Kingsguard Allowance

[Br16]

How much do you think people such as Selmy, Dayne or Gerold got paid as KG. I'm sure they get all they need to do their jobs plus room and board, servants and general access to Red Keep food luxuries etc. However, is there some sort of Kingsguard treasury controlled by LC who doles out some silver moons every fortnight as leisure allowance? 

If so, what did the more frugal and honorable people like Selmy do with the money? Did they just let it pile up until they have a few hundred coins in savings?

[Gingin]

They surely earn enough to maintain their equipments. And also honorable people might indulge from time to time in wine, food... and women too.

[Br16]

19 minutes ago, Gingin said:

They surely earn enough to maintain their equipments. And also honorable people might indulge from time to time in wine, food... and women too.

 Personally, I expected the king to pay for the horse, sword, new steel etc. I was just wondering about the allowance portion. As you say, honorable people would indulge in wine, women and song from time to time. However, people like Barristan seem rather idealistic and repressed, such as his courtly love for Ashara Dayne. 

He probably used his savings to cross the Narrow sea. 

[Gingin]

8 minutes ago, Br16 said:

However, people like Barristan seem rather idealistic and repressed, such as his courtly love for Ashara Dayne. 

He probably used his savings to cross the Narrow sea. 

That’s true

[rotting sea cow]

A king must be open handed so they get whatever they require. The Kingguard's main duty is to guard the King, but they also act as envoys and ambassadors, as general and battlefield commanders, they have also squires they need to feed and dress, equipment to maintain, etc, etc, etc. Yes, a lot of this is not highlighted in the text, but we get some hints. They are expected to be frugal but at the same time they MUST keep a highly distinctive presentation. Bottom line, they do not lack coin but they are not expected to be lavish.

[Br16]

1 minute ago, rotting sea cow said:

A king must be open handed so they get whatever they require. The Kingguard's main duty is to guard the King, but they also act as envoys and ambassadors, as general and battlefield commanders, they have also squires they need to feed and dress, equipment to maintain, etc, etc, etc. Yes, a lot of this is not highlighted in the text, but we get some hints. They are expected to be frugal but at the same time they MUST keep a highly distinctive presentation. Bottom line, they do not lack coin but they are not expected to be lavish.

You have a point. I was probably too modern in my opinion that there was a separation between personal allowance and business expenses. Given the disdain for "counting coppers", perhaps as long as they "keep a highly distinctive presentation" they could dip into the King's treasury without much control or need to account for withdrawals or expenses. And as long as they didn't get into a scandal or do something too outrageous, no one would check on their spending.

[sweetsunray]

KG are not supposed to spend money on a woman once in a while. We know some aren't following the rules as strictly, but digging for treasure like the NW men, could get them castrated and sent to the wall. So, you won't see them at brothels no. If they are sexually active it would be with a woman/man in the castle or location where they work.

As for allowance. Most of that would come from tourney winnings imo.

[Gingin]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

KG are not supposed to spend money on a woman once in a while. We know some aren't following the rules as strictly, but digging for treasure like the NW men, could get them castrated and sent to the wall. So, you won't see them at brothels no. If they are sexually active it would be with a woman/man in the castle or location where they work.

What you say is true, but well... all they need to do is be discreet, they just don’t have to get caught.

[Br16]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

KG are not supposed to spend money on a woman once in a while. We know some aren't following the rules as strictly, but digging for treasure like the NW men, could get them castrated and sent to the wall. So, you won't see them at brothels no. If they are sexually active it would be with a woman/man in the castle or location where they work.

As for allowance. Most of that would come from tourney winnings imo.

Perhaps, I always thought the exact wording of the vow "not wed or father no children" was intentional to leave an opening for affairs and moon tea. Basically, as long as they don't have a legit House (wife and heirs) of their own to distract from their loyalty, everything else was okay.  

Also, i feel tourneys were more of a bonus, It seems kind of cheap to force them to get spending money through tourneys. 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

As for allowance. Most of that would come from tourney winnings imo.

This is a good answer.

I imagine some of them would receive bribes or gifts. People who want the ear of the king, or to have their issue mentioned in high places. Or maybe a member of the royal family or a lady gives a guard a jewel from time to time as a reward for his discretion or other services.

On the other hand, maybe the king would provide a generous allowance in order to discourage the King's Guard from taking bribes or gratuities. Their loyalty can be to the throne, only.

The king would also want the members of the guard to look splendid and be well-fed and unworried about daily expenses. I have been listening to an audiobook about the Tudor era, and there was a strict dress code that differentiated social classes throughout England. But servants of rich men were exempt from the code: they could wear clothes made from imported fabric, just as their important employers could. The idea was probably to ensure that these servants were treated with the respect and deference owed to their employer when they represented him in public.

Another possibility for King's Guard income is that guards' families send them gifts of support. For instance, the Darklyns were so proud of their tradition of King's Guard membership that I expect they would send a regular payment as a reward to family members who kept up the tradition. Some members of the guard would benefit more than others, if this is the case. I suspect that Ser Barristan is really a Targ bastard, for instance, so I'm not sure how much cash would be sent from House Selmy, if it exists at all. (Although his real father may have sent money to House Selmy to forward on to Ser Barristan on the down low.) We know that Jaime has his separate gold armor as well as his all-white King's Guard armor. That gold armor has to have been a gift from Tywin or Cersei, unless Jaime brought it with him when he joined the King's Guard. (I guess Tywin paid for it, either way.)

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Br16 said:

Perhaps, I always thought the exact wording of the vow "not wed or father no children" was intentional to leave an opening for affairs and moon tea. Basically, as long as they don't have a legit House (wife and heirs) of their own to distract from their loyalty, everything else was okay. 

Well, we don't really have the wordings or vows about the KG, only about the NW vows. So, what you say above, may indeed be true for the brothers of the NW, nor is it even certain that the "no wed, no children" vow was part of the original NW vows, but may have been added later in time, long after the Long Night. It either was added after the historical Night's King debacle, or once it became an institution for Kings and Lords to send their second or third son to avoid rivalries between sons.

In the case of the KG though, we don't know their KG oath, but we know from several POVs that true celibacy is expected. Of course, several of those POVs do have affairs, but are very ashamed of it. Arys Oakheart who has an affair with Princess Arianne of Dorne is deeply ashamed of this. Jaime may have his affair with Cersei, but when she offers to give him a blowjob in the KG tower, he pushes her away. Even that is too much for him. Barristan held to his celibacy. When the likes of Osmund Kettleback end up in the KG, continued sexual activity with serving wenches is regarded as one of the examples of the moral low the KG. Even in the mind of Jaime, before he even learns from Tyrion that Cersei slept with him. More than the NW, the KG are supposed to be paragons of virtue, men who can put their personal needs aside for their king, men who have self-control over their own physical desires. These men are supposed to lay down their own life for their king or his wife, or his children and assassinations were a constant threat and possibility during Aegon the Conquerer's time, when the KG was created. And in that sense, they are absolutely required to not just have no personal attachments but be able to foreswear lust.

Quote

Also, i feel tourneys were more of a bonus, It seems kind of cheap to force them to get spending money through tourneys.

Why would it be cheap? These men are not supposed to own anything, not gamble, no whores, no paramours. Their own armour is provided by the king and they're supposed to wear the uniform all the time. And they don't have to worry about their pension as they serve for life. That leaves the squires, but that too I presume comes from the king's pocket. The King would not want his for-life-bodyguards being owed any money to anybody.

Besides, winnings from tourneys is "earning", not "spending". KG usually partake at tourneys, for they must show and prove they are the best knights around. Tourneys are the sole competition for it. And the tourneys are sponsored by lords and kings. Most of the KG book is full of tourney accomplishments.

Quote

He probably used his savings to cross the Narrow sea. 

Since Illyrio sent him to Qarth and there's no way Selmy knew about Illyrio all on his own, Varys provided for the passage of the Narrow Sea.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Since Illyrio sent him to Qarth and there's no way Selmy knew about Illyrio all on his own, Varys provided for the passage of the Narrow Sea.

He was on Robert's Small Council...

 

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

KG are not supposed to spend money on a woman once in a while. We know some aren't following the rules as strictly, but digging for treasure like the NW men, could get them castrated and sent to the wall. So, you won't see them at brothels no. If they are sexually active it would be with a woman/man in the castle or location where they work.

Lucramore was punished so severely because he openly flaunted the rules by marrying and having children, with multiple different women. Keep in mind that merely polygamy on its own would be a fairly severe crime in Westeros.

The fact the Lewyn semi-openly had a paramour in the supposed greatest Kingsguard makes it clear that KG won't really be punished like that just for not being celibate.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

He was on Robert's Small Council...

 

Lucramore was punished so severely because he openly flaunted the rules by marrying and having children, with multiple different women. Keep in mind that merely polygamy on its own would be a fairly severe crime in Westeros.

The fact the Lewyn semi-openly had a paramour in the supposed greatest Kingsguard makes it clear that KG won't really be punished like that just for not being celibate.

Robert knows from Varys that "some poxy cheesemonger with pointy hatted eunuchs in Pentos housed Dany and Viserys" and he knows that from Varys. How much did Selmy know of this? Does Robert even know the name of the cheesemonger? The message of Dany's marriage is sent by Varys to Robert in the North, and seems weird Selmy and Robert would know his name and what he looks like, if Varys met with him inside the Red Keep, and had him often send little birds to KL, no?

Sure, Lucamore was the worst case. Lewyn Martell's affair was not semi-openly known, though Selmy makes clear that Lewyn felt no shame in having a paramour. It was known to his KG brothers. It appears, Lewyn Martell did not hide it from his KG brothers or his directly family in Dorne (my guess would be Oberyn Martell in particular), but the KG kept his secret, and it did not go beyond that.

 

Quote

 

"I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn," Ser Arys said, "but all agree that he was a great knight."

"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say."

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn's page.

"My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs," she went on, "so spare me all your pious talk of soiled cloaks. It is not our love that has dishonored you, it is the monsters you have served and the brutes you've called your brothers." (aFfC, a Soiled Knight - aka Arys)

"So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …"

"… paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor. "That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that." (aDwD, the Discarded Knight- aka Selmy Barristan)