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Br16

I think I've figured out how Valyrian Steel is made.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I never said anything about R'hlor. Martin has pretty much said that there are no gods. A person or people being at the core of the legend of Azor Ahai, is something different. I believe there was a sorcerer, likely from Asshai, who played an integral part in the events of the Long Night. For conveniences sake, I call him Azor Ahai. 

As for king's blood, it seems a stretch to begin with and it depends largely on definition. For instance if you count each and every chieftain, sure, or if you count back far enough. There should be a few hundred descendants of Aegon IV alone. I think however the particular type of sacrifice refers to an actual reigning King. Moreover the particular legend does not point in any way shape or form to the sacrifice of royalty. 

It may point however to the sacrifice of a spouse. ETA. Not in reference to making swords, but in reference to the role of the PtwP. Dany has sacrificed both spouse and child and Jon abandoned his wilding wife on the eve of battle to fight on the other side. 

I don't think that Martin said that there are no gods, just that they won't show up Illiad style. Plus, historically in our world, sorcery happens when a person (sorcerer) invokes the unseen spiritual realm, offers something as a sacrifice or offering, and if all goes according to his wish, he has received supernatural support. So I feel there is always the possibility that R'hllor helped behind the scenes.

As for definition of King's Blood, I think it qualifies as long as it is within reason. Thus, if hypothetically,  the Valyrians sacked Casterly Rock, I feel Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and perhaps Kevan would count. So five swords. If they  continue on to a Lannister cousin and the sword breaks while tempered, then they stop. Moreover, I feel the legend points out that if you want nice things with fire magic, it'll cost you in blood. How much and what quality depends on the goal. VS sword/Kings Blood seems a good match from a scarcity point of view.

I do agree with your points on the PtwP though.

 

Edited by Br16

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37 minutes ago, Br16 said:

I don't think that Martin said that there are no gods, just that they won't show up Illiad style. Plus, historically in our world, sorcery happens when a person (sorcerer) invokes the unseen spiritual realm, offers something as a sacrifice or offering, and if all goes according to his wish, he has received supernatural support. So I feel there is always the possibility that R'hllor helped behind the scenes.

As for definition of King's Blood, I think it qualifies as long as it is within reason. Thus, if hypothetically,  the Valyrians sacked Casterly Rock, I feel Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and perhaps Kevan would count. So five swords. If they  continue on to a Lannister cousin and the sword breaks while tempered, then they stop. Moreover, I feel the legend points out that if you want nice things with fire magic, it'll cost you in blood. How much and what quality depends on the goal. VS sword/Kings Blood seems a good match from a scarcity point of view.

I do agree with your points on the PtwP though.

 

Martin has said that no deities of his fictional mythology will appear. That means that they don't exist as entities with agencies, actions and intentions attributable to them within the narrative. Or in other words we won't see R'hlor, the Great Other, Him of many Faces, or the Seven anymore than we have seen them so far. 

As to Valyrian steel, I guess nothing precludes it needing King's blood apart from being impractical and a matter of definition, but nothing points to it either and certainly not the Nissa Nissa parable. The scarcity and expense could be due to many factors. It could be that only a few artisans could create them, or it required dragons. Ultimately I think that they were never more than trinkets and symbols to the Targaryens and never considered either for commercial exploitation or of particular importance. 

As for Azor Ahai the original, I think he did create a flaming sword or more importantly a steel sword with the properties of dragonglass because he needed something to effectively defend himself with against the Others. So other than being a useful weapon I don't think Lightbringer had any other significance, but became part of his mythos as his actual history faded into memory. 

Then again a flaming sword might be needed to stab the Heart of Winter with. 

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3 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Martin has said that no deities of his fictional mythology will appear. That means that they don't exist as entities with agencies, actions and intentions attributable to them within the narrative. Or in other words we won't see R'hlor, the Great Other, Him of many Faces, or the Seven anymore than we have seen them so far. 

As to Valyrian steel, I guess nothing precludes it needing King's blood apart from being impractical and a matter of definition, but nothing points to it either and certainly not the Nissa Nissa parable. The scarcity and expense could be due to many factors. It could be that only a few artisans could create them, or it required dragons. Ultimately I think that they were never more than trinkets and symbols to the Targaryens and never considered either for commercial exploitation or of particular importance. 

As for Azor Ahai the original, I think he did create a flaming sword or more importantly a steel sword with the properties of dragonglass because he needed something to effectively defend himself with against the Others. So other than being a useful weapon I don't think Lightbringer had any other significance, but became part of his mythos as his actual history faded into memory. 

Then again a flaming sword might be needed to stab the Heart of Winter with. 

I disagree with your interpretation of Martin's statement. Not appearing is not the same as no agency or no work behind the scenes in the spiritual realm. I and some of my friends have always read it as being implied that Mel's magic was powered by R'hllor. This is the beauty of Martin's writing. If gods like R'hllor did manifest in personal form, I would be disappointed since the mystery would be lost. It's like the Bible, you get a prophet and his miracles, but you don't get to see or talk to god in person form, yet you know he's operating behind the scenes, just like how R'hllor reveals his will through fire visions. 

And I still  feel the Nissa Nissa parable is one of the biggest hints on how fire and blood magic works. The more important the goal, the higher the cost. You want a sword like light bringer, water or a lion won't do. 

But I do agree that for the original Azor Ahai, the sword was more symbolism than actual solution.

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2 hours ago, Br16 said:

I disagree with your interpretation of Martin's statement. Not appearing is not the same as no agency or no work behind the scenes in the spiritual realm. I and some of my friends have always read it as being implied that Mel's magic was powered by R'hllor. This is the beauty of Martin's writing. If gods like R'hllor did manifest in personal form, I would be disappointed since the mystery would be lost. It's like the Bible, you get a prophet and his miracles, but you don't get to see or talk to god in person form, yet you know he's operating behind the scenes, just like how R'hllor reveals his will through fire visions. 

I don't see how Martin's statement is subject to interpretation. We won't see gods. That's it. Calling visions R'hlor's will is your prerogative, but it changes nothing. 

 

2 hours ago, Br16 said:

And I still  feel the Nissa Nissa parable is one of the biggest hints on how fire and blood magic works. The more important the goal, the higher the cost. You want a sword like light bringer, water or a lion won't do. 

That maybe so, but it is a far cry from claiming that it points to valyrian steel swords being made with king's blood. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I don't see how Martin's statement is subject to interpretation. We won't see gods. That's it. Calling visions R'hlor's will is your prerogative, but it changes nothing. 

I disagree, I think it is very clear that Martin is merely saying we won't see R'hllor etc. in person, but he has always been acting within the story with full agency from the spiritual realm. Its plainly evident when I read it, after all, Mel got those visions from someone. 

19 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

That maybe so, but it is a far cry from claiming that it points to valyrian steel swords being made with king's blood. 

Though a theory, but based on what we have to go on and logic, I don't think it's far cry at all. 

Edited by Br16

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9 hours ago, Br16 said:

You might if you want to temper a whole sword. Regarding the dragon bone,  4 of Aenar's 5 dragons died  on Dragonstone yet the Targ's still only have two VS swords. I'm pretty sure someone as highly placed as he was would know the spells. The fact he could not make more could be because he lacked the rare sacrifice needed, and didn't want to get into trouble to obtain it just to make an extra sword.

Moreover, Aeron suspected that Euron's armor was VS, and if it were, Aeron thought it might cost a kingdom even before the doom.

The Targaryens weren't a powerful family in the Freehold. So Aenar was not some powerful lord. He had dragons but in a place where other families had dragons, were richer than he was and more powerful. He wasn't a smith and as far as we know, he wasn't a sorcerer to know the spells.

It's possible that there was some sort of guild the smiths who forged the steel belonged to and where they kept their secrets, just like the alchemists. 

Quote

Lastly, even if there were once 50,000 VS swords, that would still be average production of 10 per year over Valyria's 5000 year history. 

It doesn't mean they needed 10 kings per sword. It might mean that the process is long and arduous which explains would also explain why it was expensive before the Doom. 

But swords are not the only things the smiths are making. There are daggers, the suit of armor you mentioned and I'm assuming it's not the only one ever made, Aegon's crown was made from Valyrian steel, they made axes and arakhs as well.

And maybe it's not something that's mass produced like regular objects with regular steel. A person who wants a sword made from Valyrian steel may have had to order it. Blackfyre was a bastard sword, but Dark Sister was made for a woman's hand, and Ice was apparently as tall as I am (or taller). 

 

Quote

Moreover, the dark color of VS swords could be a hint of the blood sacrifice (i.e. blood darkens when it solidifies).

Blood becomes brown when it dries. Mixing steel with dragonbone will give it that dark grey color, though. And there are 19 dragon skulls in the Red Keep. We get an information dump on dragonbone almost right off the bat. I think that's important. 

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22 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Valyrian steel is probably made using spells and dragonfire, rather than sacrifices. Valyrians knew how to use the magic uniquely. When Valyria is gone, the craft of forging the blades go too. The magic may have required sacrifices, but it's hard to imagine why Valyrians would kill people just for the blades, because they had dragons and didn't have much need for conventional blades anyway. 

The blade that we know is made with a sacrifice is Lightbringer, which is a weapon of legend. So weapons that require sacrifices belong to a different group. 

Anyway, that Essoi smith in KL says he knows how to forge Valyrian steel, probably with spells. When magic returns to the world, it might be possible to make Valyrian steel once more. 

Here's an interesting post on this:

 

Tobho Mott knows how to reforge Valyrian steel, not create it

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15 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's possible that there was some sort of guild the smiths who forged the steel belonged to and where they kept their secrets, just like the alchemists. 

I think this is the most likely other explanation. Thanks for pointing this out.

Also, I knew that Aenar was relatively weak, but I always thought that since he was part of the ruling 40, he should know and have access to top tier things, sorcery and secrets etc. I mean, if you had a fortune of a few billion, you'd be a junior billionaire compared to titans such as Bezos, Gates and Buffett, but still super powerful with exclusive access to all sorts of goodies not marketed to regular people. 

19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Blood becomes brown when it dries. Mixing steel with dragonbone will give it that dark grey color, though. And there are 19 dragon skulls in the Red Keep. We get an information dump on dragonbone almost right off the bat. I think that's important. 

Perhaps Dany's dragonfire plus Mel's spells plus Dragonbone alloy = Valyrian Steel? 

It is certainly possible, as you say, that Aenar simply didn't originally have the spells to help the Targs create more Valyrian steel (before the conquest) when 4 of the 5 dragons he brought with him to Dragonstone died and no doubt left plenty of dragon bone. But, I still feel he should have a capable household smith, and the spell book by virtue of his Dragonlord status. 

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14 hours ago, Br16 said:

Dragons are more air support/ nuke. The Valyrians regularly field large armies such as the 100K host they sent along with 300 Dragons in the Second Spice war. The Valyrians were world conquering and cruel beyond measure (14 flames slavery etc.), thus, I'm pretty sure the Dragonlords wouldn't bat an eyelid at sacrificing a few hundred nobles after a sack to create some Valyrian steel items for themselves and their household guards/non dragon riding officer kin. 

With relation to the war with the Rhoynar, the Rhoynese had 250,000 strong ground army. They managed to overwhelm three dragons and the army of a free city. Only after that did Valyria send reinforcements with 300 dragons. The army came from the cities Garin was sacking. In any case, it shows that the Freehold's main power came from dragons and not any ground army. It also makes sense that they wouldn't want too many friendlies on the ground as the dragons essentially burn everything. 

You actually don't have any evidence to support the fact that Valyrians were any more cruel that any other empire in Planetos history. In the beginning, they essentially get dragged into a war by Ghiscari, and when it ends some centuries later, the Valyrians have ended up the slavers. 

If you pay close attention to how sacrificial magic works, you'd notice that random killings don't result in great magical outcomes. Valyrians get their dragons by sacrificing their kin, as in people from their own families. The price for magic is harsh. Killing random nobles as you like doesn't result in magical outcomes. In the books, both Mel and Euron try something like this, but they don't get any results. There are also cities like Qohor and even the fighting pits of Slaver's Bay where people and animals are killed in scores saying it's a sacrifice to the gods or something. But doing so doesn't give these people magic powers. That's because what you sacrifice has to mean something to you so it really feels like paying a price to get something back in return. 

As for the Valyrian steel, offering a soul to each sword, dagger, ornament, circlet, or even the maester's link doesn't make much sense. Sacrifice might be indirectly related (such as going into the dragons that breathe the forge fire), but not directly related. 

 

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4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Tobho Mott knows how to reforge Valyrian steel, not create it

Isn't it the same thing? I mean, wouldn't he have to fold the melted steel the same when reforging to get the same properties? Doesn't it mean he knows how Valyrian steel is made? Maybe he can't create it as he doesn't have dragons, but he does have the knowledge. This is, of course, what he claims. But I think it's him who melts Ice and created two new Valyrian steel blades from it. 

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1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Isn't it the same thing? I mean, wouldn't he have to fold the melted steel the same when reforging to get the same properties? Doesn't it mean he knows how Valyrian steel is made? Maybe he can't create it as he doesn't have dragons, but he does have the knowledge. This is, of course, what he claims. But I think it's him who melts Ice and created two new Valyrian steel blades from it. 

Blacksmiths usually don't melt steel.

They just make it red hot and beat it until it gets the desired shape.

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Posted (edited)

Are you sure that "King's blood" refers to blood from "any" royal dynasty ? Don't you think that Mel uses this phrase to speak about blood from Ancient Valyria ?

I mean : blood from Ancient Valyria almost equates King's blood in ASOIAF timeline :
- except for the Targaryans and the Baratheons, there are not so many people from Ancient Valyria in the world,
- I don't really know if there are so many kingdoms outside Westeros.

Well, if Mel refers to blood from Ancient Valyria, there was plenty of it before the Doom (so theoretically, many swords could be forged) but I guess that Valyrians were not very enthusiastic to kill themselves to forge swords (which may explain that there are not so many).

Edited by Young Braavosi

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11 minutes ago, Young Braavosi said:

there are not so many people from Ancient Valyria in the world,

From the nobility not, but there are plenty of valyrians still alive, some are even slaves

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Posted (edited)

I think Dragonfire has nothing to do with it.

Unless Azor Ahai didn't make the equivalent, there is no mention of dragons involved.

I think The Last Hero, after being cursed by the Night's Queen when he was almost dead as he sought the children of the forest, struggled to cure himself from her grasp (Old Nan said the Night's King was man by the light of day, but the night was his to rule, implying some inner conflict a la Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde), stabbed her in the heart with the new sword he had been forging (his previous sword had been broken by the cold), and this resulted in Valyrian steel equivalent, which can be used to defeat the others (the legend says the Last Hero had a sword the others couldn't resist, yet last we heard his sword had been broken by the cold, presumably before he had such a sword). The dragonfire claim is possibly because one would need "dragon glass", which really isn't made with dragons, it's seemingly just obsidian.

So basically, you need Fire & Blood. Just like to hatch a dragon egg.

 

Edited by NonoNono

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

You actually don't have any evidence to support the fact that Valyrians were any more cruel that any other empire in Planetos history. 

They were certainly the most cruel: 

"...amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold's nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too." - AFFC Arya II"

Moreover, a great theory on Reddit ( its called Hell is for real; The Fourteen Flames) goes that Valyrian sorcerers raised the dead slaves as fire wights to suffer again and again until the body is too damaged. So basically the first Faceless Man offered quick permanent painless death to the slaves. 

15 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

it shows that the Freehold's main power came from dragons and not any ground army.

Volantis started as a Garrison town consisting of the Black Walls. Dragons were the power behind Valyria, but an Empire this large would certainly need elite troops, Praetorian Guards and local garrisons to keep the peace and act in tandem with the dragons. It's like how the British Empire relied on the naval guns of its fleet, but still had garrisons everywhere. 

15 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Valyrians get their dragons by sacrificing their kin, as in people from their own families.

Possibly, I always though Summerhall was such an attempt. However, Many Targaryen dragons had hatched on their own. 

15 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

There are also cities like Qohor and even the fighting pits of Slaver's Bay where people and animals are killed in scores saying it's a sacrifice to the gods or something.

I think its like this: sacrifice of slaves, gladiators and animals is like copper coins, sacrifice of nobles is like silver coins, sacrifice of your own noble kin is like gold coins. Depending on what they were trying to achieve, they needed to get the value right. The regular sacrifices are just to keep the peace, but if they wanted something extraordinary, it would cost progressively more.

15 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

But doing so doesn't give these people magic powers. That's because what you sacrifice has to mean something to you so it really feels like paying a price to get something back in return. 

As highborns are harder to come by, it is quite a price, a reasonable one for Valyrian steel. They could capture or buy slaves all the time, but the former comes only after a hard fought campaign. 

15 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

As for the Valyrian steel, offering a soul to each sword, dagger, ornament, circlet, or even the maester's link doesn't make much sense.

Maybe it's not one soul per item, it could be one per each large ingot, which is later reworked into various items. 

Edited by Br16

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Br16 said:

They were certainly the most cruel: 

Again, you can't compare which empire is the most cruel, especially considering GRRM actively avoids the evil empire trope. Obviously, the slaves toiling away in the mines was evil, and it resulted in the destruction of Valyria. But I fail to see your logic that says Valyrians were so cruel and that's why they went around killing their own for a magic metal. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

Dragons were the power behind Valyria, but an Empire this large would certainly need elite troops, Praetorian Guards and local garrisons to keep the peace and act in tandem with the dragons. It's like how the British Empire relied on the naval guns of its fleet, but still had garrisons everywhere. 

Valyrians did have elite troops: the DRAGONLORDS. Then they absorbed conquered armies or made their own to act as ground troops. But nothing so far indicates Valyrians needed ground troops so bad that they would need to make blood sacrifices for Valyrian steel. The conquered the Ghis Empire with dragons for example. 

Also, what evidence do we have that Valyrians equipped their ground troops with Valyrian steel? Wasn't it the dragonlords who wore VS armor and wielded VS swords? 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

Possibly, I always though Summerhall was such an attempt. However, Many Targaryen dragons had hatched on their own.

You are mixing up creation of dragons with owning dragons. Blood magic went into creating dragons, and also to make dragons return from extinction, from everything we've seen in the books. The dragons that hatch from eggs still are not natural creatures. Their lives are bizarrely connected to the Targs that own them. In Summerhall, a bunch of dragon eggs are destroyed, and that is followed by a number of miscarriages. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

I think its like this: sacrifice of slaves, gladiators and animals is like copper coins, sacrifice of nobles is like silver coins, sacrifice of your own noble kin is like gold coins. Depending on what they were trying to achieve, they needed to get the value right. The regular sacrifices are just to keep the peace, but if they wanted something extraordinary, it would cost progressively more.

You can't put a value on life based on social station! That's ridiculous and just awful. GRRM certainly is not writing about a world where a royal, noble life has more value than the life of someone enslaved.

The sacrifice is like a transaction, where the person doing the sacrifice has to pay a "price" to get what they want in return. So it's a personal price, nothing to do with the people ending up as the sacrifices. The only such successful ritual we see so far is what Dany does at the end of GoT. None of the other rituals where things are killed left and right work. That shows that priests and sorcerers don't really understand what paying the price means and that they think just killing things should work (it doesn't).  

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

Moreover, a great theory on Reddit ( its called Hell is for real; The Fourteen Flames) goes that Valyrian sorcerers raised the dead slaves as fire wights to suffer again and again until the body is too damaged. So basically the first Faceless Man offered quick permanent painless death to the slaves. 

That sounds like a tin foil theory. If they could raise fire wights, Valyrians wouldn't need to enslave new ones as frequently as they did. Also, corpses can be mended if damaged. Why would the FM kill the slaves considering they can just be raised as wights? Wouldn't they also need ice somehow to destroy a fire wight?

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

Maybe it's not one soul per item, it could be one per each large ingot, which is later reworked into various items. 

That doesn't make any sense. If there was a soul in there, why doesn't the metal glow or look reddish? We know that Lightbringer had that glow-y type of property that made the steel look sort of alive. I think it's more sensible that they used dragon fire and spells to make Varyian steel. So it would only indirectly be made using blood magic. GRRM has confirmed that magic goes into making VS:

Quote

The closest real life analog is Damascus steel, but Valyrian steel is a fantasy metal. Which means it has magical characteristics, and magic plays a role in its forging.

 

Edited by Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

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It's not king's blood.  Valyria was a freehold.  The Valyrians did not have kings.  The Targaryens had all the material ingredients they needed on Dragonstone and yet they never forged the steel.  The missing magic ingredient had to have been left behind in the Valyrian peninsula.  Euron found an antigue armor and tempered it in Valyria, from the flames of one of the fourteen volcanoes.  I submit that the steel must be tempered from the fires of the Fourteen Flames.  The volcanoes were the source of magic for the Valyrians.  What they had on Dragonstone was inadequate.  Valyrian Steel can only be made at the Fourteen Flames.  It's not called Valyrian Steel because of the maker.  It was called that because of the place of its making.  Like fine wine, it is named after the place of making.

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@Moiraine Sedai I was referring to conquered highborn, not that Valyrians had kings. You bring up a good theory of the fires of the Fourteen Flames were what made VS, or it could be that after the Doom, the Targs of Dragonstone didn't want to go to war just to conquer kings to make VS. 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Valyria. But I fail to see your logic that says Valyrians were so cruel and that's why they went around killing their own for a magic metal. 

I feel it is manifest that they were the cruelest since other Empires didn't toss their slaves into ovens. The quote mentioned that most mines were merely dank and chilly, but the Valyrian ones basically roasted people. Also, I never said they killed their own, just that they  sacrificed conquered highborns to get VS.

23 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Also, what evidence do we have that Valyrians equipped their ground troops with Valyrian steel? Wasn't it the dragonlords who wore VS armor and wielded VS swords? 

It's simply a smart move to arm their elite bodyguards, Praetorian Guards, Garrison officers etc.  with VS. Historically, the servants of the rich were dressed in livery and finer clothes so that when they went out, they would be recognized as the extension of their master's wealth and power. Likewise, Valyrian troops wielding VS items serves the same purpose inworld.

Also, there were only 40 Houses with Dragons, thus, the Dragonlords (who were all aristocrats needing leisure time and senate attendance time) needed to have other people do most of the day to day grunt work, and those forces would need better weaponry to maintain their prestige and edge. If the Dragonlords patrolled so hard, why were 99% of the dragons in one location to all die in the doom? By logic, they would have been spread out all over the empire, on tightly scheduled shifts,  putting out rebellions and patrolling. 

23 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

You are mixing up creation of dragons with owning dragons

I did not. You said:

On 6/19/2019 at 1:17 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Valyrians get their dragons by sacrificing their kin

And I replied that many dragon eggs have hatched on their own without sacrificing kin.

23 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

You can't put a value on life based on social station! That's ridiculous and just awful. GRRM certainly is not writing about a world where a royal, noble life has more value than the life of someone enslaved.

An awful possibility for an awful world. Planetos is filled with Lords, Kings, Old Blood, Wise Masters and Merchant Princes. Each is arrogant and it is only reasonable that they have deities to match. After all, the Black Goat of Qohor demands animal sacrifice on regular days, but gets noble sacrifice in times of crisis. And their sorcery obviously has power since the only people left who could rework (but not make) VS are from Qohor.

23 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

That sounds like a tin foil theory. If they could raise fire wights, Valyrians wouldn't need to enslave new ones as frequently as they did. Also, corpses can be mended if damaged. Why would the FM kill the slaves considering they can just be raised as wights?

I think the theory is on to something. Even when raised again, the oven like conditions, the flames, firewyrms, the boiling water etc. in the 14 Flames would have destroyed the body beyond mending very easily. Moreover, the whole theory is that the First FM managed to kill the slaves permanently so they could not be raised once more.

23 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

That doesn't make any sense. If there was a soul in there, why doesn't the metal glow or look reddish? We know that Lightbringer had that glow-y type of property that made the steel look sort of alive. I think it's more sensible that they used dragon fire and spells to make Varyian steel.

Because perhaps not all life force was equal. Light bringer had the life force of a Legendary Hero's Wife, Valyrian steel only had the life force of a highborn. It's like how Demigod Achilles > King Menelaus.  If only dragon fire and spells were needed, and no supply limit based on rare sacrifice, then the Targaryens should have been able to evacuate to Dragonstone with more VS. Thus, its probably spells + dragon fire + conquered highborn sacrifice. 

Edited by Br16

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