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Tyrion1991

I hate the Starks, should I keep reading?

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Why read something you despise? just stop reading and move onto something you like. There are literally thousands of fantasy books out there. Amazon has 50,000 books listed in their fantasy section.

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Yeah, you should, I take the piss out of his name in my avatar because it took me until the third series of books of which he is the main character for Fitz to even break my top 5 characters of that world, although that is a much more well described world than Planetod so far.

 

As for Planetos, well I cannot stand Dany, sorry not true, I cannot stand Dragons, I can take or leave Dany, her chapters do literally nothing for me unless she has a strong supporting cast, Barristan, Jorah and Missandei. I adore the grim Medieval warfare, the vague hint of magic in the background, I liked Eddard and Robb Stark, was fond of Cat, don’t care for the others. In truth, once Stannis is done, so is my real investment in how things turn out, now there is a compelling character like some of the real worlds most famous generals, I will of course continue reading once he is gone, Davos, Jaime, Brienne, hoping that Tyrion and Littlefinger die, will Danearys really let herself down with regards to Aegon (Gods I hope so)? Jon Connington, the Baratheon succession (if they live and the Targs are gone I shall be crying with laughter), Lady Olenna, Queen Margery, Cersie’s downfall, Tormund and Mance, Oberyns paramour (Westeros’ last remaining voice of reason) all will be worth reading and less than you think will involve the Starks or characters you don’t like, it will still be a good read. The problem is that some characters make you like them too hard and make you turn on their possible enemies or downfalls, I really enjoy Stannis, he reads like one of the better historical people observed by Bernard Cornwells fictional ones, we are talking Alfred the Great and Wellington with an added dose of bastard, I will keep reading when he is gone, as hard as it will be, and will try not to turn my venom on those that bring him down

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Also I deserve plaudits for powering through with a sensible answer, my first reply was ‘I hate my girlfriend, should I marry her?’ 

 

I shall sit here and await your praise

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6 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's not intended for anyone to root for them. If it caused you contempt them, then it's OK, because, it causes people to react differently. 

The author doesn't act like you should think this way or that way. It's contradictive to claim so because in your case it's easier to say that he acts like you shouldn't be impressed, simply because you're not. It caused that effect exactly, didn't it?

Daenerys did nothing to earn respect in Westeros. She is in Essos and nobody in Westeros is compelled by her simply because she is absent from the continent.

Jon is but a brother of the Night's watch, dead, or in a coma, probably to wake up again. It is not revealed if he is an heir to anything, be it made by Robb or Rhaegar. 

 

It’s certainly not written to inspire to contempt. It’s depicted as a heroic action and it’s why you see Sansa rooting for it in her chapters. You also don’t see a valid criticism of this desire made in the books. Contrast that with how the Ironborn rebellion is depicted, even by other Ironborn characters. I see that as bias by the author as they should equally be bad ideas.

Not really because he then wins over all the young recruits, he helps Sam who is an insert for George/the reader, he stands up to that meanie Allisar Thorne, he saves the Old Bear who then gives him his sword. Those are things intended to win the reader over and assume you’re rooting for him. 

Shes not absent by choice. George chose to have Slavers Bay be blocked by the Doom of Valeria and the Daemon Road. These are not things Dany has a choice about. Frankly it doesn’t matter. Aegon has been introduced to steel Danny’s thunder and prevent her being the Queen that saves everyone from Cersei. Another thing she did not have a choice in but the author arbitrarily decided.

Also in the AFFC intro people do actually talk about rumours from the East. If it weren’t for plot device Aegon this would be the restoration of 1660. But George is busy contriving a situation where that does not happen with Aegon and Jon.

“Blue rose in an ice wall” - Subtle

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Another thing she did not have a choice in but the author arbitrarily decided.

Of course, she's a character made by George. Everything in the books is arbitrarily decided by him.

58 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If it weren’t for plot device Aegon this would be the restoration of 1660

No, it wouldn't. Charles II was never trying to build his own kingdom in the other side of the planet.

Even Dany isn't really interested in getting the Iron Throne, it's just something that she sometimes thinks is her duty.

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Shes not absent by choice. George chose to have Slavers Bay be blocked by the Doom of Valeria and the Daemon Road. These are not things Dany has a choice about. Frankly it doesn’t matter. Aegon has been introduced to steel Danny’s thunder and prevent her being the Queen that saves everyone from Cersei. Another thing she did not have a choice in but the author arbitrarily decided.

Of course she is absent by choice.  She chose to remain in Meereen of her own free will, in order not to abandon those she had just freed.  She was offered sufficient ships to get her and her unsullied to Westeros.  She declined.  The fact is, if she wanted to go to Westeros, she has the means to do so.  But it would likely mean the re-enslavement of those in Meereen, which she is unwilling to permit.

George is the author of this story, so he gets to make the decisions, arbitrary or otherwise.  He obviously preferred to delay Dany's arrival, and give her some experience ruling.  Because he is the author, he gets to make those decisions.

Oh, and I hate to break this to you:  The Starks, along with a couple others (Tyrion and Daenerys), are the main characters of the series.  So, if you don't like them, it is going to be a long, tiring slog.

 

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1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Of course, she's a character made by George. Everything in the books is arbitrarily decided by him.

No, it wouldn't. Charles II was never trying to build his own kingdom in the other side of the planet.

Even Dany isn't really interested in getting the Iron Throne, it's just something that she sometimes thinks is her duty.

 

Which is fine until the author starts making sweeping moral lessons based on those arbitrary decisions. Then it’s just a character responding to a very specific set of circumstances rather than “this is realistically what would happen”. The situation becomes unbelievable and in the real world life isn’t actually out to screw you. I ve GM’d before, I know what railroading the party looks like.

I mean come on. How can Slavers Bay be a centre of trade and yet be inaccessible by land and sea? This is an enormous plot hole and one that has a massive impact because it prevents Dany leaving and uniting with Aegon in Volantis. The decision to stay in Mereen is made for Dany. She is told “all the Unsullied will die” if she takes that road.

If Dany had arrived with three full grown dragons into the situation presented at the end of AFFC it is not impossible that the Lords would simply set aside Cersei. Which IMO is very likely to happen with Aegon once he gets the ball rolling. George put Aegon in precisely to prevent that occurring.

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Of course she is absent by choice.  She chose to remain in Meereen of her own free will, in order not to abandon those she had just freed.  She was offered sufficient ships to get her and her unsullied to Westeros.  She declined.  The fact is, if she wanted to go to Westeros, she has the means to do so.  But it would likely mean the re-enslavement of those in Meereen, which she is unwilling to permit.

George is the author of this story, so he gets to make the decisions, arbitrary or otherwise.  He obviously preferred to delay Dany's arrival, and give her some experience ruling.  Because he is the author, he gets to make those decisions.

Oh, and I hate to break this to you:  The Starks, along with a couple others (Tyrion and Daenerys), are the main characters of the series.  So, if you don't like them, it is going to be a long, tiring slog.

 

 

The slavers did not give her enough ships. It’s a half hearted peace offer by Doxos. That entire chapter is basically a retread of the Storm of Swords material where they realise it’s just not feasible. They discuss maybe travelling the Daemon road and resupplying with the handful of ships Qaarth offered. But neither plan is feasible and all end in her losing most of her army anyway.

George did not have the Slavers offer to transport Danys army (Like Volantis randomly does for Aegon BTW) because he realised she would probably say yes. It’s such an easy solution for the Slavers that he sidesteps it entirely. The fact she reexamines leaving at all suggests she’s quite prepared to do that. But is prevented by arbitrary contrivances within the story with the Doom of Valeria blocking the sea and the Daemon Road (Vic loses half of his fleet) blocking the land.

He kept her in Mereen so that Aegon could take the Iron Throne in her absence.  This means that rather than freeing Westeros from Lannister tyranny she has to fight her beloved Nephew and will be seen as the Mad Queen as a result. That’s not the result of Dany making any decisions. She does not decide the geographic isolation of Slavers Bay.

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2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Which is fine until the author starts making sweeping moral lessons based on those arbitrary decisions.

Like what?

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I ve GM’d before, I know what railroading the party looks like.

Irrelevant. A book isn't a RPG. In a RPG you have the DM and players, in a book you only have the DM.

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

How can Slavers Bay be a centre of trade and yet be inaccessible by land and sea?

Because they're in war.

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

This means that rather than freeing Westeros from Lannister tyranny she has to fight her beloved Nephew and will be seen as the Mad Queen as a result

Honestly, I would consider her a mad queen when she decided to crucify the masters. She's just getting worse and worse.

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12 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Like what?

Irrelevant. A book isn't a RPG. In a RPG you have the DM and players, in a book you only have the DM.

Because they're in war.

Honestly, I would consider her a mad queen when she decided to crucify the masters. She's just getting worse and worse.

 

Love is the Death of the Duty

Power corrupts

The law of unintended consequences

etc etc

The War is not a factor. It’s the environmental conditions of the Daemon Road and the Doom which would kill her army. Yet Slavers Bay is somehow trading with all of Essos? This is silly. How can Volantis/Qarth even send it’s armies safely there given the issues Victarion has?

Its entirely the same. Because it robs the characters of agency and leaves them simply responding to what’s happening to them.

Madness is a bad plot device because it means your character does not have agency so you can’t make sweeping moral statements if it’s a crazy person. Halo 5 has the exact same problem. If Cortana is just mad then moralising on the Greater Good is a waste of time.

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2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

This is silly. How can Volantis/Qarth even send it’s armies safely

They couldn't. Sea travel in the Middle Ages was risky. What happened to Victarian's fleet was common in real life too.

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6 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

They couldn't. Sea travel in the Middle Ages was risky. What happened to Victarian's fleet was common in real life too.

Great point, this danger was probably why Sea Snake Corlys Velayron was richer than the Lannisters during his time. 

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1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

They couldn't. Sea travel in the Middle Ages was risky. What happened to Victarian's fleet was common in real life too.

 

Qarth is able to move its army into Slavers Bay and there’s nothing to suggest the Volantine fleet won’t reach Meereen. These problems are only applied when it’s convenient for the plot. George needs Dany to stay put but he also needs all of her enemies to be able to pour in soldiers, material and sell swords from across Essos into Slavers Bay. 

Also this same Volantine fleet is magically able to teleport the Golden Company a long distance to the Stormlands without any serious problems. They end up landing them across most of the Stormlands rather than one place but that’s about it. Which simply speeds up the conquest of the Stormlands so it’s  not an actual negative.

Another example of convenience is that the entire Mereenese and Astapori fleets were destroyed despite Dany having the element of total surprise. That is a contrived reason to keep Dany in Slavers Bay. They would have been more concerned with the city being overrun by angry slaves than destroying the ships.

If Vic with the Iron Fleet and his Ironborn have such problems passing the Doom into Slavers bay how on Earth was Dany supposed to leave on some slaver ships or converted merchant vessels?

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9 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Qarth is able to move its army into Slavers Bay and there’s nothing to suggest the Volantine fleet won’t reach Meereen.

Of course they could reach Meereen, but not without losing many of it's ships. It just happens that Volantis is extremely powerfull, so even with certain loses, they would still be able to block Slaver's Bay.

13 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Also this same Volantine fleet is magically able to teleport the Golden Company a long distance to the Stormlands without any serious problems. They end up landing them across most of the Stormlands rather than one place but that’s about it. Which simply speeds up the conquest of the Stormlands so it’s  not an actual negative. 

Small pockets of leaderless mercenaries are easier to defeat than a huge host. Why do you think that it would actualy speed up their conquest?

Either way, it's easier to sail from Volantis to Westeros than from Volantis to Slaver's bay. Going to Westeros you could travel along the coast, but to Slaver's Bay you need to get into open sea as most captains don't want to came anywhere near Valyria.

18 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Another example of convenience is that the entire Mereenese and Astapori fleets were destroyed despite Dany having the element of total surprise.

What "element of total suprise" are you talking about?

19 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If Vic with the Iron Fleet and his Ironborn have such problems passing the Doom into Slavers bay how on Earth was Dany supposed to leave on some slaver ships or converted merchant vessels? 

Merchant vessels are not weak. A merchant fleet is more likely to travel into openn sea than war vessels

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4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Of course they could reach Meereen, but not without losing many of it's ships. It just happens that Volantis is extremely powerfull, so even with certain loses, they would still be able to block Slaver's Bay.

Small pockets of leaderless mercenaries are easier to defeat than a huge host. Why do you think that it would actualy speed up their conquest?

Either way, it's easier to sail from Volantis to Westeros than from Volantis to Slaver's bay. Going to Westeros you could travel along the coast, but to Slaver's Bay you need to get into open sea as most captains don't want to came anywhere near Valyria.

What "element of total suprise" are you talking about?

Merchant vessels are not weak. A merchant fleet is more likely to travel into openn sea than war vessels

 

Certain losses that won’t impact their fighting ability. Essentially a footnote.

Its very convenient that there happens to be a huge slaving kingdom interested in sending its armies thousands of miles away.

Because they can take ground quicker against a mostly empty Stormlands. Plus many Lords would throw open their gates. Aegon isn’t going to lose because if he did it mean Dany would be the good aunt avenging the bold young nephew. The writing is on the wall.

You don’t think having a magical fallout zone which dictates Danny’s actions is contrived? Entire books have hinged upon this thing being there. 

The fleet which took Aegon to Westeros would have had to have been the size of the Spanish Armada (which travelled a fraction of the distance BTW). It is ridiculous to believe that a feat which took years to organise and almost bankrupted the richest country in Europe would just spontaneously happen. It is an incredibly contrived situation after belabouring for several books how impossible it is for Dany to get ships and move a similar sized host. He does it because the plot needed it to happen.

The Astapori did not expect Dany to turn on them. The Mereenese did not expect people to sneak into the city and open the gates. They had no motivation to prepare to burn their own fleet and it only happens to prevent Dany leaving Meereen.

The Iron Fleet have spent a lifetime on the open sea. They also have the big ships needed for ocean sailing. Traders should not be travelling anywhere near Slavers Bay if the attrition rate is 50 plus percent.

 

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On 6/15/2019 at 3:35 PM, JNR said:

cough

I really think GRRM just forgot, while writing chapters, how many times he had used this particular device of characterization, invariably with Starks.

But, as I said earlier, he soon let it go.   By the end of ACOK Arya in particular has gone through hell and has developed far past such a problem.

It was a poor taste joke because Bran, being paralysed, doesnt do much running at all.. 

On 6/16/2019 at 2:56 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I think the preface mentions outright that I picked up the show and then the books on the recommendation of Danny’s storyline. Not sure how that’s some kind of reveal.

They are not nebulous or imagined reasons. She is one of the most iconic characters in the series. There’s a reason she became the face of the show and George got a prize for her Qaarth story.

That depends on how you define central. Dany is a central character and probably will be until the final book. Her themes are largely extensions of what George does in the other plots. Just better and more interesting. The issue is more to do with her possibly going down like the Hindenburg to force the ultimate Stark victory. Which I did not sign up for reasons I’ve already went into.

I am pretty sure I also mention liking the Game of Thrones part in the story. The Starks aren’t really involved in this. Jon is at the wall, Arya is in the Riverlands and Bran is becoming the God Emperor of Man on his Weirwood Throne. So not sure where you got the “don’t like political drama from”. It’s absence is what hurts the Starks. Not the other way around.

I am not sure how you read “Jamie and Theon are my favourites” and got that I like a morally black and white story. The fact that I don’t like the white as a white horse on unbroken snow Starks would suggest otherwise.

I believe I listed the earlier itinerary of stuff I read. Where they are all big series with loads of characters. Never had a problem with them and never said that I did. There’s a lot more books and characters in WoT than Ice n Fire. 

Plus we aren’t talking about plot and characters I do actually like here. 

As regards tone, I can take or leave the grimdark. What matters is if I get invested and care. If you don’t care, then it doesn’t matter if it’s tragedy or a power fantasy; apathy is the only result. 

 

 

 

GRRM won the nebula award for Blood of the Dragon, which is Dany’s a Game of Thrones chapters not the Qartheen storyline

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16 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Yeah, you should, I take the piss out of his name in my avatar because it took me until the third series of books of which he is the main character for Fitz to even break my top 5 characters of that world, although that is a much more well described world than Planetod so far.

 

As for Planetos, well I cannot stand Dany, sorry not true, I cannot stand Dragons, I can take or leave Dany, her chapters do literally nothing for me unless she has a strong supporting cast, Barristan, Jorah and Missandei. I adore the grim Medieval warfare, the vague hint of magic in the background, I liked Eddard and Robb Stark, was fond of Cat, don’t care for the others. In truth, once Stannis is done, so is my real investment in how things turn out, now there is a compelling character like some of the real worlds most famous generals, I will of course continue reading once he is gone, Davos, Jaime, Brienne, hoping that Tyrion and Littlefinger die, will Danearys really let herself down with regards to Aegon (Gods I hope so)? Jon Connington, the Baratheon succession (if they live and the Targs are gone I shall be crying with laughter), Lady Olenna, Queen Margery, Cersie’s downfall, Tormund and Mance, Oberyns paramour (Westeros’ last remaining voice of reason) all will be worth reading and less than you think will involve the Starks or characters you don’t like, it will still be a good read. The problem is that some characters make you like them too hard and make you turn on their possible enemies or downfalls, I really enjoy Stannis, he reads like one of the better historical people observed by Bernard Cornwells fictional ones, we are talking Alfred the Great and Wellington with an added dose of bastard, I will keep reading when he is gone, as hard as it will be, and will try not to turn my venom on those that bring him down

If one of your top 5* was not Kettricken then you can GTFO :P 

 

*as of book 3 anyway, there are simply way too many other great characters introduced in later books so i could forgive her omission.

 

Interestingly, Hobb released Assassin’s Apprentice around the same time as Thrones and has since completed her 16 book series in that world...(to an absolutely beautiful ending i may add)

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Certain losses that won’t impact their fighting ability. Essentially a footnote.

Because Volantis is a powerfull city, not some backwater feudal realm.

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Because they can take ground quicker against a mostly empty Stormlands

What makes you think that the Stormlands are empty? They basically  fought only one battle in the WotFK.

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The fleet which took Aegon to Westeros would have had to have been the size of the Spanish Armada

The Spanish Armada was nearly the double of the size of the GC ships. Plus, the commander of that fleet was inexperienced.

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

and it only happens to prevent Dany leaving Meereen.

It makes sense doesn't it? To starve her and her army there. The ghiscari have no reason to believe that she would just abandon all that she got in the Slaver's Bay for Westeros.

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Traders should not be travelling anywhere near Slavers Bay if the attrition rate is 50 plus percent.

But they do. Insurance already exist in Martinworld.

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I'm not a huge Stark man myself. I much prefer the southern storyline. I DESPISE the Dany storyline...at least what its become. However the books are so well written I find myself interested in the entire complex web of characters. I would say keep reading and give it a shot. After all you can always stop at anytime. In my opinion if you are asking this question your not ready to give it up yet. 

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