Dresden Files (most recent thread is archived) Peace Talks is finished

[fionwe1987]

On 7/27/2020 at 8:49 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

I actually think you're 100% wrong is why I brought it up.

Mab is at least 1000+ Years old and far more powerful than the White Council.

Ethniu is at least 2000+ years old and thus far more powerful than Mab.

The White Council is about 200+ or so and thus far more powerful than Harry.

So what am I missing?

Molly is younger than Harry. Younger than Carlos. Yet she's clearly more powerful than them. I think that's kind of the point being made. Same for Lily, who certainly seemed more than capable of ending Dresden in a flash if she focused on the task. 

That said, it's pretty clear from this book that Molly the Winter Lady isn't just Molly with more power. She's literally is melded in with the Winter Lady's mantle, and that seems to transform her spiritually. And if Mab is any indication, she literally cannot be killed, except under specific circumstances, in specific places. In fact, didn't Dresden say killing Maeve was a meaningless task, before Bob revealed the whole Halloween exception to immortality?

 

To me I think "age" in human terms is a proxy for spiritual heft. The older you get, the more your soul gets "denser", I'd say. And the examples of humans who jump up in power despite their age are all ones who absorbed that heft in other ways, but those ways also have vulnerabilities.

In that sense, I think Molly and Mab aren't great examples. The best example is Ivy, who is significantly younger than most characters, yet Dresden is pretty clear, and there's evidence to support, that she is a level above even the Summer and Winter Ladies, and may well be on par with the Queens. And we know her power is a kind of inherited mantle, too. It's a construct like Bob, only infinitely vaster in scale, residing inside a human. Seems pretty clear that makes her spiritually a lot heftier than even human wizards who have lived a few centuries. 

But none of this explains Luccio. Her reduction in power makes no sense. If the Corpsetaker can jump body to body and keep her powers intact, why can't Luccio? Either it's a major plot hole, or we're going to see her realize she's holding herself back by her discomfort with her body, and she eventually "levels up" to her near-Senior Council level strength.

[Derfel Cadarn]

6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Molly is younger than Harry. Younger than Carlos. Yet she's clearly more powerful than them. I think that's kind of the point being made. Same for Lily, who certainly seemed more than capable of ending Dresden in a flash if she focused on the task. 

That said, it's pretty clear from this book that Molly the Winter Lady isn't just Molly with more power. She's literally is melded in with the Winter Lady's mantle, and that seems to transform her spiritually. And if Mab is any indication, she literally cannot be killed, except under specific circumstances, in specific places. In fact, didn't Dresden say killing Maeve was a meaningless task, before Bob revealed the whole Halloween exception to immortality?

 

To me I think "age" in human terms is a proxy for spiritual heft. The older you get, the more your soul gets "denser", I'd say. And the examples of humans who jump up in power despite their age are all ones who absorbed that heft in other ways, but those ways also have vulnerabilities.

In that sense, I think Molly and Mab aren't great examples. The best example is Ivy, who is significantly younger than most characters, yet Dresden is pretty clear, and there's evidence to support, that she is a level above even the Summer and Winter Ladies, and may well be on par with the Queens. And we know her power is a kind of inherited mantle, too. It's a construct like Bob, only infinitely vaster in scale, residing inside a human. Seems pretty clear that makes her spiritually a lot heftier than even human wizards who have lived a few centuries. 

But none of this explains Luccio. Her reduction in power makes no sense. If the Corpsetaker can jump body to body and keep her powers intact, why can't Luccio? Either it's a major plot hole, or we're going to see her realize she's holding herself back by her discomfort with her body, and she eventually "levels up" to her near-Senior Council level strength.

Maybe the Corpsetaker had to do something specific to keep their power, whereas didn’t do it when movong Luccio’s soul, and so something was lost?

[C.T. Phipps]

Sadly, Luccio seems to have been written out on a massive way.

[fionwe1987]

Yeah I can't say I'm a fan of how underused she is. Same with Elaine. 

But that seems to be a thing with all of Harry's girlfriends. Which is why seeing Murphy start on that path has been frustrating. Whether she dies or retires, it's pretty clear she won't be front and center on more Dresden adventures. 

[BLU-RAY]

Yeah, I have considered why I don’t really like Murphy as a character and realized that I do actually like her, I just really don’t like her as Harry’s love interest... but I suspect that’s because I don’t really like Harry that much either, and am not altogether interested in his romantic entanglements. And I did enjoy Luccio’s cameos, so it sucks she isn’t around as much now.

[C.T. Phipps]

I never have forgiven Murphy for betraying Harry in Fool Moon. Harry has always ended up apologizing and backing down even when he does the right thing so I don't support Harry and Murphy.

Ever.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I never have forgiven Murphy for betraying Harry in Fool Moon. Harry has always ended up apologizing and backing down even when he does the right thing so I don't support Harry and Murphy.

Ever.

They stand up to each other.  They balance each other.  I like Murphy/Harry.

Harry and Molly will always be weird because of the teacher/student dynamic.  

[Gaston de Foix]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

They stand up to each other.  They balance each other.  I like Murphy/Harry.

Harry and Molly will always be weird because of the teacher/student dynamic.  

Balance is the right word.  And the fact that she's a normal is a big plus for me.  It changes from this is a story about people who have awesome powers to this is a story about humans, some of whom have awesome powers.  

As GRRM likes to quote: the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.  

[ljkeane]

9 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

As GRRM likes to quote: the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.  

That and zombie dinosaurs.

[BLU-RAY]

Yeah, I actually quite enjoy Murphy and Harry as colleagues and how they work together, and I like her perspective on the supernatural world (and given my previously stated preferences, I like that she's an excuse for Butcher to infodump). I just don't enjoy them as romantic partners, and again I suspect that that is because I don't really enjoy Harry as a person a ton.

Agree that the Harry/Molly thing is/should be a no-go, at least in the immediate term - a hundred years down the road or whatever it's difficult to apply the usual mores, but for now it'd be weird. 

[C.T. Phipps]

I think if Harry can't date Molly when she's thirty, which she'll be in 2020 assuming the books catch up, then it's infantalizing an adult woman.

Mind you, I hate Harry/Murphy because I feel the fact the two leads having to look up is a toxic idea about relationships. I felt the same about Mulder and Scully.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think if Harry can't date Molly when she's thirty, which she'll be in 2020 assuming the books catch up, then it's infantalizing an adult woman.

Mind you, I hate Harry/Murphy because I feel the fact the two leads having to look up is a toxic idea about relationships. I felt the same about Mulder and Scully.

It’s not the age difference.  It’s the mentor/mentee relationship and there being no separation between them since he knew her as a child.  If they didn’t interact for several years then came to know one another again several years later... that’s a somewhat different story.  It would allow time for them to see each other outside the contex of Adult and Child/Mentor and Mentee.  Then it’s possible to ameliorate the power differential between them.

[C.T. Phipps]

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It’s not the age difference.  It’s the mentor/mentee relationship and there being no separation between them since he knew her as a child.  If they didn’t interact for several years then came to know one another again several years later... that’s a somewhat different story.  It would allow time for them to see each other outside the contex of Adult and Child/Mentor and Mentee.  Then it’s possible to ameliorate the power differential between them.

I get what you're saying and I'm saying that if you're telling a woman in her 30s that she is unable to make decisions for herself based on a relationship from a decade ago, you're not treating her as an adult. I don't begrudge you the fact that you don't support it and your reasons, I just don't think that it applies after a decade since Harry taught her.

Harry hasn't been her mentor since Changes, Leanansidhe has and now Molly is HIS boss.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I get what you're saying and I'm saying that if you're telling a woman in her 30s that she is unable to make decisions for herself based on a relationship from a decade ago, you're not treating her as an adult. I don't begrudge you the fact that you don't support it and your reasons, I just don't think that it applies after a decade since Harry taught her.

Harry hasn't been her mentor since Changes, Leanansidhe has and now Molly is HIS boss.

And the time period since Harry has been Molly mentor is much shorter in story than it is for us in the real world.  I'm not saying Molly... can't... want a relationship with Harry.  I'm saying I have no problem with Harry not wanting a relationship with Molly.

[Gaston de Foix]

Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

I get what you're saying and I'm saying that if you're telling a woman in her 30s that she is unable to make decisions for herself based on a relationship from a decade ago, you're not treating her as an adult.

It's not about restraining Molly.  She can have a relationship with anyone she wants (well actually she literally can't but you get what I'm saying).

It's about Dresden (and any teachers') obligation to someone they've mentored.  The mentor-protege relationship is a significant one in any society.  And it's been abused by men through time immemorial.  You can look at Picasso's relationships as an example. 

And the fact that Molly is now in her thirties (is she really?) doesn't reduce the ickiness in principle.  After all if 30 is okay, why not 21? And if 21 is okay why not 18? And if 18 is okay why not 15 in Paris? It's not the age gap.  It's the power disparity that once existed and to some extent will always remain.  

[fionwe1987]

21 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think if Harry can't date Molly when she's thirty, which she'll be in 2020 assuming the books catch up, then it's infantalizing an adult woman.

Mind you, I hate Harry/Murphy because I feel the fact the two leads having to look up is a toxic idea about relationships. I felt the same about Mulder and Scully.

It would be the same if Harry was a woman and Molly a guy. And as others said, it isn't about Molly not being allowed to want the relationship. It's about Harry not being allowed to act on her desire for a relationship without it coming across as icky. 

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

 

[C.T. Phipps]

5 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

And the fact that Molly is now in her thirties (is she really?) doesn't reduce the ickiness in principle.  After all if 30 is okay, why not 21? And if 21 is okay why not 18? And if 18 is okay why not 15 in Paris? It's not the age gap.  It's the power disparity that once existed and to some extent will always remain.  

Probably because 30 is a perfectly good time to illustrate when it's ridiculous to hold a woman's past relationships against her. Molly hasn't been Harry's student for years, wasn't his student that long, and is presumably by that time to be in control of her emotions (which is a pretty sexist idea that she's not anyway).

We HAVE an example of how fans treat things VERY differently between sexes. Because Luccio and Harry are never given the same treatment by fans despite:

* Luccio being Harry's boss

* Luccio being centuries older than Harry

* Luccio being Harry's mentor in the Wardens.

* Luccio having vast more knowledge than Harry.

I think if Harry/Luccio was okay then certainly Molly and Harry can be.

[Gaston de Foix]

8 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Probably because 30 is a perfectly good time to illustrate when it's ridiculous to hold a woman's past relationships against her. Molly hasn't been Harry's student for years, wasn't his student that long, and is presumably by that time to be in control of her emotions (which is a pretty sexist idea that she's not anyway).

We HAVE an example of how fans treat things VERY differently between sexes. Because Luccio and Harry are never given the same treatment by fans despite:

* Luccio being Harry's boss

* Luccio being centuries older than Harry

* Luccio being Harry's mentor in the Wardens.

* Luccio having vast more knowledge than Harry.

I think if Harry/Luccio was okay then certainly Molly and Harry can be.

It's not about Molly's emotions and her control of them.

[although it is a delicious irony that everything you are saying is literally untrue in the Dresdenverse. Molly is obviously not in control of her emotions as what happened to Carlos demonstrates.  It's a pretty big leap to say that the position has completely changed by now.  Hell, Mab is not in control of her emotions when it comes to love.]

Also the duration of her apprenticeship to Harry and the passage of time since then does not diminish the fact that her professional association with Harry is incredibly significant to her personally.  Remember she became the Winter Lady in Cold Days in part because of her relationship with Harry. 

He inspired the development of her magical abilities, saved her lives multiple times and she was deeply in love with him.  

Luccio and Harry didn't have anything like that prior to them starting to date.  Really that is what a healthy relationship between professional colleagues look like.  

One of my friends in high school secretly dated her father's best friend. She was 17, he was in his 40/50s.  He was her first "love".  It ended as well as you might expect when her parents found out.  When I try to put my finger on what was wrong about the relationship the asymmetry stands out again and again. Her decisions were messed up but his were fucked up.  

[C.T. Phipps]

3 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

One of my friends in high school secretly dated her father's best friend. She was 17, he was in his 40/50s.  He was her first "love".  It ended as well as you might expect when her parents found out.  When I try to put my finger on what was wrong about the relationship the asymmetry stands out again and again. Her decisions were messed up but his were fucked up.  

Boiled down to it, I have severe issues comparing the relationship of two adults to one that isn't.

Mind you, I don't think Molly is the same as she was when she was a teenager.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Boiled down to it, I have severe issues comparing the relationship of two adults to one that isn't.

Mind you, I don't think Molly is the same as she was when she was a teenager.

You keep focusing on Molly.  It’s Harry’s side that concerns almost everyone.