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Plain, Simple Tailor

Why Does Darkstar Matter?

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Dorkstar is a textbook example of how much GRRM's writing dipped in between Storm and Feast

The fact that George doesn't understand why fans eye roll at Dorkstar speaks volumes. It makes me cringe that in the Dornish Winds Chapters...

 

Spoiler

Even the Red Viper considered Dorkstar "poison"

Blatant attempt to get readers to "buy into" a shit character 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/15/2019 at 2:15 AM, Seams said:

A literary theory, if anyone wants to analyze Darkstar on this level. 

As pointed out, we have three known contemporary Daynes:

1) Allyria, betrothed to Beric Dondarrion

2) Edric, known as Ned, who meets Arya and tells her about Wylla

3) Gerold, from a "minor branch" of House Dayne and known as Darkstar.

I believe Beric is a symbolic Ned Stark. He was sent to the Riverlands by Ned, acting as Hand of the King. He also gives his "kiss of life" to Catelyn, sacrificing his own life. Kissing Catelyn is done only by Ned. (Except for Bran, remembering his mother's last kiss when he eats his weirwood paste. Edit and mea culpa: Of course Catelyn practices making out with Petyr Baelish in a flash back to their Jenny / Prince of Dragonflies roleplaying.) The Brotherhood without Banners members all purport to be king's men, working for King Robert, but their sense of honor seems more in keeping with Ned's character, who was in charge of the kingdom when they began their mission.

Ser Beric's betrothal to a Dayne is also a Ned Stark parallel because of the strong suspicion that Ned was the Quiet Wolf who wanted to dance with Ashara Dayne. 

Edric may be another symbolic Ned Stark. The nickname is an obvious clue. We read a conversation between Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon in an early chapter where Ned Stark produces the name Wylla as the woman with whom he had an affair and fathered a bastard. The fact that Edric Dayne tells the same story may be another clue that he is a Ned manifestation.

There is also a strong whiff of Podrick Payne in Edric, taking the form of the sound-alike first names as well as the super-squire behavior of protecting his master when he is felled in battle. (Edric pulls Ser Beric out of the river at the Mummer's Ford, which might create a parallel to Arya's direwolf, Nymeria, who pulls Catelyn's body out of the Green Fork of the Trident.) Podrick pushes Ser Mandon Moore into the Blackwater after the king's guard attacks Tyrion.

Is Gerold yet another Ned Stark? We are told that he is from a different, lesser branch of House Dayne, and is not a descendant of Arthur or his immediate family. He also seems to have a chip on his shoulder and resents the fact that the other House Dayne has the important sword, Dawn. 

It's an inference but, based on the other Dayne-related clues, I would say that Darkstar is a parallel for Jon Snow. Jon wishes that the could have the sword Ice and be the Lord of Winterfell. Like Darkstar, he has a secret that makes him dangerous. Like Darkstar, Jon's true relationship to the Stark family is ambiguous. 

It's possible that the maiming of Myrcella is like the killing of Qhorin Half-Hand. Anyone who hears about the incidents will believe that Darkstar tried to kill a princess and that Jon Snow was a traitor who turned on a Night's Watch brother. But there is another side to Jon Snow's killing of Qhorin, and there may be clarification coming if we ever hear Darkstar's version of what happened with Myrcella. 

Alternatively, Darkstar's sudden departure from Arianne's traveling party may be comparable to Jon Snow's departure from Ygritte and the other Free Folk at the ruined inn where they killed the silent old man. 

I guess we will know more when we read TWoW.

So how  does this work?.We insist that character x must have a parallel so we go looking for them?Who says they have to have a parallel?

Are we comparing Darkstar to Ned Stark and Jon Snow because he is from the south and they from the north?Does that symmetry please?

Setting up parallels,and worse,parallel inversions is not a good way to analyse imo.Fine if you happen to notice a pattern when reading,not so fine when everything needs to be shoehorned into a pattern that simply isn't there.

Or are we to make something of Stark being a partial anagram of Darkstar?I think not.

Edited by redriver
Opinion

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Doran made Darkstar an important character by labeling him "the most dangerous man in Dorne". While he is a skilled swordsman, I doubt Doran was referring to Darkstars combat efficiency, I believe he was referring to his knowledge. It could be Darkstar has information about the ToJ (I believe the Martells had something to do with it), or information on Dorans plots. I have a suspicion that Darkstar is going to take the role of a new Vulture King, and possibly Samwell Tarly is going to kill him with Heartsbane like the 1st vulture king. Darkstar is actively trying to throw Dorne into the war, and he even looks like a King Vulture (White with black streaks).

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GRRM clearly wants the Daynes to play some role, but without the gap Ned is going to be far too young. 

Darkstar's emo speech about his uncle being the only Dayne people remember and his sword might imply that he will make a move to get Dawn. that will have some significance later

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On 7/8/2019 at 8:47 AM, Ser Uncle P said:

Dorkstar is a textbook example of how much GRRM's writing dipped in between Storm and Feast

The fact that George doesn't understand why fans eye roll at Dorkstar speaks volumes. It makes me cringe that in the Dornish Winds Chapters...

 

  Hide contents

Even the Red Viper considered Dorkstar "poison"

Blatant attempt to get readers to "buy into" a shit character 

Darkstar is a textbook example of a character who has been foreshadowed to play a more important role in the upcoming story but is being judged by readers on a few paragraphs of existing content.  Why not wait to see how Darkstar gets portrayed in more detail before writing him off as an example of how GRRM has let you down?

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On 7/8/2019 at 5:47 PM, Ser Uncle P said:

Dorkstar is a textbook example of how much GRRM's writing dipped in between Storm and Feast

 

18 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Why not wait to see how Darkstar gets portrayed in more detail before writing him off as an example of how GRRM has let you down?

Same happened to Euron and the Ironnorns. Boring! What is the purpose of all this? Then Euron becomes a game changer. All Dorne's plots have not yet come to light. My interest for ASoIaF much increased with the expansion of the story. That some characters have grander objectives than sitting on a ugly, uncomfortable and deadly chair. It is the war for the IT which is now the boring part.

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4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

 

Same happened to Euron and the Ironnorns. Boring! What is the purpose of all this? Then Euron becomes a game changer. All Dorne's plots have not yet come to light. My interest for ASoIaF much increased with the expansion of the story. That some characters have grander objectives than sitting on a ugly, uncomfortable and deadly chair. It is the war for the IT which is now the boring part.

I didn't mention Euron or the Ironborn...but do you really believe that the Iron Island and Dornish arcs are as interesting or as well written as the Iron Throne arc from book 1-3? 

Is the writing as tight or characterisation as good as everything that occurs from the murder of Jon Arryn to the murder of Tywin Lannister? Would you care to show me examples? 

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On 6/22/2019 at 11:36 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The only other option that makes any sense would be that he's dangerous because of who he is. The Dayne side doesn't make him dangerous, so it would have to be the other half of the genes. Ran said he's not a bastard, so there's that to consider.  I argue for Martell blood, because of the venom references and the widow's peak. Not necessarily Oberyn. Could be Oberyn and Doran's dad. Could be Uncle Lewyn. Could be a female cousin we haven't heard about yet. If Darkstar is a Martell, by blood if not in name, he could sell them all out to the Iron Throne (no matter who's sitting on it) and become Prince of Dorne. 

I can see Darkstar having Martell blood, but he doesn't have a widow's peak.

Actually, the interesting thing about House Dayne is that they are the other House in Dorne that directly descends from Nymeria. This strikes me as being possibly important. 

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8 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

I didn't mention Euron or the Ironborn...but do you really believe that the Iron Island and Dornish arcs are as interesting or as well written as the Iron Throne arc from book 1-3? 

Is the writing as tight or characterisation as good as everything that occurs from the murder of Jon Arryn to the murder of Tywin Lannister? Would you care to show me examples? 

Visibly we don't have the same tastes. So I don't think I'll touch you.

The war for the IT is done and most characters have exposed their schemes. So they seem deep. But what is next, from Dorme, Meereen, other places is still mostly hidden. Or so I believe. In Meereen for example, I suppose many have extrapolated Daenerys leaving, and are playing the Game of Throne, so to occupy the vacuum when she'll leave. The Harpy is probably a tool, used by one to direct Daenerys against his enemies, the former ruling slavers? She is a pawn, like Cersei with LF and Varys. The concept of players and pawns is everywhere, at different levels. I believe Daenerys is a pawn in 3 different games, at Meereen (player the Harpy), for Westeros (Illrio &  Varys), and the most important, the war of the Ice And Fire (the Red Priests or Euron).

Plenty of other things. The mummer's game of the Manderlys, and with Davos. The ambiguity of Lady Dustin, Theon's motivation to take WF, to help the Starks once he got the IB. The way Roose sees Ramsay and his duty to his house. His explanations to Theon were... perturbing. Doran explaining the lives of his people are not his to waste in a personal vengeance. The story has more than lords butchering their people, just to expand their kingdom.

And Euron, maybe no more realistic than Joffrey or Cersei or Ramsay. But leading us to the roots of the LN and the origins of the Dragons and the Others.

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On 6/12/2019 at 9:09 PM, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Seriously. Why do people like this character? Why does he exist? 

We are constantly told that Darkstar is THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN IN DORNE, but we never see him actually do anything. He has a sword he barely uses, he’s just kind of a dick, and he tries to kill a defenseless child - what here makes him interesting? 

WHY DOES HE EXIST 

(oh, and please don’t say it’s because Jon’s mom is Ashara Dayne, if the sh*w was going to change one thing, it wouldn’t have been the central mystery of the series) 

Darkstar is a future potential adversary to Jaime.  

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On 7/12/2019 at 1:39 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

 

Same happened to Euron and the Ironnorns. Boring! What is the purpose of all this? Then Euron becomes a game changer. All Dorne's plots have not yet come to light. My interest for ASoIaF much increased with the expansion of the story. That some characters have grander objectives than sitting on a ugly, uncomfortable and deadly chair. It is the war for the IT which is now the boring part.

Exactly!  That's why I don't write out Marwyn either.  He's currently a character in the margins of the story but now Samwell could end up in his clutches.  I would like to see how this plays out as well.

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On 7/8/2019 at 2:32 PM, kleevedge said:

I have a suspicion that Darkstar is going to take the role of a new Vulture King

Agreed.  The cyclical reappearance of a Vulture King figure throughout history leaves it open to an appearance in the books.  Their is currently a Dornish army sitting in the Red Mountains and if Arianne stumbles into an alliance with Connington between ravens to papa.....expect the ancient (unexplained) animosity between Stony Dornish and Marcher lords to rise to the surface.  Stony Dornish Vulture King figures in the past always battled Marcher lords, and at this point their are few introduced Stony Dornish figures to fit the Vulture King role, expect for maybe Darkstar. 

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I think the place to start looking would be here.

Quote

 

"Prince Oberyn was full of stories." Garin had been with them as well that day; he was Arianne's milk brother, and they had been inseparable since before they learned to walk. "He told about Prince Garin, I remember, the one that I was named for."

"Garin the Great," offered Drey, "the wonder of the Rhoyne."

"That's the one. He made Valyria tremble."

"They trembled," said Ser Gerold, "then they killed him. If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great?" He snorted. "I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own." He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone.

 

This is the only time I can determine where the character touches upon a theme and isn't simply playing to Arianne's arc. I'd guess GRRM is readying to explore the virtues and trappings of a just and honourable resistance that is also a costly failure, and Darkstar has a role.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/12/2019 at 7:19 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I can see Darkstar having Martell blood, but he doesn't have a widow's peak.

Actually, the interesting thing about House Dayne is that they are the other House in Dorne that directly descends from Nymeria. This strikes me as being possibly important. 

My mistake on the widow's peak. Might be a piece of fan art got stuck in my head or something.

Do we know the Daynes descend from Nymeria? Ser Davos Dayne was her second husband, and they had a son, but does House Dayne as we know it come down through that son? 

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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12 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Do we know the Daynes descend from Nymeria? Ser Davos Dayne was her second husband, and they had a son, but does House Dayne as we know it come down through that son? 

It's an assumption on my part. It would definitely add an extra layer to the whole thing.

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Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's an assumption on my part. It would definitely add an extra layer to the whole thing.

It would be pretty cool, and add more royal blood to the mix.  That would also potentially add reason for Maekar to marry a Dayne: another vestige of Rhoynish blood in Dorne being bound to the Valyrian Targaryens not only to help solidify peace but as a defense against any more Blackfyre attempts. The more Dornish support they'd have, the better. Unless of course that match is one of those prophecy ice and fire, Valyrian and First Men things.

Ser Davos was a Sword of the Morning. King Vorian (who Nymeria sent to the Wall in chains) was a Sword of the Evening. I have questions about the latter designation and whether Darkstar will get either title.

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