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Br16

I think I've figured out how Valyrian Steel is made.

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Posted (edited)

I had another look at the Azor Ahai /Nissa Nissa lore and something occurred in my mind: What if the secret to Valyrian steel is simply steel forged by dragon fire, tempered in king's blood? There seems to be obvious parallels between the sorcery Mel is obsessed with (i.e. blue blood=better result) and the sorcery of the Old Freehold. 

That would explain why even Dragonlords such as the Targaryens only had 2 Valyrian steel swords. Even for a world conquering Empire, the amount of kings they could get their hands on would be limited, and the reason the whole secret was so easily lost could be that the sacrifice required would probably be considered scary, sacrilegious and prohibitively expensive by most, so later people can't even imagine it as a concept. 

What do you guys think?

Edited by Br16

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Not sure with kings but it is possible that Valyrian steel was created with blood sacriface/blood magic, same as dragon hatching.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not king’s blood. But definitely blood sacrifice. Life force powers all magic in the World of Ice and Fire. You must sacrifice something to gain something.

Even if not king's, the blood has got to be rare or highborn imo. If any slave or animal would do, then there's no reason the Targs wouldn't have loads of them. Aenar brought all his wealth with him, but still only two known Valyrian swords. 

Also, Aeron thought Euron's armor was Valyrian steel and was of the opinion that even before the doom, it would have cost a kingdom if it were.

Thus, I feel there has to be a threshold above a slave or animal, after all the Valyrians ran through slaves in the 14 flames even faster than we run through coffee.

Edited by Br16

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Even if not king's, the blood has got to be rare or highborn imo. If any slave or animal would do, then there's no reason the Targs wouldn't have loads of them. Aenar brought all his wealth with him, but still only two known Valyrian swords. 

Also, Aeron thought Euron's armor was Valyrian steel and was of the opinion that even before the doom, it would have cost a kingdom if it were.

Thus, I feel there has to be a threshold above a slave or animal, after all the Valyrians ran through slaves in the 14 flames even faster than we run through coffee.

There are hundreds of Valyrian blades (including swords, daggers, knives etc) in Westeros alone, according to a quote from George. That implies that in Valyria there would no doubt have been tens of thousands created over the course of their history.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

There are hundreds of Valyrian blades (including swords, daggers, knives etc) in Westeros alone, according to a quote from George. That implies that in Valyria there would no doubt have been tens of thousands created over the course of their history.

True, but lets say 20,000 Valyrian steel items over Old Valyria's 5000 year history. This would still be an average production of only 4 per year. Since they enslaved constantly, the number should be much higher unless there was another limitation, such as the quality of blood.

Edited by Br16

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4 minutes ago, Br16 said:

True, but lets say 20,000 Valyrian steel items over Old Valyria's 5000 year history. This would still be an average production of only 4 per year. Since they enslaved constantly, the number should be much higher unless there was another limitation, such as the quality of blood.

Why decrease the value of your product by increasing the quantity on the market? By keeping the secret of forging close to their chest and production low, VS becomes more valuable

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Why decrease the value of your product by increasing the quantity on the market? By keeping the secret of forging close to their chest and production low, VS becomes more valuable

Could be, after all, they seem to be a secretive bunch. But I've a feeling that the Dragon Lords liked plundering/looting/tribute/levies/slave labor more than they like earning on the open market. If they could outfit their elite armies with as much Valyrian steel as they could make, the less dragon fire they need to deploy, meaning the more loot that remains unburnt, and less property damage during dealing with revolts.

Edited by Br16

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I don't think that it was a "material" i.e. higborn/king blood that made a cost but knowledge of spells and magic to use it and forge valyrian steel.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Maybe the larger the blade, the more people had to be sacrificed to forge it? 

That could also be true. Perhaps if not King's blood, they may have to sacrifice an obscene amount of  people just to make one good sword? 

Either way, I'm betting Mel knows how to make more, but won't push it or involve Dany because the moral uproar over the sacrifice price (which I feel will cross every red line by a mile) would be simply too much, and perhaps make her even more unpopular than she is now.

Edited by Br16

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I doubt they were using king's blood. Blood sacrifice, possibly, but I doubt it was king's blood. Besides, even if the Valyrians were using king's blood, they don't have to kill the person for the blood. Melisandre used leeches on Edric Storm. 

I think there is a hint in the text about dragonbone being one of the materials used to make the steel.

Tyrion in ASoS says that there are thousands of blades left in the world and two hundred in Westeros and this is some 400 years after the Doom.

So it's not that Valyrian steel was such a rare thing the Doom. It's just that there's no one to make it anymore. The spells to reforge the steel are there. The spells to make the steel are not. If the place that made the product goes kaboom, then all bets are off.

 

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Posted (edited)

Valyrian steel is probably made using spells and dragonfire, rather than sacrifices. Valyrians knew how to use the magic uniquely. When Valyria is gone, the craft of forging the blades go too. The magic may have required sacrifices, but it's hard to imagine why Valyrians would kill people just for the blades, because they had dragons and didn't have much need for conventional blades anyway. 

The blade that we know is made with a sacrifice is Lightbringer, which is a weapon of legend. So weapons that require sacrifices belong to a different group. 

Anyway, that Essoi smith in KL says he knows how to forge Valyrian steel, probably with spells. When magic returns to the world, it might be possible to make Valyrian steel once more. 

Here's an interesting post on this:

 

Edited by Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

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Interesting idea, but I don't think there's any evidence that Nissa Nissa was royalty.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Aebram said:

Interesting idea, but I don't think there's any evidence that Nissa Nissa was royalty.

I was thinking more along the lines of that "it'll cost you" being the price of Valyrian steel. The fire and blood magic of Valyria is similar to the type practiced by the red priests, so the principles should be the same. For Azor Ahai, the price of Lightbringer was the love of his life, a hero's wife. For Valyrian steel, the sacrifice price could be rare highborn blood, which explains why the Targaryens (not the most powerful Dragonlords in the freehold, but still one of the ruling 40 of a world conquering empire) only had two even though Aenar evacuated all his wealth.

12 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

but it's hard to imagine why Valyrians would kill people just for the blades, because they had dragons and didn't have much need for conventional blades anyway. 

Dragons are more air support/ nuke. The Valyrians regularly field large armies such as the 100K host they sent along with 300 Dragons in the Second Spice war. The Valyrians were world conquering and cruel beyond measure (14 flames slavery etc.), thus, I'm pretty sure the Dragonlords wouldn't bat an eyelid at sacrificing a few hundred nobles after a sack to create some Valyrian steel items for themselves and their household guards/non dragon riding officer kin. 

13 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

they don't have to kill the person for the blood. Melisandre used leeches on Edric Storm. 

I think there is a hint in the text about dragonbone being one of the materials used to make the steel.

Tyrion in ASoS says that there are thousands of blades left in the world and two hundred in Westeros and this is some 400 years after the Doom.

So it's not that Valyrian steel was such a rare thing the Doom. It's just that there's no one to make it anymore. The spells to reforge the steel are there. The spells to make the steel are not. If the place that made the product goes kaboom, then all bets are off.

You might if you want to temper a whole sword. Regarding the dragon bone,  4 of Aenar's 5 dragons died  on Dragonstone yet the Targ's still only have two VS swords. I'm pretty sure someone as highly placed as he was would know the spells. The fact he could not make more could be because he lacked the rare sacrifice needed, and didn't want to get into trouble to obtain it just to make an extra sword. Moreover, the dark color of VS swords could be a hint of the blood sacrifice (i.e. blood darkens when it solidifies).

Lastly, even if there were once 50,000 VS swords, that would still be average production of 10 per year over Valyria's 5000 year history. Moreover, Aeron suspected that Euron's armor was VS, and if it were, Aeron thought it might cost a kingdom even before the doom.

Edited by Br16

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7 minutes ago, Br16 said:

I'm pretty sure someone as highly placed as he was would know the spells.

Maybe none of the Targaryens were blacksmiths. We have no reason to believe that the valyrian nobility would forge their own blades.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Maybe none of the Targaryens were blacksmiths. We have no reason to believe that the valyrian nobility would forge their own blades.

Well, Aenar brought his entire household and staff/slaves with him, I feel one of them should be the household smith. 

Edited by Br16

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Human sacrifice yes, King's Blood no, there weren't enough kings around. And while I do think the Nissa Nissa parable refers to the creation of Valyrian steel it doesn't necessarily describe the exact process. 

Another alternative is that it refers to the creation of dragons. Azor Ahai tried to create the dragons by mixing firewyrms and wyvern, but it wouldn't take until he added a bit of human to the mix. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Human sacrifice yes, King's Blood no, there weren't enough kings around. And while I do think the Nissa Nissa parable refers to the creation of Valyrian steel it doesn't necessarily describe the exact process. 

Another alternative is that it refers to the creation of dragons. Azor Ahai tried to create the dragons by mixing firewyrms and wyvern, but it wouldn't take until he added a bit of human to the mix. 

Thanks for dropping by. I think you bring up an interesting point about Lightbringer being the first dragon, the sentience of Nissa Nissa fusing together firewryms and wyvern. I always felt R'hllor obviously had something to do with it. Plus, one flaming sword is simply impractical when you're faced with undead tsunami. Dragons sound about right.

As for the rarity of King's blood, I think the fact there's not enough to go around could be the reason it was King's blood. Remember, there are only a few thousand VS items left in existence, and probably only tens of thousands at its height. When you divide that by Valyria's 5000+ year history, it only averages a few swords a year. For a world conquering, world looting Empire, and if we expand the term King's Blood to include princes and top tier Highborn, it sounds about right. Only this type of supply shortage would cause the Targs to have only 2 ancestral VS swords, which is a rather sorry amount for a Dragonlord unless there was a source material shortage reason. 

Edited by Br16

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Thanks for dropping by. I think you bring up an interesting point about Lightbringer being the first dragon, the sentience of Nissa Nissa fusing together firewryms and wyvern. I always felt R'hllor obviously had something to do with it. Plus, one flaming sword is simply impractical when you're faced with undead tsunami. Dragons sound about right.

As for the rarity of King's blood, I think the fact there's not enough to go around could be the reason it was King's blood. Remember, there are only a few thousand VS items left in existence, and probably only tens of thousands at its height. When you divide that by Valyria's 5000+ year history, it only averages a few swords a year. For a world conquering, world looting Empire, and if we expand the term King's Blood to include princes and top tier Highborn, it sounds about right. Only this type of supply shortage would cause the Targs to have only 2 ancestral VS swords, which is a rather sorry amount for a Dragonlord unless there was a source material shortage reason. 

I never said anything about R'hlor. Martin has pretty much said that there are no gods. A person or people being at the core of the legend of Azor Ahai, is something different. I believe there was a sorcerer, likely from Asshai, who played an integral part in the events of the Long Night. For conveniences sake, I call him Azor Ahai. 

As for king's blood, it seems a stretch to begin with and it depends largely on definition. For instance if you count each and every chieftain, sure, or if you count back far enough. There should be a few hundred descendants of Aegon IV alone. I think however the particular type of sacrifice refers to an actual reigning King. Moreover the particular legend does not point in any way shape or form to the sacrifice of royalty. 

It may point however to the sacrifice of a spouse. ETA. Not in reference to making swords, but in reference to the role of the PtwP. Dany has sacrificed both spouse and child and Jon abandoned his wilding wife on the eve of battle to fight on the other side. 

Edited by The Sleeper

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