ASOIAFrelatedusername Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 27 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said: Just misdirection, guys. You're acting like you've never read a fantasy novel before. Jim Butcher is like Robert Jordan. He has a very hard time killing characters. 18 installments into the series and there are basically no casualties yet. . . Susan? Lash? Morgan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said: Susan? Lash? Morgan? Lily. Kirby. Shiro. Kim Delaney (notable because she was Harry's apprentice). Martin. I've got to say I have a certain level of dissatisfaction of my vengeful side. I was really hoping the Formor would have been exterminated to the last fishman by the Unseelie Accord Nations. They killed 20,000 or so human beings but, even more, THEY BROKE THEIR OATHS to the Accord. You can't let that sort of thing slide. King Corb managed to escape and that just doesn't sit right with me. What's going to happen to those guys after this? I feel like the plotline should have been resolved a bit more thoroughly. Also, sadly, now was not the year for Jim Butcher to have a police officer murder an innocent woman due to incompetence. It would just be flat out unbelievable that Rudolph will suffer any consequences for his actions with Murphy. Indeed, the devastation, destruction and chaos in Chicago sadly jits all too close to home. Sansa sparing Rudolph is the Christian thing to do (Humanist Christian in his case?) but dude will utterly coast through the legal system if they even bother investigating after the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Harry dies at the end of the series and gets to meet Murphy in the afterlife. Simples. Like, I'm with Pat that I cannot see Butcher leaving her permanently dead but he's also too careful a long-term writer to state such a specific rule if his intent was to break it. Which only leaves one option really. Lara definitely isn't being written as a replacement for Murph and Murph definitely wasn't killed just to make room for her. That's not only not the relationship they have at alll but the way it was introduced so suddenly served, and I'm positive this was deliberate, to make it certain that Lara was not being used as a true love interest replacement. I do agree with asoiafname on one thing though- what takes it over the line from worthy death to fridging is that she was killed by Rudy specifically to give Harry the Dark Side moment the knights needed to stop. Otherwise I'm certain she'd have fallen truly in battle. The rest of the book was pretty brilliant though. Like I'll undoubtedly find some more cracks once I've had time to process it but I cannot agree on the battle parts being boring. Probably goes down as an all-timer in fantasy battles for me. And also finds time to weave in hints for the future beyond the immediate ones, and some character developments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Does anyone actually think Harry and Murphy were a good romance, let alone an epic one?I mourn Murphy terribly but wish to God we could move past the idea male and female characters have to be romantically involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 48 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: Does anyone actually think Harry and Murphy were a good romance, let alone an epic one? Reveal hidden contents I mourn Murphy terribly but wish to God we could move past the idea male and female characters have to be romantically involved. Yes. I like Harry and Murphy. They are honest with one another. You will never convince me on Harry/Molly. Until they’re both in their second century of life it’s simply inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASOIAFrelatedusername Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, polishgenius said: Hide contents Harry dies at the end of the series and gets to meet Murphy in the afterlife. Simples. Like, I'm with Pat that I cannot see Butcher leaving her permanently dead but he's also too careful a long-term writer to state such a specific rule if his intent was to break it. Which only leaves one option really. Lara definitely isn't being written as a replacement for Murph and Murph definitely wasn't killed just to make room for her. That's not only not the relationship they have at alll but the way it was introduced so suddenly served, and I'm positive this was deliberate, to make it certain that Lara was not being used as a true love interest replacement. I do agree with asoiafname on one thing though- what takes it over the line from worthy death to fridging is that she was killed by Rudy specifically to give Harry the Dark Side moment the knights needed to stop. Otherwise I'm certain she'd have fallen truly in battle. The rest of the book was pretty brilliant though. Like I'll undoubtedly find some more cracks once I've had time to process it but I cannot agree on the battle parts being boring. Probably goes down as an all-timer in fantasy battles for me. And also finds time to weave in hints for the future beyond the immediate ones, and some character developments. Spoiler Well. It could be to get him together Molly and if it were not for PT, I suspect that this would be the endgame. With PT and with how off Lara felt there, I am about 70% convinced that Lara is now the new designated love interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 13 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said: Sadly, they specifically addressed that in a way that preclude any possibility while not leaving it too depressing. I don't see Gard saying so as an example of a reliable narrator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 2 hours ago, polishgenius said: Hide contents Harry dies at the end of the series and gets to meet Murphy in the afterlife. Simples. Like, I'm with Pat that I cannot see Butcher leaving her permanently dead but he's also too careful a long-term writer to state such a specific rule if his intent was to break it. Which only leaves one option really. Lara definitely isn't being written as a replacement for Murph and Murph definitely wasn't killed just to make room for her. That's not only not the relationship they have at alll but the way it was introduced so suddenly served, and I'm positive this was deliberate, to make it certain that Lara was not being used as a true love interest replacement. I do agree with asoiafname on one thing though- what takes it over the line from worthy death to fridging is that she was killed by Rudy specifically to give Harry the Dark Side moment the knights needed to stop. Otherwise I'm certain she'd have fallen truly in battle. Spoiler 1. I like the Harry/Murphy romance. I dislike a Harry/Molly romance. Now that I've gotten my own views out of the way, I think Murphy's death has been in the cards for a while (as you say, it can be characterized as fridging). One plot reason is to set up the Harry/Molly romance. 2. I get that her death gave Harry his Dark Side moment. But why, exactly, did he need that moment? It didn't seem like it accomplished anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said: Does anyone actually think Harry and Murphy were a good romance, let alone an epic one? Hide contents I mourn Murphy terribly but wish to God we could move past the idea male and female characters have to be romantically involved. Spoiler I sympathize with the last part of your wish but (i) I think romance (done right) adds colour and interest to stories; and (ii) Lara and Molly would like to have a word with you. I liked the Harry-Susan romance, didn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Yes. I like Harry and Murphy. They are honest with one another. You will never convince me on Harry/Molly. Until they’re both in their second century of life it’s simply inappropriate. That could definitely happen in this series. As for the subject of fridging. I think Murphy's death served the purpose of being the designated Boromir as opposed to just being there to remove her from the status of love interest as well as gives Harry his "if you kill him, you'll be just like him" ROTJ moment. Jim Butcher is trying to establish as the biggest battle in the history of the setting, even bigger than Changes, and that means that a major character has to die. Nathan Hendricks, Wild Bill, and others aren't going to be enough to sell this serious. Murphy was a bold choice, possibly an incorrect one, but one that establishes the stakes. It also makes an actually important point about the senselessness of war's deaths. Not everyone is going to die epically in battle with Fire Giants and so on, which Murphy survived I should point out. A lot of people get killed by random fire, friendly fire, disease, and other things in war. I think I may be cutting Jim a lot more slack than usual because it unfortunately hit at a very good time. Rudolph being an incompetently trained officer, stupidly antagonist, smug in his self-righteousness, and basically everything Murphy isn't makes his accidentally killing her symbolic at a time when we're re-examining police in America. So it hits much harder and more relevantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Patrek Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, AverageGuy said: I don't see Gard saying so as an example of a reliable narrator. That. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASOIAFrelatedusername Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Spoiler Honestly Murphy's death reminds me more of Kirk's in Generations than of Boromir's. Boromir fell from grace and had to atone in death, Kirk fell from some shoddy construction work and Murphy died because some pathetic worm did not have any trigger discipline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said: That. Why? She's an actual valkyrie. You could say the same of Odin himself I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Patrek Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Well, we shall see. . . It might take over a decade, but I'm sure she'll be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 The next book is MIRROR, MIRROR. So, I assume Murphy will be in the next book. It'll just be Murphynate who hates Harry because he's an evil guy who sacrificed Susan to let the Red Court-White Council peace last a few more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said: Why? She's an actual valkyrie. You could say the same of Odin himself I suppose. Spoiler I believe that Odin isn't allowed to bring her back. He can be constrained; he's neither all-knowing or all-powerful, and that's fine; we see plenty of his limitations in this book. I don't think that's the same as she's never coming back. It could be Butcher handwaving to keep her dead despite the obvious out, but if he really wanted to keep her dead he should have had Uriel come tell Harry he took her. Murphy was Catholic, Uriel was present in the book, Dresdenverse seems to go with heaven being forever. Instead she's sitting around in Valhalla with a group of people who regularly come back to Earth as mercenaries. Even if she couldn't come back to Earth, Harry should be able to get to Valhalla. He just went to Hades and came back. The Orpheus scenario also seems obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 I'm assuming Murphy will be in the Christian Heaven until her time to return. Then again, I think Jim Butcher's gods work like a Justice League against evil. Odin, Hades, and the White God are all on Team Humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Copy arrives tomorrow... Better not suck, not after the disappointment thst was Peace Talks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Just finished. Better than the slugfest in Memory of Light but only just. So, whe Eb, LtW, Martha Liberty, and the Gatekeeper get together will they move to reverse Harry’s banishment? What does the Grey Council have to say about Harry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Just finished. Better than the slugfest in Memory of Light but only just. Spoiler Did you find Murphy's death justified? And the Lara wedding shenanigans? I doubt the Grey Council will be able to do anything to reverse Harry's expulsion. I think the Grey Council will be happy to use Harry -- not so happy to help him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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