the world won't change that. Only significant modifications to capitalist systems can save the worker, but then, this isn't the politics thread, so I'll let it go.

[The Anti-Targ]

11 hours ago, Relic said:

That's also true. The Twitch/Reddit/4Chan echo chambers are another reason, of course. But it all sort of goes back around to the same thing, no? Hardcore gaming requires a certain removal from reality, an isolation in front of a screen, and so on. 

And you best not try to upset the supply of my fix by exposing shady and abusive industry practices. Otherwise I'll go postal on your arse.

[Impmk2]

The whataboutism defending CDPR is pretty crazy lol. They make good games. That doesn't preclude them from being a shitty company to work for. And while we haven't seen cyberpunk yet they have a fucking terrible track record with the depiction of women. Don't exactly give huge confidence on a nuanced discussion of transgender or minority issues.

Pointing this out does not mean you don't also care about these issues when they come up elsewhere. People can care about more than one thing at a time.

[KiDisaster]

1 hour ago, Mr. Fancy Pants said:

I have no real connection to all of this, to be honest. I think a lot of us live in perpetual crunch in our careers, and it sucks, and while I am in a profession I love, many people aren't. I think any time an artistic medium becomes commodified, insane crunch happens. Definitely in movie and TV--they're notorious for this. This is the way of the capitalist world, and all the Schier's in the world won't change that. Only significant modifications to capitalist systems can save the worker, but then, this isn't the politics thread, so I'll let it go.

You don't see the press drawing attention to issues like this as an important part of moving toward those modifications to the capitalist system? More and more video game and tech related media outlets have been unionizing in the last couple of years, organizations like GDU are pushing for the same in the actual development industry. Their growing success, and the growing support for it, is thanks in part to work like Schreier's. 

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

54 minutes ago, KiDisaster said:

You don't see the press drawing attention to issues like this as an important part of moving toward those modifications to the capitalist system? More and more video game and tech related media outlets have been unionizing in the last couple of years, organizations like GDU are pushing for the same in the actual development industry. Their growing success, and the growing support for it, is thanks in part to work like Schreier's. 

 

I didn't know about the unionizing, but I am pro union. But then, this is likely the issue with video game reporting, we hear about the problems, but not the solutions (at least, I don't come across these kinds of stories). I'd like to see more stories about this kind of thing (unionizing) because the more attention that gets, the harder it becomes for companies to do some union busting. Hell, NFL players have a union, actors have a union, and I think game developers should have a union too. When I was head of our teacher union, one of the big things we pushed for was not requiring (or implying) teachers must work extra hours beyond their contracts. They should be able to go home and unwind. This is important to me. But even there, I'm not interested in news talking about the poor conditions teachers are under. We know it. Everyone works in shitty conditions. I'm more interested in unionizing, worker rights, higher wages, etc. 

I'll keep an eye out for those stories from Schreier as I go forward. 

2 hours ago, Impmk2 said:

The whataboutism defending CDPR is pretty crazy lol. They make good games. That doesn't preclude them from being a shitty company to work for. And while we haven't seen cyberpunk yet they have a fucking terrible track record with the depiction of women. Don't exactly give huge confidence on a nuanced discussion of transgender or minority issues.

Pointing this out does not mean you don't also care about these issues when they come up elsewhere. People can care about more than one thing at a time.

What do you mean "whataboutism?" This isn't about that. And they had a bad track record with women in the first game, but the Witcher 2 and 3 have pretty strong, positive images of women. In fact, they had a fairly nuanced take on homosexuality in the Witcher 3. I don't buy the bad record argument. It feels as hollow as someone saying that CDPR supports abusive men because of the Red Baron. They're dealing with these issues in a fairly non-binary way which is difficult, I think, for people.

8 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

So I never really knew who Ana Sarkesien was. The whole gamergate thing happened but I'm an adult so...

Long story short, I'm not above tribalism nor am I afraid to admit it. As far as I've been concerned Sarkesien is a person getting attacked by Incel freaks. So I immediately sided with her and never gave half a fuck about their "ethics in game journalism" shit. 

That being said, having learned more about her from trustworthy folks who actually gave a shit... I don't think I like her. This whole 'consulting' thing. I had heard about it. I remember blocking out people who complained about her being attached to Andromeda because fuck them. I actually recall shutting off a YouTuber laying into Anthem because he made a Sarkeesian joke (I think about Andromeda) and I just wasn't having it.

But I'm not cool with her tweeting at CDPR making an implicit threat that if they don't conform their art to her guidelines (as a consultant) she'll sick her dogs on them. I'm just not cool with that. And when I saw it I had to phone a friend who loves seeing what incels are up to so that I could make sure I wasn't just consuming nonsense and lies.

Like, I don't like taking any side that puts me next to Ben Shapiro for any reason. And I can handle a lot in the name of blind loyalty to an ally. Bring back Al Franken for the love of god, give me 5 unwanted Joe Biden touches a day if it gets Trump gone, hell  I'll even have a conversation with Joe Scarborough in the interest of putting my party ahead of country.

But quoting an idiotic and uninformed Twitter rant as evidence that a company has to hire you to okay-ify their art in the context of responding to a social crisis is so directly counter to what I understand liberalism to be that in this instance I have to side with the incels. That's not cool. She shouldn't be harassed, and I'm sure that a lot of what she has to say is productive and moves us forward. But this kind of amateur troll baity shit is what I'd expect from Bill Mahr and why I don't like him, the implicit extortion is my Rubicon.

People are complicated. I don't really know or care why all the neckbeards have hated this woman (other than for being a woman), but it is no longer possible for me to take her side against them without question. CDPR is also far from perfect. I understand devs' rights are a thing now because gamers are so shockingly intellectually lazy that they couldn't understand that the famous story about Halo 2 being made in a year doesn't just fucking happen until the Jashon Schriber article came out. 

Buuuuuut... nothing. But nothing. Workers get abused everywhere every day, and Sarkieseian plummeted in my estimation with this ridiculous demand.

I fucking love the internet. This nightmarish hellscape is waaaaaay better than flying cars.

She's interesting. I think she makes a lot of good points, and I think GamerGate made me get off the fence and firmly stand on her side. I can't say why Neckbeards hate her except that there is a fear if she gets her way, white men (with neckbeards) will no longer be represented in games. Say what you will about Andromeda (which she consulted on, I believe), but of the two playable options for a main character, one of them was a white male. Maybe he was too beta? I don't know. Whatever his name was wouldn't fit in with the Joe Rogan fans, I guess. But Sarkeesian does seem ready to rage against things. I'm not sure why she's more of an expert on the transgender issue than everyone in CDPR's studio. However, if my annoyance at gaming journalism puts me in the same bubble as Ben Shapiro, then I will rescind every single comment I've made thus far.

I remember the first I ever heard about her was on the Indoor Kids podcast (Kumail Nanjiani and Emily Gordon), and this was before GamerGate. They talked about how her Feminist Frequency project was crowd-funded, and what she'd produced (early on) was analysis like "women in Mario games wear pink." I think the argument is, she's a feminist, not a gamer, so her recommendations aren't new or feasible for this medium. I don't know if I agree or not. I find a lot of her videos fairly spot on. 

[KiDisaster]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Fancy Pants said:

I didn't know about the unionizing, but I am pro union. But then, this is likely the issue with video game reporting, we hear about the problems, but not the solutions (at least, I don't come across these kinds of stories). I'd like to see more stories about this kind of thing (unionizing) because the more attention that gets, the harder it becomes for companies to do some union busting. Hell, NFL players have a union, actors have a union, and I think game developers should have a union too. When I was head of our teacher union, one of the big things we pushed for was not requiring (or implying) teachers must work extra hours beyond their contracts. They should be able to go home and unwind. This is important to me. But even there, I'm not interested in news talking about the poor conditions teachers are under. We know it. Everyone works in shitty conditions. I'm more interested in unionizing, worker rights, higher wages, etc. 

I'll keep an eye out for those stories from Schreier as I go forward. 

I'm not sure if Schreier specifically has any articles focusing on unions, but other sites have been doing that work. Waypoint (or rather Vice Games now technically) focus on it quite heavily. Here's a piece they wrote about the efforts of Game Workers Unite at this year's GDC https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/zmad85/unionization-was-center-stage-at-the-2019-game-developers-conference

Just yesterday we saw Bernie Sanders tweeting in support of GWU. The support is growing, and slowly the industry is going to get there. Kicking and screaming as the higher ups may be.