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I hate the Starks, should I keep reading?


Tyrion1991

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3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Because Volantis is a powerfull city, not some backwater feudal realm.

What makes you think that the Stormlands are empty? They basically  fought only one battle in the WotFK.

The Spanish Armada was nearly the double of the size of the GC ships. Plus, the commander of that fleet was inexperienced.

It makes sense doesn't it? To starve her and her army there. The ghiscari have no reason to believe that she would just abandon all that she got in the Slaver's Bay for Westeros.

But they do. Insurance already exist in Martinworld.

 

Volantis barely got mentioned as a major player, if at all in Storm of Swords. Then come ADWD they all start coming out of the woodwork because George figures that he needed a bigger supply of bodies to throw in Danys direction. So, tada, suddenly magics up a Byzantine Empire out of nowhere.

Aegon easily taking Griffins Roost and the panic in the Small Council. Him being set up to take Storms End and possibly be joined by Tarly and Dorne once Arriane reaches him. He’s going to win. Otherwise you would have unpopular Cersei on the Throne and possibly illegitimate Boy King. If tyrell folds, the Lords of the South would join Aegon. Those Stormlanders will probably join Aegon.

Even then. It’s a fraction of the distance and it nearly bankrupted Early Modern Spain. You can’t just hurl guys into ships and have it work out. Especially when you aren’t even paying them. The guy pulled Medieval D Day out of his backside.

I can assure you Dany is not going to have a free pass getting her armies to Westeros like aegon got there. We’ll have the inevitable talk about how “it’s too expensive, there aren’t enough ships, the wind keeps us in port, plague wracks the crews as they wait to depart, we can only take a tenth of our Essos armies with us Empress Iam sorry” etc etc etc All part of George rigging the game rather than letting the cards fall as they will.

Considering the Sons of the Harpy and sellswords abandoning her service people should very well know that she wants out. All the slavers have to do is say “yes Dragonqueen, we promise to leave the slaves be and we’ll take you all the way to Westeros”. Then once she’s thousands of miles away they can raze Mereen as they please. However they instead commit themselves to a grand coalition which will at best retake a worthless Mereen (the poorest city in the world BTW) and at worst put them all in one place where Dany can kill them.

What prevents the Dothraki bringing their slaves to a less geographically isolated and impoverished region? Why not take the slaves to Myr or Volantis directly? Tyrion notes the presence of nearby Dothraki. There’s no need for middlemen. Slavers Bay is ridiculous. If it was realistic the slaves would be working extracting resources which Dany should be able to profit from or reward to her followers; think the Southern United States with its agricultural land. Instead their only source of income is the training and exchange of slaves which is ridiculous. I still don’t understand how the Dothraki get to slavers bay considering the Daemon road but...

Apparently the slavers can call a Dothraki horde into mereen like it’s not a big deal. Well apparently this Daemon roads reputation is undeserved or that would be incredibly inconsistent. It seems only Danys allies ever have problems moving around Essos.

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7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

If one of your top 5* was not Kettricken then you can GTFO :P 

 

*as of book 3 anyway, there are simply way too many other great characters introduced in later books so i could forgive her omission.

 

Interestingly, Hobb released Assassin’s Apprentice around the same time as Thrones and has since completed her 16 book series in that world...(to an absolutely beautiful ending i may add)

Kettricken does indeed break top 5, although the only 2 in that 5 which cannot be moved under any circumstances are Burrich and Nighteyes.

 

Yeah, and not only that but her cast is possibly larger, her characters and plots and story possibly more fleshed out and elaborate, and despite the presence of high magic every bit as Human and flawed, yet Hobb seems to be able to overcome these trials.

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2 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Kettricken does indeed break top 5, although the only 2 in that 5 which cannot be moved under any circumstances are Burrich and Nighteyes.

 

Yeah, and not only that but her cast is possibly larger, her characters and plots and story possibly more fleshed out and elaborate, and despite the presence of high magic every bit as Human and flawed, yet Hobb seems to be able to overcome these trials.

Nighteyes :crying:

Hobb’s non-human characters are just as well done as her human ones. You can tell how much she loves animals

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On 6/13/2019 at 1:14 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

So I didn’t come into the series because of these characters. I came in because of Daenerys and the Game of Thrones plot line; which only very partially involves the Starks. 

I honestly only really liked early Sansa (I think it’s increasingly obvious the character is heading down a grim dark path) and the rest were either boring like Arya/Bran or actively offended me like Jon. 

Should I keep reading? 

I know that the final book was meant to be called a Time for Wolves and the theory that Jon might be Rhaegars son. These things suggest that the series is built upon Stark fan service which would involve pushing aside other characters which I am more invested in.

For example, I actually don’t like the King in the North and Northern Independence thing. It feels forced, rammed down my throat and nationalism is kind of evil. The expectation that I should be rooting for this is disconcerting. Why are they more important than peasants in the Westerlands? Why is their society and culture set on a pedestal? I am not impressed.

So far I can keep reading because there’s enough characters, plot lines and all the Starks are weak with no real power. I am essentially ignoring their existence. Once that changes though and they all become major players I think it will be very difficult for me to carry on with the series. Frankly I skipped most of Jon, Arya and Brans chapters, skim reading them at best. I truly don’t care about them at all. In the case of Jon, even the authors best efforts to paint him in a positive light only increase my disdain and contempt for him.

 

Obvious troll is obvious. But i give you +1 for effort.

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On 6/14/2019 at 11:35 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

Yeah i don't have a glowing opinion of the first men based on the references to them.   Nobody even knows enough about them to really be pro or anti.  They displaced the natives, and the text doesn't glorify that.  The fate of the Children taps into our guilt.  So i don't see the favoritism of first men you spoke of.    The books didn't give the impression we should approve of them.  They just were.   A bare bones skeleton of a myth that evokes misgivings.  

I don't know. Look at all the major characters with FM blood: 

-the Starks
-the Lannisters
-the Baratheons (of course they also have Targ blood)
-Bloodraven aka The Three Eyed-Crow/Raven (who is also half-Targaryen)
-Daenerys

Kind of seems like no matter how it goes, a descendant of the FM is going to end up in charge. 

On 6/14/2019 at 11:35 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

George seems much more obsessed with Targs.   

Aren't we all? ;) I absolutely love the Targs. They're so delightfully dysfunctional--like a soap opera family with live, flying nuclear weapons. That whole "blood of the dragon" superiority, right to rule, bordering on gods-on-earth thing is adorable. Well, it is on some members of the family. Viserys III just came off arrogant, entitled, and insane.

On 6/14/2019 at 11:35 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

  If ice & fire humping is a fix for the targ insanity so we get true dragons like danny again, let's get these magic bloodlines a-humpin' !   

You know that's the best argument for a Jon+Dany endgame I've ever seen. I'm going to have to do some research now into whether any Targs with a non-Targ parent went nutso.

On 6/14/2019 at 11:35 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

What i'm saying is i really don't know how to predict the ending after all this time. 

None of us do, and yes that is what makes it fun (sorry I cut that sentence out). We can certainly trust George (and apparently no one else!) to end it in a way that makes sense.

By the way, I can see some hope for Stannis too. It's slim, but it's there.

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  • 5 months later...
On 6/12/2019 at 6:14 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

So I didn’t come into the series because of these characters. I came in because of Daenerys and the Game of Thrones plot line; which only very partially involves the Starks. 

I honestly only really liked early Sansa (I think it’s increasingly obvious the character is heading down a grim dark path) and the rest were either boring like Arya/Bran or actively offended me like Jon. 

Should I keep reading? 

I know that the final book was meant to be called a Time for Wolves and the theory that Jon might be Rhaegars son. These things suggest that the series is built upon Stark fan service which would involve pushing aside other characters which I am more invested in.

For example, I actually don’t like the King in the North and Northern Independence thing. It feels forced, rammed down my throat and nationalism is kind of evil. The expectation that I should be rooting for this is disconcerting. Why are they more important than peasants in the Westerlands? Why is their society and culture set on a pedestal? I am not impressed.

So far I can keep reading because there’s enough characters, plot lines and all the Starks are weak with no real power. I am essentially ignoring their existence. Once that changes though and they all become major players I think it will be very difficult for me to carry on with the series. Frankly I skipped most of Jon, Arya and Brans chapters, skim reading them at best. I truly don’t care about them at all. In the case of Jon, even the authors best efforts to paint him in a positive light only increase my disdain and contempt for him.

 

You're a really annoying Daenerys fan (that or you're a troll). You're always here blabbing about your dislike for Jon/Starks and boner for Daenerys. Like it or not the Starks are protagonists in this story. You're missing more than 75% of this story by skimming their chapters. So no, don't keep reading. Pick something else to read or write your own story with a victorious Daenerys or whatever warped version you want to write. You're not gonna get a Targaryen restoration (that you did not get from the tv version) by reading the books. If it didn't happen on TV, it sure as hell ain't happening here where her and her family are portrayed in a much more sinister light than the show. Save yourself massive disappointment, because you won't get your dream story from someone else's vision. 

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On 6/12/2019 at 7:14 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

So I didn’t come into the series because of these characters. I came in because of Daenerys and the Game of Thrones plot line; which only very partially involves the Starks. 

I honestly only really liked early Sansa (I think it’s increasingly obvious the character is heading down a grim dark path) and the rest were either boring like Arya/Bran or actively offended me like Jon. 

Should I keep reading? 

I know that the final book was meant to be called a Time for Wolves and the theory that Jon might be Rhaegars son. These things suggest that the series is built upon Stark fan service which would involve pushing aside other characters which I am more invested in.

For example, I actually don’t like the King in the North and Northern Independence thing. It feels forced, rammed down my throat and nationalism is kind of evil. The expectation that I should be rooting for this is disconcerting. Why are they more important than peasants in the Westerlands? Why is their society and culture set on a pedestal? I am not impressed.

So far I can keep reading because there’s enough characters, plot lines and all the Starks are weak with no real power. I am essentially ignoring their existence. Once that changes though and they all become major players I think it will be very difficult for me to carry on with the series. Frankly I skipped most of Jon, Arya and Brans chapters, skim reading them at best. I truly don’t care about them at all. In the case of Jon, even the authors best efforts to paint him in a positive light only increase my disdain and contempt for him.

 

Keep reading because what HBO presented is not the story. I am mostly interested in Daenerys Targaryen's story, the dragons, her entourage, and slaver's bay.  I don't really enjoy the Starks but you can't expect to like every bit of such a long story series. The series has something for everybody. 

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I don't think this series is something for you. It's well within your right to dislike the Starks, but as it ASOIAF is about them. George has called them (Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran) the heroes of the story. The last book was supposed to be originally called "A Time for Wolves". The hour of the Wolf will come and the Starks will reign by the end. 

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5 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Keep reading because what HBO presented is not the story. I am mostly interested in Daenerys Targaryen's story, the dragons, her entourage, and slaver's bay.  I don't really enjoy the Starks but you can't expect to like every bit of such a long story series. The series has something for everybody. 

Same here.  I'm tempted to skip Jon, Sansa, and Arya.  I don't like the Starks.  I do like Daenerys, Barristan, Victarion, and Tyrion. Brienne has some good chapters when it doesn't intersect with a Stark.

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I don't think this series is something for you. It's well within your right to dislike the Starks, but as it ASOIAF is about them. George has called them (Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran) the heroes of the story. The last book was supposed to be originally called "A Time for Wolves". The hour of the Wolf will come and the Starks will reign by the end. 

Dany is the main character though.  I put up with the Starks to get to her chapters.

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@Dothraki Khal Dany is absolutely a main character. Without her and the Targaryens the story would fall flat. However just because they play a big role in the story doesn't inherently mean they are good people. In a way the Targaryens remind me of the Gaunt family from Harry Potter. A severely inbred family that has a special connection with reptiles and disturbing allegory to racism. If we look it at that then Dany is basically Voldemort. She's the final antagonist of ASOIAF and the Targaryen family will end with her. 

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9 hours ago, Dothraki Khal said:

Same here.  I'm tempted to skip Jon, Sansa, and Arya.  I don't like the Starks.  I do like Daenerys, Barristan, Victarion, and Tyrion. Brienne has some good chapters when it doesn't intersect with a Stark.

Dany is the main character though.  I put up with the Starks to get to her chapters.

She is A main character, not THE main character. 

You're basically reading a complex story and disregarding other characters hoping for the victory of one character who's destined for a tragic end, because she really isn't the hero of this story. Like it or not, the Starks are the heroes of this story, heck Bran probably is the main character if we're going by what GRRM has planned for him. You can say whatever about how the HBO version sucked and complain about what is and what isn't in the books or whatever. It's still not looking good for Daenerys either way.

 

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6 hours ago, Wholala17 said:

She is A main character, not THE main character.

That's the most annoying thing to read in this thread. How this entire book series is all about Dany and Targ restoration and all the chapters with a Stark/Snow is some side journey that needn't be there. People always harp on GRRM's original outline and that one had 5 'main' characters mentioned, 3 of whom were Starks (counting Jon). How people come to the conclusion that this is Dany's story is beyond me. And it's been made clear by GRRM several times that this isn't LotR so why would one think that Dany will get everything (be the Promised One, get the Throne), be a squeaky clean character, win every battle and solve every problem and restore her house to greatness? That sounds like a Disney fairytale not aSoIaF.

For example, I for one hate Cersei and Tyrion as human beings. But I love being inside their heads. Cersei is so entertaining in her nuttiness and stupidity. And I can still have empathy for her too, as I would have empathy for any domestic abuse victim or someone forced to walk through a city naked. The same goes for Tyrion who is a bundle of issues and problematic notions that make for one unlikeable fellow. Throw in the unique problems he faces due to dwarfism, ableism, his looks etc. and he's fascinating to read about. Still despise them though.

Maybe for me it's more about the psychological aspects of the characters and that's why I have no problem reading the chapters of characters I don't like or outright hate. Sometimes it's what the characters are up to or what happens around them.

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6 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Dothraki Khal Dany is absolutely a main character. Without her and the Targaryens the story would fall flat. However just because they play a big role in the story doesn't inherently mean they are good people. In a way the Targaryens remind me of the Gaunt family from Harry Potter. A severely inbred family that has a special connection with reptiles and disturbing allegory to racism. If we look it at that then Dany is basically Voldemort. She's the final antagonist of ASOIAF and the Targaryen family will end with her. 

You're allowing the show to influence your prediction.  The two, book and show, are not the same.  Jon and Arya are the villains of the story.  Jon is the fuckup who brought down the defenses of the wall because he couldn't keep to his duties.

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21 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

You're allowing the show to influence your prediction.  The two, book and show, are not the same.  Jon and Arya are the villains of the story.  Jon is the fuckup who brought down the defenses of the wall because he couldn't keep to his duties.

Apparently Martin disagrees w/ you, since he has said, “Jon Snow is the truest character--I like his sense of realism and the way he copes with his bastardy”. 

More recently he said that (paraphrasing) it would be interesting if someone reading the novels now becomes a leader, like a senator or president... if they model themselves on Jon Snow and not Jofrfrey. He could have used Dany as an example, as someone people could have as a role model. And yet he didn’t. 

But ‘tis ok. You can hang onto your deluded fanfic, at least for a little while longer. :)

 

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4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

You're allowing the show to influence your prediction.  The two, book and show, are not the same.  Jon and Arya are the villains of the story.  Jon is the fuckup who brought down the defenses of the wall because he couldn't keep to his duties.

Except I am not. I had a feeling we would get a Dark!Dany way back in 2014 after I read the Meereenese blot essays, and GRRM has approved them. Besides George has always been upfront about the true role of Daenerys. 

A Song of Ice and Fire takes place in a fictional world, primarily on a continent called Westeros, and additionally on a large landmass to the east, known as Essos. Three main story lines become increasingly interwoven: a dynastic civil war for control of Westeros among several competing families; the rising threat of the Others, who dwell beyond the immense wall of ice that forms Westeros's northern border; and the ambitions of Daenerys Targaryen, exiled daughter of the deposed king, to return to Westeros and claim her throne. 

Notice how Dany is described in the same way like the White Walkers? Dany was never supposed to be a 'savior', she's just as much an existential threat like the Others. Dany/Dragons = Fire. The Others = Ice. Plus George also always said the dragons are basically a sentient version of weapons of mass destruction. The signs of Dany being the final antagonist was always in our face. 

 
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4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Apparently Martin disagrees w/ you, since he has said, “Jon Snow is the truest character--I like his sense of realism and the way he copes with his bastardy”. 

More recently he said that (paraphrasing) it would be interesting if someone reading the novels now becomes a leader, like a senator or president... if they model themselves on Jon Snow and not Jofrfrey. He could have used Dany as an example, as someone people could have as a role model. And yet he didn’t. 

But ‘tis ok. You can hang onto your deluded fanfic, at least for a little while longer. :)

 

Also the only one that GRRM has come out about being a villain (other than the obvious ones) before that character even really started the journey there, is Tyrion. Though it's interesting that a lot of those people who praise Tyrion to high heavens, and refuse to see him as a character that is getting darker (and ignore his already problematic behavior and evil deeds) and entering villain territory, are also staunch Dany supporters. Wonder if there is a correlation there...

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