Anyone else annoyed that Tyrion is hand again?

[BalerionTheCat]

Bronn is Master of Coin. The man who'd ask how much to kill Robert's bastards. The end is a joke.

[Beardy the Wildling]

21 hours ago, JBM said:

 

 I know this thread is mostly about Tyrion but it really bugs me that the show appears to see Jaime as dumb.  Tyrion is wittier and more well-read but Jaime has a lot of really insightful and thoughtful observations in the books.  It might be interesting to play with the idea that he sees himself as dumb but isn't, but the show just seems to endorse it.  As far as Tyrion as the "good" Lannister, Jaime is also one of the only characters we see expressing much concern about "the common man" (perhaps because of Brienne's influence) - when the raven comes from the Citadel, he thinks to himself about how unprepared Westeros is for winter and wonders how Tywin will feed the land before remembering Tywin is dead.  When they go to Pennytree, it really bothers him that the town-folk hide from him and his troops in the same way they would formerly have hidden from raiders.  He needs his troops to shelter in the town-folk's houses but orders his men to leave their provisions alone.   

People often were like "you don't understand this is an ADAPTATION" but is it really necessary so often to change such fundamental and important characteristics of a character?  With Jaime they so often seemed to make him and his storyline the opposite of what he was in the books rather than just flesh it out or adjust the logistics a little to blend better with the needs of a tv show.   They changed the character in ways that weren't necessary at all.  

I agree, I don't know why they made Jaime say 'HUR DUR, I'M THE DUMBEST LANNISTER' when, as you said, he's insightful at times. But given they made Jaime claim he never cared about innocents, I think it's safe to say D&D either don't understand Jaime Lannister, or flat-out contempt his more redeemable qualities because hur dur not real man or assholish (also, the disturbing likelihood they see Jaime/Cersei as an unironic romance story). It isn't the first or last time they've done this. It also isn't unlikely they did this to NCW for all the times he asked about the books, similar to how they killed off Barristan when his actor asked too many questions.

A list of other people they erased the redeemable qualities of in favour of assholish idiocy:

Brienne, to some extent - Her ability to fight and yell like a berserker is much more focused on than her concern for the common man and general holding up to the ideals of a true knight.

Bronn - Instead of raising Lollys Stokeworth's bastard child and even naming him Tyrion to troll Cersei and commemorate a boss he liked, he instead goes on the bad pussy patrol then spends his life in brothels because... that's what real men do?

Sam - Decides academia is for wimps and buys into Randyll's philosophy that maesters do nothing but read the achievements of better men, and also takes the piss out of Dolorous Edd for being a virgin, taking pride in his double oathbreaking and being rewarded for it by becoming Grand Maester.

Sansa - Instead of having a decent soul beneath her increasing ruthlessness and political savvy, Sansa ends up becoming every rape-revenge protagonist ever. She feeds her abuser to dogs with a smirk and becomes a total bitch to anyone and everyone because she can (and the few times she's actually logical, like showing concern about what dragons will eat, she seems to be treated as the bad guy? I get that you hate when smart people pick apart your story, D&D, but fucking hell)

Arya - Instead of a brainwashed, violent young girl concerned about losing her sense of self, Arya is instead treated as an unproblematic badass who we need to root for when she psychotically butchers men, bakes them into pies and feeds them to their patriarch. We're supposed to sympathise with her as she loses her virginity, and think that Sandor really gave her a chance to let go of her hatred and stop her vengeance when she already gave into her vengeance ages ago.

Sandor Clegane - From a man who has hidden, anti-war depth behind his cruel exterior who may or may not be a Gravedigger on the Pacifist Quiet Isle now, to a man who was in a pacifist community for five seconds, then saw everyone get killed because pacifism is for wimps, cucks, then took up an axe and started killing again like it was nothing, who went out giving in to violence (but we're supposed to think it's okay because he 'saved' Arya).

I could go on and on and fucking on. It's a joke.

[Apoplexy]

33 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I agree, I don't know why they made Jaime say 'HUR DUR, I'M THE DUMBEST LANNISTER' when, as you said, he's insightful at times. But given they made Jaime claim he never cared about innocents, I think it's safe to say D&D either don't understand Jaime Lannister, or flat-out contempt his more redeemable qualities because hur dur not real man or assholish (also, the disturbing likelihood they see Jaime/Cersei as an unironic romance story). It isn't the first or last time they've done this. It also isn't unlikely they did this to NCW for all the times he asked about the books, similar to how they killed off Barristan when his actor asked too many questions.

This is what bugged me the most about the show 's portrayal of Jaime and Cersei. Is that they showed Jaime and Cersei like some tragic lovers out of Shakespeare. And this setting aside the incest (which makes me gag).

Let's just say that in Westeros, where monarchs wed siblings, the incest part of it seems less egregious. But they are utterly toxic together, in large part because of Cersei. She brings out the worst in Jaime and he has centered his whole life around being with Cersei, or rather being at her beck and call. And she doesn't seem to care too much about him, he is just her means to spite Robert and get what she wants. Portraying their relationship as a romantic one was just atrocious.

Jaime is my favorite POV character to read in the books. We only knew him through other people's perspectives in book 1 and 2, and then we hear his inner thoughts in book 3, which I found fascinating. He was so different than than the facade he put up in front of other people. The show messed him up real bad.

[Beardy the Wildling]

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

This is what bugged me the most about the show 's portrayal of Jaime and Cersei. Is that they showed Jaime and Cersei like some tragic lovers out of Shakespeare. And this setting aside the incest (which makes me gag).

Let's just say that in Westeros, where monarchs wed siblings, the incest part of it seems less egregious. But they are utterly toxic together, in large part because of Cersei. She brings out the worst in Jaime and he has centered his whole life around being with Cersei, or rather being at her beck and call. And she doesn't seem to care too much about him, he is just her means to spite Robert and get what she wants. Portraying their relationship as a romantic one was just atrocious.

Jaime is my favorite POV character to read in the books. We only knew him through other people's perspectives in book 1 and 2, and then we hear his inner thoughts in book 3, which I found fascinating. He was so different than than the facade he put up in front of other people. The show messed him up real bad.

I'll be honest, part of me doubts the Ds read past the Red Wedding. We all know that was the moment they wanted to adapt most.

[Apoplexy]

3 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I'll be honest, part of me doubts the Ds read past the Red Wedding. We all know that was the moment they wanted to adapt most.

They were probably disappointed that there wasn't another moment in the books as shocking as the RW. So they just shrugged and tried to invent as many 'shocking' moments as they could, disregarding character development.

[CrypticWeirwood]

On 6/16/2019 at 4:12 PM, Apoplexy said:

Jaime is my favorite POV character to read in the books. We only knew him through other people's perspectives in book 1 and 2, and then we hear his inner thoughts in book 3, which I found fascinating. He was so different than than the facade he put up in front of other people. The show messed him up real bad.

Much and more that makes sense only when you have access to the innermost thought of the POV character's head failed to transfer from the books to a purely visual format. You cannot replace pages and pages of thoughts and recollections, memories and resonances, with voiceless looks with specially arched eyebrows or pouted lips. 

[Apoplexy]

53 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Much and more that makes sense only when you have access to the innermost thought of the POV character's head failed to transfer from the books to a purely visual format. You cannot replace pages and pages of thoughts and recollections, memories and resonances, with voiceless looks with specially arched eyebrows or pouted lips. 

I've heard about a lot of the actors complaining about their characters behaving inconsistently. It seems the actors gave more thought about their characters than the writers and directors. And some of the dialog was just atrocious, which made things worse.

[Rose of Red Lake]

I'm sorry, I hate book Tyrion so slamming D&D's characterization is irrelevant to me. George's decision to give his super special favorite the sweet ending - rewarding him with his dream job - while everyone gets to choke on the bitterness of being alone, punished, or emotionally damaged. 

I'm sure he will write it as "Poor Tyrion he doesnt want this anymore and now he'll have to do this" or "He'll have to repent for his sins by rebuilding the 6 kingdoms, but nobody will ever know his name, Poor Tyrion" or "He's haunted by Tysha and Tywin's ghosts, but he has to wake up everyday and play the game of thrones that he loves, poor Tyrion"

[BalerionTheCat]

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

...he has to wake up everyday and play the game of thrones that he loves, poor Tyrion"

I doubt GRRM ending will have much in common with the last half hour of GOT. Tyrion killed his father for nothing but bitter revenge, even if justified. I believe the legends of kinslaying will bite him in the ass. Book Tyrion is egocentric. I don't think the end will be sweet to him.

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I doubt GRRM ending will have much in common with the last half hour of GOT. Tyrion killed his father for nothing but bitter revenge, even if justified. I believe the legends of kinslaying will bite him in the ass. Book Tyrion is egocentric. I don't think the end will be sweet to him.

I imagine he told them "Tyrion - hand" just like he told them "Bran - king." 

[Dreadscythe95]

No, I am annoyed that his character was ruined by the writers.

[CrypticWeirwood]

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I doubt GRRM ending will have much in common with the last half hour of GOT. Tyrion killed his father for nothing but bitter revenge, even if justified. I believe the legends of kinslaying will bite him in the ass. Book Tyrion is egocentric. I don't think the end will be sweet to him.

Even if Jaime and Tyrion each killed the other’s father rather than his own, Tywin would still be Tyrion's first cousin once removed.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Even if Jaime and Tyrion each killed the other’s father rather than his own, Tywin would still be Tyrion's first cousin once removed.

I firmly believe Jaime and Tyrion each killed their own father. Cersei and Joffrey had more in common with the bad Targaryens than with Tywin. Tyrion and Cersei had a few quotes comparing them to the Targaryens. Even the incest. Daenerys and Cersei were half sisters and had the same unrelentless for power.  Great parallels IMO. While Tyrion is eveything like Tywin.

[Mystical]

Tyrion isn't just the hand. He's effectively the King. We have all seen how creepy the 3ER is, no way will that guy ever present over a court or people in general. He doesn't have much words and when he does it's creep factor overload. So that will be Tyrion's job. And we have all seen the council meeting. Bran comes in for 20 seconds, does nothing and then goes in search of his bong.

So Benioff, I mean Tyrion, is actually the King. Tyrion, the kinslayer and kingslayer, something that is known all the way to Braavos. The guy whose loyalty to his family brought down the wall. The Hand of the woman who torched King's Landing. And he's effectively the King now. Because he's so awesome and witty and clever.

[btfu806]

I am annoyed with everything regarding Tyrion the past few years. The whole speech by him (the great story) was insanely stupid and annoying. Why would anyone even listen to him at this point? Such poor writing.

[Apoplexy]

7 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I am annoyed with everything regarding Tyrion the past few years. The whole speech by him (the great story) was insanely stupid and annoying. Why would anyone even listen to him at this point? Such poor writing.

Tyrion was a fan favorite. I suppose the show runners wanted him to be kingmaker and it just made it happen against all logic.

[Rose of Red Lake]

When GRRM kept saying a good man doesn't necessarily make a good king, I guess he was laying the groundwork for Tyrion. Shitty person, effective ruler. His own ode to Richard III and Richard Nixon. I find this annoying.

[JBM]

On 6/20/2019 at 1:12 PM, Apoplexy said:

Tyrion was a fan favorite. I suppose the show runners wanted him to be kingmaker and it just made it happen against all logic.

This reminds me that I always thought that little bit in the books where Jaime reflects on the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (Cole?) known as the Kingmaker and how it was bad for the Kingsguard to get mixed up in politics was a bit weird and stuck out to me.  It just rang my "dramatic irony" alarm loudly.  I've long had a theory because of that that Jaime would ultimately be involved in some important way in determining who the final king is in the series.  Maybe it's just another thing they took from him and gave to Tyrion!  Or maybe it was just GRRM "gardening" and planting a seed just to see what might happen with it, but it won't go anywhere.   

[BlackLightning]

On 6/19/2019 at 6:14 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I imagine he told them "Tyrion - hand" just like he told them "Bran - king." 

I doubt it.

[Apoplexy]

6 hours ago, JBM said:

This reminds me that I always thought that little bit in the books where Jaime reflects on the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (Cole?) known as the Kingmaker and how it was bad for the Kingsguard to get mixed up in politics was a bit weird and stuck out to me.  It just rang my "dramatic irony" alarm loudly.  I've long had a theory because of that that Jaime would ultimately be involved in some important way in determining who the final king is in the series.  Maybe it's just another thing they took from him and gave to Tyrion!  Or maybe it was just GRRM "gardening" and planting a seed just to see what might happen with it, but it won't go anywhere.   

It was Criston Cole I believe. And I wouldn't be surprised if the showrunners gave something from Jaime's plot to tyrion.

Full disclosure, Jaime is my favorite POV character to read. So this might just be wishful thinking on my part. But based on the way the final episode ended, my hope is that Jaime does something that makes him kingmaker (or kingslayer) again, because of which he is either removed from the KG or is demoted and thus Brienne becomes LC. And it is kinda an open secret that they are involved, which makes their ending somewhere in the middle of perfect and terrible.