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Br16

I think I've figured out how Valyrian Steel is made.

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7 hours ago, Br16 said:

I feel it is manifest that they were the cruelest since other Empires didn't toss their slaves into ovens. The quote mentioned that most mines were merely dank and chilly, but the Valyrian ones basically roasted people. Also, I never said they killed their own, just that they  sacrificed conquered highborns to get VS.

Other Empires didn't have volcanoes to dig into. But that doesn't mean they were any less cruel. Valyrians get real greedy, according to the maesters anyway, and make slaves dig even deeper until they come across the firewyrms. 

Nothing in the books so far explicitly says Valyrians sacrificed people to the fire. The dragons burned armies in war and rebellions. They either killed or enslaved people they conquered. If they did burn conquered people as sacrifices, it would be in the Westerosi maester history books. In fact, blood magic and sacrifices are not mentioned with relation to Valyria at all compared to some of the contemporary places like Qohor. We only know blood magic went into creating dragons from Dany's ritual. Valyrians are only associated with the "arcane arts."

Going back to the mining, it's possible they mined dragonglass or obsidian, or a different precious metal that Valyrian steel is made out of. The frozen fire or the substance wildfire is made out of. It would make sense that a unique metal went into VS, which is why no one else can make it. Valyrians would have also used dragonfire and certain spells to forge the weapons. 

(Also, the Ghis empire seemed to have been way, way worse than Valyria when we regard the existing customs in the contemporary harpy cities). 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

It's simply a smart move to arm their elite bodyguards, Praetorian Guards, Garrison officers etc.  with VS. Historically, the servants of the rich were dressed in livery and finer clothes so that when they went out, they would be recognized as the extension of their master's wealth and power. Likewise, Valyrian troops wielding VS items serves the same purpose inworld.

That's Westerosi custom mainly. That doesn't mean we can apply the same to Valyria. And the books only mention Valyrian armor as something the dragonlords wore. There are no mentions of Valyrian ground troops clad in VS armor and using VS blades going into battle. The children of Valyria, though under the Freehold, have their own armies. If they had VS gear for the common soldier, they should exist to this day and those don't really seem to. 

Again. Valyria didn't depend on ground troops to win battles. They had dragons, and that's all they really needed. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

Also, there were only 40 Houses with Dragons, thus, the Dragonlords (who were all aristocrats needing leisure time and senate attendance time) needed to have other people do most of the day to day grunt work, and those forces would need better weaponry to maintain their prestige and edge. 

This is really just speculation. You can't assume that Valyrians ran their Freehold the same way the Meereenese or the Pentoshi run their cities. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

If the Dragonlords patrolled so hard, why were 99% of the dragons in one location to all die in the doom? By logic, they would have been spread out all over the empire, on tightly scheduled shifts,  putting out rebellions and patrolling. 

Because the Doom happened when the dragonlords were gathered in Valyria. AWOIAF says this:

Quote

The dragonlords had been gathered in Valyria as was their wont

So its custom for the dragonlords to be in Valyria. They probably didn't need to go patrolling except on occasions. Valyria was never plagued by rebellions. They won against their main enemies--the Ghiscari and the Rhoynar--and everyone else realized they couldn't match the power of dragons. The Andals fled rather than rebel and die. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

An awful possibility for an awful world. Planetos is filled with Lords, Kings, Old Blood, Wise Masters and Merchant Princes. Each is arrogant and it is only reasonable that they have deities to match.

Um, no. People everywhere live by a hierarchy of some sort. Just because social customs dictate nobles are important, that doesn't mean divine tradition assumes the same. None of the religions actually claim some lives are above others either. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

After all, the Black Goat of Qohor demands animal sacrifice on regular days, but gets noble sacrifice in times of crisis. And their sorcery obviously has power since the only people left who could rework (but not make) VS are from Qohor.

This is obviously something the evil sorcerers of Qohor believe; not that a "god" actually came down and demanded dead nobles. Lol. We know from Mel's actions that some priests tend to believe they know their religion truly despite gaps in knowledge. The sacrificial magic in Qohor most likely comes from a misunderstanding of Valyrian magic. Either that or they are making these offerings to the Great Other that hates all living things. In any case, we don't really know much about the bloodmagic in the East to claim anything beyond speculation. 

The books say that some Qohori smiths CLAIM to know how to create VS. If they really could do it, then we would see a big VS trade coming out of the city, but we don't. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

Because perhaps not all life force was equal.

I very highly doubt that. 

Why would you actually assume that some lives are worthier than others anyway? Nissa Nissa was important because of her husband (who only becomes a hero after killing her)? Why isn't it more likely that the ritual worked because Nissa Nissa was important to Azor Ahai, who loved her truly? He makes a great personal sacrifice to get a magic weapon in return. This is pretty easy to understand in context. Why would the gods value people based on where they are in highly arbitrary social hierarchies? If they did that, they would not be gods at all. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

 If only dragon fire and spells were needed, and no supply limit based on rare sacrifice, then the Targaryens should have been able to evacuate to Dragonstone with more VS.

Or they didn't have the mined raw material needed to make the steel. They left Valyria some dozen years before the Doom, so plenty of time to stock up on everything they needed. 

7 hours ago, Br16 said:

And I replied that many dragon eggs have hatched on their own without sacrificing kin.

Because the sacrifices were already made. The souls of the dragons and their potential riders are already intertwined. 

Anyway the point is, some sort of magic did go into making VS. It's possible that the unique properties of the blade come from using a precious metal found only in the Peninsula (which is no more). VS is highly valuable, but we see all sorts of things made from it other than blades. Therefore, I highly doubt people were actually sacrificed to make it. We can probably say that some type of fire property went into the blade, which is why it's so effective against the Others. 

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@Br16, I just saw something I had never noticed before in the text about Valyrian steel.

Granted, it's coming from Kraznys mo Nakloz, but it's still an interesting tidbit. This is him comparing the Unsullied to Valyrian steel.

"Tell her they are like Valyrian steel, folded over and over and hammered for years on end, until they are stronger and more resilient than any metal on earth." (Dany II, ASoS 23)

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This is him comparing the Unsullied to Valyrian steel.

"Tell her they are like Valyrian steel, folded over and over and hammered for years on end, until they are stronger and more resilient than any metal on earth." (Dany II, ASoS 23)

It needed skilled smiths of course. And lots of time. Skills in Blood Magic too I suppose. To get something from the mysterious Shadows. That would need a sacrifice. But not any sacrifice because slaves were cheap then. Maybe someone of Varyrian blood? Maybe a dragon? Maybe a fellow shadowmage, a priest of another religion? Something or someone of great value for the Shadows anyway.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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On 6/18/2019 at 7:05 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Blood becomes brown when it dries. Mixing steel with dragonbone will give it that dark grey color, though. And there are 19 dragon skulls in the Red Keep. We get an information dump on dragonbone almost right off the bat. I think that's important. 

So do I, hence the theory in my signature. But GRRM is on record that dragonbone is not used in making VS.

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On 6/18/2019 at 5:55 AM, The Sleeper said:

I don't see how Martin's statement is subject to interpretation. We won't see gods. That's it. Calling visions R'hlor's will is your prerogative, but it changes nothing. 

He said we won't see Valyria or Asshai either. Doesn't mean they don't exist within the world. 

If you look up all of GRRM's quotes regarding the Gods of Planetos you'll see that he said he won't say whether they are meant to be real in-universe or not, but wants every reader to make up their own mind.

You've made up your mind that they aren't real. Br16 has reached the opposite conclusion. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He said we won't see Valyria or Asshai either. Doesn't mean they don't exist within the world. 

It does mean however that neither the prologue nor any other chapter of the following books will take place in either of those locales. It also means that first hand presence in either those locales will not be necessary to explain the plot or the narrative in any shape or form. 

Again. From the horses mouth. No divine intervention, no element of the plot or narrative requires a deity, therefore in terms arguing something or theorising about something in terms of deities is irrelevant and pointless. 

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3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

So do I, hence the theory in my signature. But GRRM is on record that dragonbone is not used in making VS.

That's a bit of a bummer. It won't be the first speculation that's wrong, or the last. I think it's one of those things that will remain a mystery, although I am looking forward to seeing how well Steelskin is protected by those Valyrian tattoos that supposedly make his skin as hard as steel.

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On 7/1/2019 at 1:04 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That's a bit of a bummer. It won't be the first speculation that's wrong, or the last. I think it's one of those things that will remain a mystery, although I am looking forward to seeing how well Steelskin is protected by those Valyrian tattoos that supposedly make his skin as hard as steel.

I've proposed that it's charred dragonlord bone that is required to carbonize steel in such a way it becomes Valyrian steel.

 

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On 6/30/2019 at 4:15 PM, The Sleeper said:

Again. From the horses mouth. No divine intervention, no element of the plot or narrative requires a deity, therefore in terms arguing something or theorising about something in terms of deities is irrelevant and pointless. 

It would help if you would stop putting words in the horse's mouth. He never said they don't exist. He never said they do exist. He didn't say either way. I'm not sure why you're having trouble understanding that. 

Not appearing on the page doesn't mean no divine intervention. Non-corporeal beings in a fictional work could well intervene without taking corporeal form.

No element requires a deity to show up in a physical sense, wearing a glowing outfit and expecting people to bow down. The plot revolves around the human characters, whose actions are influenced by whether they do or don't believe in the various gods of the story. The characters can "decide for themselves" just as the readers can. The story will end with living characters. The question of whether the gods are real or not most likely won't be dealt with in the work, thus he's not getting into that when discussing the work. Which brings us back to his original answer: to decide for ourselves. Your decision is not better or more valid than anyone else's. 

 

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