I never got over...

[The Hoare]

51 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Tywin or Cersei wouldnt care less if two rebellious lords were at each others throats.

My entire point was that Balon shouldn't have declared himself king. After the Red Wedding the North had lost any coin to bargain. It was either accept whatever Tywin decided or die. That's why they accepted the Boltons as their overlords.

56 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Ironborn are famously known for not using battle formations, they instead attack as a horde of berserk warriors wielding axes and swords, similar to the Vikings.

Famously? Who said that? We have no reason to believe in that.  The vikings never fought like that either.

58 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Rodrik cassel was able to break the ironborn shieldwall with what little cavalry he had available in ACOK.  

Rodrik had much more soldiers than Dagmer.

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

They were able to keep control of the riverlands because it was very likely that the region was one of the least populated regions in Westeros

Pretty much like the current North. Only green boys survived Robb's stupidity.

[The Young Maester]

34 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

My entire point was that Balon shouldn't have declared himself king. After the Red Wedding the North had lost any coin to bargain. It was either accept whatever Tywin decided or die.

Yeah Balon should have declared for the Iron throne instead and take whatever holdings he could keep from the North. But its down to how badly the north lost the war. If the lannisters managed to invade the North, than yeah Balon could maintain his hold on the coast till the end of winter. But if the war ended in the same fashion as in canon, Roose wont let Ironborn hold his western coast, it hurts the prestige of the North and it undermines his rule to his bannermen. And if Roose decides to turn his eyes west (once the North's been pacified) the Ironborn wont be able to hold the western coast. Together with ryswells and dustins, Roose can raise a force of around 7k-8k, he can split these force into 3 different armies and still kick the Iron born out. And as i said before the Iron Throne wont care if rapist ironborn and savage northmen are having a go at eachother over some deserted land.

34 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

That's why they accepted the Boltons as their overlords.

Ryswell and Dustins accepted Roose Bolton, whilst other bannermen have hostages held by the Iron Throne. Their is a difference between accepting something and being forced to accept something at sword point. 

34 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Famously? Who said that? We have no reason to believe in that.  The vikings never fought like that either.

No character said its famous. But its common knowledge that the Ironborn are useless when fighting on the mainland. Asha herself told this to Theon when he took winterfell. No i agree the Vikings didnt fight like a senseless horde, but they still fought with axes and swords and used a shieldwall (like the Iron born and anglo-saxons).

34 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Rodrik had much more soldiers than Dagmer.

Yes dagmer was heavily outnumbered. But what i was trying to say was that Rodrik sent his cavalry at dagmer and the ironborn couldnt hold. Asha told theon that the Ironborn cant fight against disciplined cavalry. Iron born have no cavalry, and if you have no cavalry in this western europe based world, than you wont live very long. The Battle of the Green fork is an example of when an army with very little cavalry faces off against another army with a strong cavalry force. 

34 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Pretty much like the current North. Only green boys survived Robb's stupidity.

Nope many strong grown northmen survived. Roose's 4k took part on the butchery and all of them survived. The mountain clans didnt Join Robb's march and they were able to contribute around 3k clansmen to Stannis. Karstark avoided the Red Wedding, manderly only sent around 1.5k of his claimed 10k (tho more likely it is something like 7k), dustins and ryswells disliked Ned and they only sent like 400 men each, keeping their main strength at home. Now the rest of the houses are probably full of green boys and old men.

[The Hoare]

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

And as i said before the Iron Throne wont care if rapist ironborn and savage northmen are having a go at eachother over some deserted land. 

They would. Why the hell would the King allow two of his main loyal vassals to wage war agains't each other?

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Ryswell and Dustins accepted Roose Bolton, whilst other bannermen have hostages held by the Iron Throne. Their is a difference between accepting something and being forced to accept something at sword point.  

Irrelevant. The North only accept Roose because the IT had hostages and the ironborn kept hostages too.

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

But what i was trying to say was that Rodrik sent his cavalry at dagmer and the ironborn couldnt hold. Asha told theon that the Ironborn cant fight against disciplined cavalry.

The ironborn would never be able to stand agains't Rodrik anyway. They were being attacked on two front by Torrhen's Square garrison and Rodrik's soldiers. Asha was right, which was why conquering Winterfell was a stupidity. The ironborn have the advantage in any place with navigable rivers or the sea, which was why they made sure to not conquer any castle far from the sea.

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Nope many strong grown northmen survived. Roose's 4k took part on the butchery and all of them survived. The mountain clans didnt Join Robb's march and they were able to contribute around 3k clansmen to Stannis. Karstark avoided the Red Wedding, manderly only sent around 1.5k of his claimed 10k (tho more likely it is something like 7k), dustins and ryswells disliked Ned and they only sent like 400 men each, keeping their main strength at home. Now the rest of the houses are probably full of green boys and old men. 

None of these "strong northmen" are going to care about fighting the ironborn. Karstark(where many died in battle anyway) and Manderly are on the east coast, and more concerned with their own schemings than to any ironborn threat that would never affect their own lands. Lord Bolton would be more concerned with the threat that Stannis posed, as the Lannisters are the source of his power, than to a bunch of ironmen settling in some sparsely populated plot of land.

Even if Roose wanted to go into open war agains't the ironborn, it would take weeks to unite a host with enough men to face the ironborn, and during this time the ironborn would surely fortify their position.

[Loose Bolt]

If next winter is long and harsh even northern part of Sunset Sea will froze and so any IB still in the north would have to choose between leaving and snuffing out.

[The Young Maester]

11 hours ago, The Hoare said:

They would. Why the hell would the King allow two of his main loyal vassals to wage war agains't each other?

They defo aint loyal, the IT might think Roose is loyal cuz they gave him power, but they definetly know that Balon aint loyal. And yes the Iron Throne wont bother in intervening. The way this play out is, both Pyke and Winterfell get a raven from kings landing ordering them to cease hostilities and that the land was granted to the greyjoys by rights of the King. Balon dosent like being ordered around but he will cease hostilities if Roose will do the same. But the problem is can Roose afford to do that? He will continue fighting ironborn because he needs to look powerful to the rest of the North letting the Ironborn settle on that land, when the north is ruled under the flayed mans banner wont be acceptable because since when did the ironborn control that coast when the North was under the direwolf. Therefore he needs to retake the western coast, the IT be damned. Tywin wont risk invading the North, mayhaps he might send men to white harbour and offer some sort of reward to the manderlys, but in the end they just came out of a big war, and letting two untrustworthy vassals have a go at each other will be considered fine as long as they dont go full rebel mode. If the fighting dosent stop than Tywin will interfere to put an end to it, but thats once both sides have bled themselves enough and are too weak to oppose lannister-tyrell soldiers. 

12 hours ago, The Hoare said:

The ironborn would never be able to stand agains't Rodrik anyway. They were being attacked on two front by Torrhen's Square garrison and Rodrik's soldiers. Asha was right, which was why conquering Winterfell was a stupidity. The ironborn have the advantage in any place with navigable rivers or the sea, which was why they made sure to not conquer any castle far from the sea.

Im trying to point out why the Ironborn wont stand to greenlander army on the field. The Fight at Torrhens square is one of the only pitched battles i can remember that involves Ironborn and mainlanders.  Ironborn + cavalry = dead Ironborn. 

True Ironborn have an advantage at sea and rivers but only when they are fighting naval battles. If a strong northern force of roughly equal size as the Ironborn was waiting for them on the shores, and a battle on LAND occurred the Iron born would be running back to their ships. Its simple Iron born at sea are fearsome and dangerous but once they reach land they lack the discipline that the mainlanders have. One on One combat ill have my money on an Ironborn reaver against some knight. But an army of Ironborn facing off against a detachment of outriders or hedge knights, they'd be run down. Iron born can definitely defend against a siege such as deepwood mottte but than again all castles on the western shore of the North have poor defences.

12 hours ago, The Hoare said:

None of these "strong northmen" are going to care about fighting the ironborn. Karstark(where many died in battle anyway) and Manderly are on the east coast, and more concerned with their own schemings than to any ironborn threat that would never affect their own lands. Lord Bolton would be more concerned with the threat that Stannis posed, as the Lannisters are the source of his power, than to a bunch of ironmen settling in some sparsely populated plot of land.

Yeah Bolton wont care for the Iron born as long as Stannis is marching. But as i said once "the North is pacified" under Bolton rule, Roose can raise a host with the Ryswells and Dustins. And i doubt these two houses would be happy at all that the Ironborn are given free reign to rule a land so close to them. A force made up of ryswells-dustins-boltons is more than enough to be rid of the Ironborn. The Ryswells are supposed to be famous for their horses (tho we have no proof of it just a banner with a horse). Nonetheless these 3 houses were almost untouched by WOT5K.

12 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Even if Roose wanted to go into open war agains't the ironborn, it would take weeks to unite a host with enough men to face the ironborn, and during this time the ironborn would surely fortify their position.

Roose already has a host at Winterfell, but thats because Stannis the Mannis is marching, as soon as Stannis is defeated Roose can send his host westwards into Ironborn Land. 

Fortify their position they will, but what castle are they to fortify on the stony shore, cuz there arent any strong castles on that part of the North its all desolated. The Starks of old should have strengthen the stony shore and built strong keeps to fight the Ironborn.

They could build trenches and stuff to halt the northmen, but again this is foreign land to them, they are a far away from home and Roose and his men have the advantage of home ground whilst the Iron born will have to live off the food they bring from the seas.

[The Hoare]

34 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

He will continue fighting ironborn because he needs to look powerful to the rest of the North letting the Ironborn settle on that land,

If Roose decides to attack, all the hostages that the ironborn took would be killed. How would these northern lords react if all of their families were being murdered because Roose decided to start a war?

41 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

True Ironborn have an advantage at sea and rivers but only when they are fighting naval battles. If a strong northern force of roughly equal size as the Ironborn was waiting for them on the shores, and a battle on LAND occurred the Iron born would be running back to their ships. Its simple Iron born at sea are fearsome and dangerous but once they reach land they lack the discipline that the mainlanders have. One on One combat ill have my money on an Ironborn reaver against some knight. But an army of Ironborn facing off against a detachment of outriders or hedge knights, they'd be run down. Iron born can definitely defend against a siege such as deepwood mottte but than again all castles on the western shore of the North have poor defences. 

Why would the ironborn face a northern army in the open field? And we have no reason to believe that the ironborn are less disciplined than any mainlander.

To maintain a defensible position you don't really need a a especially strong castle. Just somewhere where you can prevent the knights from attacking.

52 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Yeah Bolton wont care for the Iron born as long as Stannis is marching. But as i said once "the North is pacified" under Bolton rule, Roose can raise a host with the Ryswells and Dustins

Would they truly risk so much starting a war soo close to the winter?

54 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

They could build trenches and stuff to halt the northmen, but again this is foreign land to them, they are a far away from home and Roose and his men have the advantage of home ground whilst the Iron born will have to live off the food they bring from the seas. 

Roose do not have the advantage of home ground there, the Dreadfort is on the other side of the North. The ironborn already conquered and took hostages from the major houses that actualy know the land.

[The Young Maester]

56 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

If Roose decides to attack, all the hostages that the ironborn took would be killed. How would these northern lords react if all of their families were being murdered because Roose decided to start a war?

Roose do not have the advantage of home ground there, the Dreadfort is on the other side of the North. The ironborn already conquered and took hostages from the major houses that actualy know the land.

Thats the thing, they wouldnt be murdered because those families hold no love for Bolton. From what i remember the Ironborn only took Robett Glovers children as prisoners, and Glovers hold no love for Roose anyways, so to Roose whether the glover childern die or not it wouldnt make a difference. Tallhart daughter is the only other hostage of high value that the ironborn have, and the rest of the northerners they took prisoners are too insignificant for anyone to care. So a tallhart daughter and 2 glover childern, two masterly houses whom lost most of their strength down south. 

Who has more knowledge of the land in the western coast of the North, Ryswell soldiers whom are bordered to the western shore and most likely have ambitions of being granted that said land by Roose. Or Iron born raiders whom are possibly a thousand miles away from the iron Islands and have never launched a full scale raid on the North since the days of of Dagon Greyjoy also known as the last Reaver. Whilst also holding 3 year old children as hostage and a 12-13 year old girl whom likely knows nothing of the stony shore since she has grown up in Torrhens square.

Holding grown men as prisoners and making him your guide is not that useful, compared to having a soldier willing to guide his fellow northmen through these lands and help achieve victory.

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Why would the ironborn face a northern army in the open field? And we have no reason to believe that the ironborn are less disciplined than any mainlander.

To maintain a defensible position you don't really need a a especially strong castle. Just somewhere where you can prevent the knights from attacking.

Yes as i said before Asha herself told this to Theon, they lack the discipline to fight on the mainland because they are a sea people. Their is a reason that the Iron born stopped trying to hold onto castles and towns, the Hoare kings were last iron born to try and hold onto landed castles. The Red Kraken and Dagon greyjoy instead stuck to raiding and looting all the riches they could find, especially in the westerlands, they never tried to hold onto keeps they couldn't defend, kill/loot/ and leave that is their way not kill/ loot/and stay. 

Yeah somewhere in the woods is a good place to set up defences, since cavalry dont fare well on the woods, and im sure they could win this battle, But again its down to a competent commander, and both Balon and Victorian dont know shit of land warfare, cuz they've never done it before. Plus they are both as dull as as cow. Roose Bolton in the other hand is a cunning commander and most probably knows the Iron borns weakness. 

In the Long term the Iron borns numbers will dwindle, trying to hold onto land two times bigger than the Iron Islands whilst also trying to supply your reavers from so far away would be a logistical nightmare.

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Would they truly risk so much starting a war soo close to the winter?

Yes, its the perfect opportunity to show foreigners what happens when you invade the Russia of Westeros during a winter. The land is covered with snow and, the crops on the field have either been collected or wasted due to the WOT5K. You will have old men and homeless ones with no food wanting to go to war and die an honorable death, rather then starve and be killed by winter (boring death).