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Dresden Files (most recent thread is archived) Peace Talks is finished


Ser Scot A Ellison

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I fully think the Fomor are going to get massacred the moment that Ethniu goes down actually. This is an "all their chips in one basket" attack. Mind you, one of the things we've seen with them is they're ALL suicidally overconfident. We've had about a dozen encounters with them over the short stories and they ALL act like they're cartoon villains.

"I AM A GOD, DO NOT TOY WITH ME MORTAL!" overthetop.

A friend of mine also had the theory all the minor talents that they've been going after were sacrificed to give Ethniu a boost.

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21 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:
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6.  I'll take the bet on Justine.  Beyond Cristos, I think it's Chandler who is Black Council.  

 

Spoiler

I will, too. I'd agree that Harry's misinterpreting what Thomas is trying to say, but I'm betting on Thomas trying to say "Justin," not Justine.

 

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56 minutes ago, AverageGuy said:
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I will, too. I'd agree that Harry's misinterpreting what Thomas is trying to say, but I'm betting on Thomas trying to say "Justin," not Justine.

 

Spoiler

That's an interesting idea.

There's clearly something going on beyond just a simple threat to Justine that Harry can resolve by getting her a bodyguard. Why wouldn't Thomas just go one of his siblings and say he needs more protection for her? Having said that I think she's involved in some way. Harry notes she has an odd reaction to the news about Thomas and then just doesn't follow up and why are all the different groups watching her?

 

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On 7/14/2020 at 2:56 PM, Poobah said:

 

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One of the biggest questions I have from the book actually is about Molly. I didn't question it too much at the time and we didn't see her too much since but now I'm really left wondering how it was allowed to happen that she could made in to the Winter Lady against her will. Her mortal free will seems to have been majorly subverted and that too flies in the face of what we've been told time and again about the state, laws even of the dresdenverse.

 

Just on the Molly stuff.

Spoiler

I think it's going to be shown at some point that she's been making some questionable choices of her own free will. She was made Winter Lady but what she does with that will still be down to her to an extent.

The fact that Mab was deliberately keeping her and Dresden apart for a significant period of time in Skin Game (Dresden thinks it was about him but I suspect it's going to turn out to have been more about Molly) seems important. Now she's being secretive herself and she's oddly reluctant to talk to her Dad. Michael's basically fine with Dresden being the Winter Knight, what he cares about is the choices people make so why is Molly so scared to tell him she's the Winter Lady?

 

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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

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A friend of mine also had the theory all the minor talents that they've been going after were sacrificed to give Ethniu a boost.

 

Spoiler

Good theory from your friend.  I had the opposite instinct that they Fomor are worried about the minor talents banding together to resist their onslaught. 

1 hour ago, ljkeane said:

Just on the Molly stuff.

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I think it's going to be shown at some point that she's been making some questionable choices of her own free will. She was made Winter Lady but what she does with that will still be down to her to an extent.

The fact that Mab was deliberately keeping her and Dresden apart for a significant period of time in Skin Game (Dresden thinks it was about him but I suspect it's going to turn out to have been more about Molly) seems important. Now she's being secretive herself and she's oddly reluctant to talk to her Dad. Michael's basically fine with Dresden being the Winter Knight, what he cares about is the choices people make so why is Molly so scared to tell him she's the Winter Lady?

 

Spoiler

She made very questionable choices in Cold Case.  It seems like Ramirez holds a major grudge, and I don't blame the guy. 

2 hours ago, AverageGuy said:
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I will, too. I'd agree that Harry's misinterpreting what Thomas is trying to say, but I'm betting on Thomas trying to say "Justin," not Justine.

See now I'm wondering whether Justine is infected by Nemesis.  Because you are right, both times Thomas did his best to say "Justine" which, at least to Harry, was an unnecessary statement given the promise he had made at the beginning of the book. 

 

 

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I think I agree with a lot of what Poobah mentioned. Couple pretty general thoughts (these are more on the critical end, but it's not to say I disliked the book - I thought it was pretty good honestly):

Spoiler

 

This does absolutely feel like half of a book, but it's concerning that it... doesn't feel long enough to be half of the book that it is aspiring to be. There's so much going on, and even if a decent amount of it pays off in other books, it seems like a tall order for BG. Just off the top of my head - Molly, her favor, her parents; the attack on the Gates; the conflict with the Titan and Fomor antagonists; Eb and Harry's relationship (and Eb and Thomas' relationship); Maggie coming into her magic (assuming that's the point of the kind of dopey conjuring sickness thing); the new theory about the Swords; Sanya being in Chicago in the first place (i.e. are the Denarians in town); Harry and the wardens' being at loggerheads; the Genoskwa (sp?) being alive; of course the entire Black Council and Nemesis plotlines overhanging everything; Harry studying with River Shoulders; probably several other things that I'm forgetting; and of course, the entire Thomas plotline - why'd he do it, who was the influencing party, what was their motivation, can the svartalves be diverted from wanting blood, can his hunger be assuaged, can he be benefited by stasis, what does this mean for Justine and her pregnancy

I agree with whoever said, wherever, that Eb didn't feel like he'd been written in the same way this book. The character feels reasonably different - some of that can be depth and shifting perspective, but his solidity always seemed like one of the reasons he'd have been selected for Blackstaff. Someone who can come unhinged in this way seems like a shakier choice there. It'll be interesting to see how he reconciles himself to finding out about Thomas.

I have to say, as someone who likes fantasy more for lore and worldbuilding and plot than for characters, I miss Bob and getting infodumps occasionally - as well as Harry's occasional conversations with Characters Who Know More Than Him. The Titan's introduction was pretty good for that, and Eb's brief Starborn tutorial, but I want more.

ETA: Oh, yeah, agree the Butters thing was pretty weak. Butters was a really interesting character in Dead Beat, and I thought the evolution into the Bob-Powered-Batman thing was a neat path; but while I didnt' totally hate it conceptually, I thought the manifestation as a KotS was cloyingly twee, and the nerd-wish-fulfillment complete with the threesome with hot women thing is just kind of... obvious-feeling, in a bad way.

 

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8 hours ago, BLU-RAY said:

I think I agree with a lot of what Poobah mentioned. Couple pretty general thoughts (these are more on the critical end, but it's not to say I disliked the book - I thought it was pretty good honestly):

  Hide contents

 

This does absolutely feel like half of a book, but it's concerning that it... doesn't feel long enough to be half of the book that it is aspiring to be. There's so much going on, and even if a decent amount of it pays off in other books, it seems like a tall order for BG. Just off the top of my head - Molly, her favor, her parents; the attack on the Gates; the conflict with the Titan and Fomor antagonists; Eb and Harry's relationship (and Eb and Thomas' relationship); Maggie coming into her magic (assuming that's the point of the kind of dopey conjuring sickness thing); the new theory about the Swords; Sanya being in Chicago in the first place (i.e. are the Denarians in town); Harry and the wardens' being at loggerheads; the Genoskwa (sp?) being alive; of course the entire Black Council and Nemesis plotlines overhanging everything; Harry studying with River Shoulders; probably several other things that I'm forgetting; and of course, the entire Thomas plotline - why'd he do it, who was the influencing party, what was their motivation, can the svartalves be diverted from wanting blood, can his hunger be assuaged, can he be benefited by stasis, what does this mean for Justine and her pregnancy

I agree with whoever said, wherever, that Eb didn't feel like he'd been written in the same way this book. The character feels reasonably different - some of that can be depth and shifting perspective, but his solidity always seemed like one of the reasons he'd have been selected for Blackstaff. Someone who can come unhinged in this way seems like a shakier choice there. It'll be interesting to see how he reconciles himself to finding out about Thomas.

I have to say, as someone who likes fantasy more for lore and worldbuilding and plot than for characters, I miss Bob and getting infodumps occasionally - as well as Harry's occasional conversations with Characters Who Know More Than Him. The Titan's introduction was pretty good for that, and Eb's brief Starborn tutorial, but I want more.

ETA: Oh, yeah, agree the Butters thing was pretty weak. Butters was a really interesting character in Dead Beat, and I thought the evolution into the Bob-Powered-Batman thing was a neat path; but while I didnt' totally hate it conceptually, I thought the manifestation as a KotS was cloyingly twee, and the nerd-wish-fulfillment complete with the threesome with hot women thing is just kind of... obvious-feeling, in a bad way.

 

Spoiler

Good thoughts: 

1.  I like your idea of the conjuritis being related to Maggie coming into her own power.  Curious as to whether you have thoughts about why Harry has developed it rather than Maggie (is it like an adult getting chicken pox if they never got it before?) and how does it tie in with the Christmas eve story?

2.  The Knights have been sent on non-Denarian missions before.  All three of the swords were at Chichen Itza as were Sanya and Murphy (as knight for the day).

3.  The Genoskwa being alive is a poor storytelling choice IMHO: too many villains of the week (like the Red Court) are coming back at one point or another and there is no way any corporeal being could have survived what happened to him at the end of skin games. 

 

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Maybe it's just me, but I feel a better title for this book would be Plot Hole. Except it's many, many plot holes, the sheer tonnage of it kind of overwhelming.

The writing felt off too, with some stuff being repeated twice in the space of a few chapters, almost like Butcher was trying to add stuff to justify this as a single book, and forgot what was already in the book, and neither his beta readers nor his editors caught it. 

Spoiler

1. The central plot around Thomas made no sense. Firstly, Harry never even trying to ask him who pressured him is beyond absurd. It's very much a plot necessity interfering with character behavior.

But most absurd is how we get a cheap rehash "Harry must break into a well protected place by planning a heist" story, which we've seen a few times at least, including the previous book. What's more, the actual heist is utter bullshit. Marcone just left a high-profile prisoner he's sworn by the Accords to hold safely in a basement guarded by a single guard, conveniently close to a chute, and the door to which is held by a regular lock?? And no one comments on how absurdly easy this is? 

Sure, maybe the whole thing was a plan between Marcone, Lara and Mab, but it's too on the nose that they'd leave Thomas in such an obviously unprotected place. There's no way this doesn't make Harry suspicious.

2. Why did the Fomor, or rather, Ethniu, collect together all their enemies to give them a warning before attacking Chicago? Why not take the city by surprise? It's absolutely insane to me that they'd give their enemies all this time to prepare. 

3. Harry telling Ebenezar that Thomas is his grandson after that stupid fight rather than before... Why in the world would he do that? And Harry acting surprised that Ebenezar is less than perfect feels like the author hasn't read the previous books. Didn't he have a multi-book period of rage+concern when he discovered Eb was the Blackstaff?

4. Harry pervs on not one but two women he knew as toddlers. Noticing Ivy's hips, and nothing else, was bad enough, but I literally had to put the book down and stop reading for a while when he started on Hope. This is behavior he has shown well before the Winter Mantle, and in both instances, he just casually sexualizes these women without mentioning the Mantle, which he seems to be getting pretty good at identifying when it's affecting him, so it can't be attributed to Winter. Icky.

5. The whole Harry and Murphy get propositioned for a threesome was bad enough, but as everyone here noted, the Butters thing was just....bizarre.

6. We never got much of the Peace Talks. From what I remember, barring learning that the Ghouls were part of the Accords, we don't meet a single new signatory. All that potential tension and chance for old alliances and enmities to come to the surface and we literally get two bland parties, one of which becomes a cheapo Red Wedding?

7. It's beyond a reasonable stretch that conjuritis and Rings of Fire weren't mentioned before. The first because even Lara knows about it, and Dresden never having heard of it seems absurd. And if a Ring of Fire was so potent, Harry not using it before seems an utter stretch, given his skill with Fire magic.

And so many more. 

On the whole, this was a pretty darn shitty book to get after the hiatus, but it would be a shitty book regardless. No matter what Battle Ground does, there's a lot of holes in this story. 

I'm honestly questioning whether it's worth sticking with the series. I'll probably give it another book or two, if this is the quality we can expect, I can see the exit ramp coming. 

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Okay,

We do know that Mr. Butcher's ex-wife is also a writer.  We know that he's been stuck on this book for some time.  We know that Mr. Butcher's divorce and the fall out therefrom is part of the reason for the long delay in getting this book.  Anyone else wonder if she might have had more input into Mr. Butcher's writing than Mr. Butcher ever let on?

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I don't think there's any real reason to think that. Apparently he got divorced in 2013 and he's published other books since then. I think the obvious issue here is his publishers asking him to split what was one book into two and it seems pretty much everyone seems to think Peace Talks felt like half a book.

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44 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Yeah honestly the more I think about this book in the cold light of day the more frustrated / disappointed I grow.

Yeah I my feelings exactly. This is probably the worst book since Grave Peril. Even if Battle Grounds turns out to be amazing, the split harmed Peace Talks too greatly. The book definitely needed more rewriting after the split was decided.

Spoiler

Take Rudolph's meddling for example: It pretty much amounts to ONE car chase and not much else.

 

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8 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I don't think there's any real reason to think that. Apparently he got divorced in 2013 and he's published other books since then. I think the obvious issue here is his publishers asking him to split what was one book into two and it seems pretty much everyone seems to think Peace Talks felt like half a book.

Well, Skin Game would have had her input.  This stuff about Butter's and the geek wish fulfillment reminds me of "Rand's Triad".  

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Personally I blame the editor. They should have noticed the drop in quality and encouraged (read: forced as much as possible) the go over the book again delays be damned.

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

[...] This stuff about Butter's and the geek wish fulfillment reminds me of "Rand's Triad".  

Actually it is worse. At least Elaine, Aviendha and Min were fleshed out characters. Here it is not even good fanservice

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4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Well, Skin Game would have had her input. 

Would it? It came out 2 years after they got divorced and presumably their relationship was deteriorating before then. Unless you've specifically seen him say it did I don't see any reason to assume that.

Beyond that it's just pretty wild speculation to talk about his relationship, or lack thereof, with his ex wife being the issue here when we know there was a very clear cut issue which definitely impacted on the writing of this book.

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8 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Would it? It came out 2 years after they got divorced and presumably their relationship was deteriorating before then. Unless you've specifically seen him say it did I don't see any reason to assume that.

Beyond that it's just pretty wild speculation to talk about his relationship, or lack thereof, with his ex wife being the issue here when we know there was a very clear cut issue which definitely impacted on the writing of this book.

You are correct it is pure speculation on my part.

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It's interesting, I'm for some reason not really having trouble suspending my irritation with the book until BG hits - for example, I really disliked Crossroads of Twilight when reading WoT, and I don't feel that way about this, partly because it feels so transparently like only half of a book.

 

As I mentioned, though, it does feel like there's too much hanging to be satisfyingly resolved during BG. But I'll wait.

 

8 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:
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Good thoughts: 

1.  I like your idea of the conjuritis being related to Maggie coming into her own power.  Curious as to whether you have thoughts about why Harry has developed it rather than Maggie (is it like an adult getting chicken pox if they never got it before?) and how does it tie in with the Christmas eve story?

2.  The Knights have been sent on non-Denarian missions before.  All three of the swords were at Chichen Itza as were Sanya and Murphy (as knight for the day).

3.  The Genoskwa being alive is a poor storytelling choice IMHO: too many villains of the week (like the Red Court) are coming back at one point or another and there is no way any corporeal being could have survived what happened to him at the end of skin games. 

 

 

Couple thoughts:

Spoiler

 

1. Not really sure, but yeah, I am sort of assuming it's contagious / he's catching it from her in some way. The chicken pox analogy is a good one. I do agree that it seems like sort of a silly introduction at this stage that should've been set up previously to feel congruous. I have to reread Christmas Eve.

2. Yeah, agreed - but there is generally a sense of purpose to it, and that doesn't exist yet (obviously the battle against the Titan could be that - but why, for example, wouldn't KOTC have been relevant at the Faerie Queens' attack on Demonreach?

3. Yeah, agreed. Felt like it was done just to do it in some ways.

 

 

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2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Personally I blame the editor. They should have noticed the drop in quality and encouraged (read: forced as much as possible) the go over the book again delays be damned.

I think the editor cared more about the loss of profits from the interruption in the regular publishing schedule.  And you know what, I would have paid $40 for a combined well-edited book. 

But it feels like a ripoff to be paying this money AND suffering the gap between the two books.  I know Jim and his team have worked really hard to gin up excitement this year.  I thought the trailer was fantastic. And I'm sure sales will be very good.  But he definitely needs new Beta readers who can be radically candid with him about maintaining quality in comparison to earlier books.  I nominate Poobah.  

18 minutes ago, BLU-RAY said:

 

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Spoiler

i guess the logic of the KOTC being at the battle of Chicago and not at the Island was that what happened there was already foreseen by Odin.  The whole law of the conservation of time thing.  Odin hasn't foreseen this happening.  But clearly the Almighty has and thinks the KOTC are needed.  Maybe Dresdenverse is a universe with limited predeterminism? I dunno.  I suspect the real answer is that was a Faerie/Murphy/Molly book and this is a reprise of Changes with an Avengers assemble ethos.  

 

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2 hours ago, ljkeane said:

Would it? It came out 2 years after they got divorced and presumably their relationship was deteriorating before then. Unless you've specifically seen him say it did I don't see any reason to assume that.

Beyond that it's just pretty wild speculation to talk about his relationship, or lack thereof, with his ex wife being the issue here when we know there was a very clear cut issue which definitely impacted on the writing of this book.

You are correct that is pure speculation on my part.  

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5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

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1. The central plot around Thomas made no sense. Firstly, Harry never even trying to ask him who pressured him is beyond absurd. It's very much a plot necessity interfering with character behavior.

But most absurd is how we get a cheap rehash "Harry must break into a well protected place by planning a heist" story, which we've seen a few times at least, including the previous book. What's more, the actual heist is utter bullshit. Marcone just left a high-profile prisoner he's sworn by the Accords to hold safely in a basement guarded by a single guard, conveniently close to a chute, and the door to which is held by a regular lock?? And no one comments on how absurdly easy this is? 

Sure, maybe the whole thing was a plan between Marcone, Lara and Mab, but it's too on the nose that they'd leave Thomas in such an obviously unprotected place. There's no way this doesn't make Harry suspicious.

2. Why did the Fomor, or rather, Ethniu, collect together all their enemies to give them a warning before attacking Chicago? Why not take the city by surprise? It's absolutely insane to me that they'd give their enemies all this time to prepare. 

3. Harry telling Ebenezar that Thomas is his grandson after that stupid fight rather than before... Why in the world would he do that? And Harry acting surprised that Ebenezar is less than perfect feels like the author hasn't read the previous books. Didn't he have a multi-book period of rage+concern when he discovered Eb was the Blackstaff?

4. Harry pervs on not one but two women he knew as toddlers. Noticing Ivy's hips, and nothing else, was bad enough, but I literally had to put the book down and stop reading for a while when he started on Hope. This is behavior he has shown well before the Winter Mantle, and in both instances, he just casually sexualizes these women without mentioning the Mantle, which he seems to be getting pretty good at identifying when it's affecting him, so it can't be attributed to Winter. Icky.

5. The whole Harry and Murphy get propositioned for a threesome was bad enough, but as everyone here noted, the Butters thing was just....bizarre.

6. We never got much of the Peace Talks. From what I remember, barring learning that the Ghouls were part of the Accords, we don't meet a single new signatory. All that potential tension and chance for old alliances and enmities to come to the surface and we literally get two bland parties, one of which becomes a cheapo Red Wedding?

7. It's beyond a reasonable stretch that conjuritis and Rings of Fire weren't mentioned before. The first because even Lara knows about it, and Dresden never having heard of it seems absurd. And if a Ring of Fire was so potent, Harry not using it before seems an utter stretch, given his skill with Fire magic.

And so many more. 

 

I agree with all these criticisms, though the only ones that took me out of the story at the time were the Butters threesome and Hope. I've had times like that with Butcher before, though, e.g. Mouse actually talking in Changes was another bit that seemed that seemed more fanservice than good for the story.

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Actually it is worse. At least Elaine, Aviendha and Min were fleshed out characters. Here it is not even good fanservice

True. I still remember Elayne, Aviendha, and Min's names years later. I know "Andy" (Andi?) but already forgot the other one, and I don't think it'll really matter.

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