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Kaguya

Anyone else annoyed that Tyrion is hand again?

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On 6/15/2019 at 12:39 AM, Apoplexy said:

I found tyrion insufferable since season 6. I honestly would have preferred him dying and Jaime living, trying to correct the wrongs he did supporting Cersei.

This would have been perfect. 

 

Tyrion should have died in 8x04 instead of Missandei 

Edited by Kaguya

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Tyrion being hand is the most anti grrm thing ever. 

He is a known kinslayer and kingslayer but nobody cares. He was the hand of a person that killed millions of innocents but nobody cares. He was an awful hand that was wrong all the time but nobody cares. He conspired against his queen to protect his family but nobody cares. The small folk dislike him and the lords don t respect him but nobody cares... 

Tyrion actions just have no consequences and he gets what he always wanted... At the end tyrion had no qualification to be hand... 

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7 minutes ago, divica said:

Tyrion being hand is the most anti grrm thing ever. 

He is a known kinslayer and kingslayer but nobody cares. He was the hand of a person that killed millions of innocents but nobody cares. He was an awful hand that was wrong all the time but nobody cares. He conspired against his queen to protect his family but nobody cares. The small folk dislike him and the lords don t respect him but nobody cares... 

Tyrion actions just have no consequences and he gets what he always wanted... At the end tyrion had no qualification to be hand... 

After one piece of rotten advice too many, Daenerys should have just nailed his head to her battle standard.

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I must say that after all this time since the show has ended, this continues to blow my mind. Like I'm not even angry yet, I just can't even process it.

As of the beginning of A Feast for Crows, no one in Westeros likes Tyrion. Absolutely no one. From what I can tell based on the books and what little good the TV show managed to do, the very mention of Tyrion's name is likely to make people want to vomit, fight or flee.

In fact, if that Mercy sample chapter is to be believed, it seems like he is wildly unpopular even in Braavos.

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Another issue is that he has nothing stopping him from being the heir to CR? They should have had Dany turn it to rubble, at least then the question of whether Tyrion inherited it or not could be closed. Because he really shouldn't. But I can see how GRRM's favoritism might play a role in this nonsense. 

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9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Another issue is that he has nothing stopping him from being the heir to CR? They should have had Dany turn it to rubble, at least then the question of whether Tyrion inherited it or not could be closed. Because he really shouldn't. But I can see how GRRM's favoritism might play a role in this nonsense. 

Casterly Rock was a joke in the show, might as well have been rubble.

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There's plenty of things wrong with the way Tyrion is written but the idea that he never gave any good advice to Dany is just laughable. He's the one who talked her down from burning her enemies' ships by reminding her that she kinda needed ships to set sail towards Westeros. He talked her down from burning Astapor and Yunkai to the ground which would have destroyed any chance she had of gaining anyone's trust in Westeros, including Jon's. He carefully wrote the summons asking Jon to come to Dragonstone because Dany lacked tact, and he persuaded her to let Jon mine the dragonglass which ended up saving the world. He told her not to fly beyond the Wall which is where she practically handed the NK a dragon. Her going against his advice to burn the Tarlys was the beginning of her downfall. Finally, he and Varys advised her to let the remaining of Cersei's allies abandon her and for the new Prince of Dorne to join their side, but she couldn't wait a few weeks.

The problem with show!Tyrion is that his job was to constantly reign in Dany's impulses and steer her clear from committing atrocities. Nine out of ten times his job was to talk her off the ledge and remind her that burning people alive was bad. And a large part of that is obviously due to the writing, but Tyrion's function was very different from his function as a Hand during season two. 

That said, Tyrion's true desire was to become Lord of Casterly Rock, which his position as Hand of the Kind robbed him of. It felt more like a punishment than anything since the realm was one big clusterfuck. It's going to be worse in the books where Martin won't just keep the Dothraki on Dragonstone, fAegon will fight the Tyrells and Lannisters, Euron will have a bigger role, and the Others will be a much bigger threat. Why would anyone want to be in charge of overseeing the aftermath of that? 

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1 hour ago, WolfOfWinter said:

There's plenty of things wrong with the way Tyrion is written but the idea that he never gave any good advice to Dany is just laughable.

He did give some good advice that centered around Dany's perception problems. He was trying to help her look like a savior, not a scary mass murderer. It's just kind of hard to manage that while launching an invasion. He was in an impossible spot. But in the grand scheme of things, no one blames the advisors, they blame the monarch. No one really cares what Aerys' 5,000 Hands did or didn't do. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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3 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

There's plenty of things wrong with the way Tyrion is written but the idea that he never gave any good advice to Dany is just laughable. He's the one who talked her down from burning her enemies' ships by reminding her that she kinda needed ships to set sail towards Westeros. He talked her down from burning Astapor and Yunkai to the ground which would have destroyed any chance she had of gaining anyone's trust in Westeros, including Jon's. He carefully wrote the summons asking Jon to come to Dragonstone because Dany lacked tact, and he persuaded her to let Jon mine the dragonglass which ended up saving the world. He told her not to fly beyond the Wall which is where she practically handed the NK a dragon. Her going against his advice to burn the Tarlys was the beginning of her downfall. Finally, he and Varys advised her to let the remaining of Cersei's allies abandon her and for the new Prince of Dorne to join their side, but she couldn't wait a few weeks.

The problem with show!Tyrion is that his job was to constantly reign in Dany's impulses and steer her clear from committing atrocities. Nine out of ten times his job was to talk her off the ledge and remind her that burning people alive was bad. And a large part of that is obviously due to the writing, but Tyrion's function was very different from his function as a Hand during season two. 

That said, Tyrion's true desire was to become Lord of Casterly Rock, which his position as Hand of the Kind robbed him of. It felt more like a punishment than anything since the realm was one big clusterfuck. It's going to be worse in the books where Martin won't just keep the Dothraki on Dragonstone, fAegon will fight the Tyrells and Lannisters, Euron will have a bigger role, and the Others will be a much bigger threat. Why would anyone want to be in charge of overseeing the aftermath of that? 

Let's see:-

1.  Striking a deal to keep slavery for 7 years.  The Slavers played him for a fool.

2.  Talking her out of hitting the Red Keep, which would finish the war in 30 minutes, in favour of a strategy that gets her allies wiped out.

3. Whining about the Tarlys, despite the fact that killing oath breakers and traitors, such as Boltons, is standard.

4.  Telling Dany not to fly North of the Wall.  I'm sure that leaving the King in the North and Tormund to die would really endear her to her subjects.

5.  Telling her to trust Cersei.

The guy was a disaster as Hand.

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Let's see:-

1.  Striking a deal to keep slavery for 7 years.  The Slavers played him for a fool.

2.  Talking her out of hitting the Red Keep, which would finish the war in 30 minutes, in favour of a strategy that gets her allies wiped out.

3. Whining about the Tarlys, despite the fact that killing oath breakers and traitors, such as Boltons, is standard.

4.  Telling Dany not to fly North of the Wall.  I'm sure that leaving the King in the North and Tormund to die would really endear her to her subjects.

5.  Telling her to trust Cersei.

The guy was a disaster as Hand.

He wasn't even Hand for that first one. Daenerys made him hand in the Season 6 finale after the Siege of Meereen. 

I'm not even sure why he trusted Cersei, particularly knowing how unscrupulous she was.

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Let's see:-

1.  Striking a deal to keep slavery for 7 years.  The Slavers played him for a fool.

2.  Talking her out of hitting the Red Keep, which would finish the war in 30 minutes, in favour of a strategy that gets her allies wiped out.

3. Whining about the Tarlys, despite the fact that killing oath breakers and traitors, such as Boltons, is standard.

4.  Telling Dany not to fly North of the Wall.  I'm sure that leaving the King in the North and Tormund to die would really endear her to her subjects.

5.  Telling her to trust Cersei.

The guy was a disaster as Hand.

1. He was screwed either way. He was trying to make a deal on behalf of the Mother of Dragons when she'd ditched town and there were no dragons to help him win. He wasn't dumb; he just had no power to enforce his will.

2. The Red Keep where Cersei intended to gather as many civilians as possible? Wasn't Dany's whole shtick that she was different from all the other rulers, and that she only invaded Westeros to free them from oppression? Cool.

3. Oath to whom as Tarly even pointed out? Olenna turned to a foreign invader with a Dothraki army for help out of vengeance and in the process screwed her own people over. Besides, Tyrion advised her to behead Randyll and imprison Dickon. She refused because she didn't believe in forcing people in chains. She just happened to forget her prisoner Jon Snow back on Dragonstone, and burned two men alive when people already feared she was a pyromaniac like her daddy. We can debate the morality of it all day, but from a strategic POV, it just reinforced that she was a hypocrite who had no desire to be different from all the previous tyrants. It's also what turned several other characters against her, including Varys.

4. Flying beyond the Wall had no positive impact on her relationship with the North. It didn't benefit her in any way beyond Jon forcing his people to kneel. But it did give the NK a dragon and the means to cross the Wall, so cool.

5. Yes, that was stupid.

So basically the argument is that Tyrion gave Dany bad advice as well. I never negated that. All I did was point out that Tyrion gave her good advice as well. Too bad he ended up with a leader who never had a good idea beyond wanting to burn shit to the ground. This is a person who thought that legitimizing a Baratheon bastard was some epic machiavellian move on her part. She was doomed for failure. 

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You don't win wars by being nice.  You win them by burning shit to the ground.  Tyrion's advice caused terrible harm.

Even in our and age, no general would hesitate to use drones and bombers on the Red Keep.  

Tarly sided with a woman who murdered his queen and liege Lord. Then he sacked his castle, slaughtered his comrades, and his lord's mother was forced to drink poison.  That is dreadful conduct in any time and place.  Dickon's conversation with Jaime showed he knew what he did was wrong.

Varys (who had no compunction about committing murder prior to this point) getting upset about the Tarlys is a silly plot device).

Edited by SeanF

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The ending is bad, but it just doesn't matter.

 

All the show had to do was end with enough juice and excitement and support to keep the series from sinking, and then everyone can would and should go back to every other part of the universe and just re-visit the lore and moments endlessly without worrying about whether something seismic is happening on the other end.

 

Like the point of the ending is it's time to celebrate, that the series is way way more than the sum of a few points at the end, that's what's most important, not destroying all the effort, not whether it ended well at all.

 

It's a break point, the entire show could of been destroyed because of one episode or so, that's how shows work basically like the Sopranos spent 8 years on whatever, and then was annihilated from the earth because of one or two mistakes at the end.

 

Game of Thrones just plain wasn't annihilated at all, that's honestly all that mattered after Episode 4 or so. It's here, that means everyone here on this forum can talk about all of it comfortably and read the books over and over and get collector's editions of the show because they'll sell for a lot in 2030 or whatever.

Like it's total annihilation or everything is totally saved, it makes no sense, but that's how it works and that's how it worked. And everything in Game of Thrones is totally saved so that's awesome.

Edited by Artimicia

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