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Ser Scot A Ellison

Dresden Files (most recent thread is archived) Peace Talks is finished

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15 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That’s further out than I would have thought.

I think we likely get spoiled by the quick turnaround on A listers.  This is probably more standard for most authors I’m betting.

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On 6/17/2019 at 10:14 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yuck, yuck, yuck.  A grown adult who knew someone as an impressionable child should never get into a physical relationship with that person.  The power differential is always going to make it weird.

I agree with you Ser Scott.  But didn't JB at some points drop some hints the only way for Harry to leave the Winter Knight gig is through Molly.  There is some kind of real world legend he was adverting to.  Does anyone remember?

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Okay... I finished Skin Game.  Now I feel safe to ask, why would anyone think Harry is getting together with Molly at this point?

The status quo at this point is that he and Murph are finally ready to cross the line they had both put up.

:dunno: 

And, I’m still with Scot.  Not only is there the “knew her in pigtails” and “dad’s best friend” dynamic, but he was her teacher. We frown on that in polite society even after the pupil graduates.  Power dynamics are never quite right.

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8 hours ago, Rhom said:

Okay... I finished Skin Game.  Now I feel safe to ask, why would anyone think Harry is getting together with Molly at this point?

The status quo at this point is that he and Murph are finally ready to cross the line they had both put up.

:dunno: 

And, I’m still with Scot.  Not only is there the “knew her in pigtails” and “dad’s best friend” dynamic, but he was her teacher. We frown on that in polite society even after the pupil graduates.  Power dynamics are never quite right.

Probably because Murphy and Harry would make a terrible couple, everyone knows this, and it's a dead horse romance that I wish would finally be let to die.

I support Molly/Harry because I find it disgusting that we're expected to assume that men are to view daughters as the property of their fathers and not allow them to mentally grow up in our minds but forever be, "Michael's daughter" -- doubly so in the context of the fact wizards are centuries old. Basically, I strongly object to infantalizing women and I feel that a lot of the objections boil down to treating a 25+ year old woman who will now be close to 30 as a tween.

But literally ANYONE is better than Murphy and Harry at this point.

Harry/Butters? All for it.

Edited by C.T. Phipps

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11 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Probably because Murphy and Harry would make a terrible couple, everyone knows this, and it's a dead horse romance that I wish would finally be let to die.

I support Molly/Harry because I find it disgusting that we're expected to assume that men are to view daughters as the property of their fathers and not allow them to mentally grow up in our minds but forever be, "Michael's daughter" -- doubly so in the context of the fact wizards are centuries old. Basically, I strongly object to infantalizing women and I feel that a lot of the objections boil down to treating a 25+ year old woman who will now be close to 30 as a tween.

But literally ANYONE is better than Murphy and Harry at this point.

Harry/Butters? All for it.

The issue for me is not and has never been Molly is Michael’s property.  Nor would Michael Carpenter ever claim any of his Children as “property”.  That’s a straw man.  

Harry recognizes the power dynamic problem in his Relationship with Molly.  Molly always saw Harry as a surrogate for her father.  Molly always idolized Harry.  The relationship, will always have that problem.  It is inappropriate until they have lived apart and had separate lives for a significant period of time.  

Decades.  

Until then I remain steadfast in my belief that Harry is correct in declining to have any sort of sexual relationship with Molly and see that ship as moderately Nabakovian until the conditions I suggest have been met.  

Heck, Molly still calls Harry “boss” and they have been out of the “apprentice/master” relationship for less than two years story time.

I do not understand the objection to Harry and Murphy.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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On 9/6/2019 at 7:13 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I do not understand the objection to Harry and Murphy.

It's the fact that they've been friends for decades, it's the entirety of the book, they have a working relationship that will be disrupted by such a romance, and the fact that in terms of power balance, Murphy is about 1000 times less appropriate than Molly in that Harry and she have superpowers while she doesn't.

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's the fact that they've been friends for decades, it's the entirety of the book, they have a working relationship that will be disrupted by such a romance, and the fact that in terms of power balance, Murphy is about 1000 times less appropriate than Molly in that Harry and she have superpowers while she doesn't.

We aren’t talking about personal power when we say “power imbalance” (Molly could re-arrange Harry’s brain easily).  We’re talking about the power in the relationship.  Harry and Karen have always been colleagues and friends.  Never Teacher and Student.  It is the latter relationship that creates problems, not the former.

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13 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's the fact that they've been friends for decades, it's the entirety of the book, they have a working relationship that will be disrupted by such a romance, and the fact that in terms of power balance, Murphy is about 1000 times less appropriate than Molly in that Harry and she have superpowers while she doesn't.

1. I don't think there will be a working relationship between Harry and Murphy anymore: I think the injuries Murphy suffered in Skin Game will essentially end her career as unofficial sheriff of Chicago. And Harry's day-to-day job is not policing Chicago either. 

2.  I think Harry will have relationships with both Murphy and Molly.  I suspect Peace Talks is Murphy's last book.  Molly's relationship with Harry has some way to unfold.  And the fact she is a virgin, despite near-misses with Thomas and Carlos, is a significant plot point. 

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Far and away my least favorite part of this wonderfully entertaining series are Harry's inner monologues about his romances. Some if it feels very cringy (I agree that he has far too much of a father-figure mentor thing for Molly, and them having sex would make me feel incredibly icky), and some of it hits closer to home (specifically the longstanding Murphy thing) as I have a complicated platonic-but-perhaps-more relationship for the better part of a decade now that mirrors some of Harry's thoughts. I'd like if both of those were permanently tabled, and we meet a new flame that isn't immediately embroiled in occult drama, but we all know that isn't going to happen. Really I just miss Susan, who I thought was just rockin'.

Man, do I need to re-read about the last 6 or 8 books. So many crazy changes have happened (hell he had to name a book that simply because shit's getting so bonkers) that I can't keep track of anything. I need to make a flow chart of Harry's powers and alliances, who's perma-dead, who's making power moves, and what wild conspiracy theories I believe.

I've never read too much about Butcher's initial plans for this series. The first two books are wonderfully pulpy afternoon reads with minor teases about a greater world. Things escalate dramatically into the crazy complex world we're seeing now, with wildly epic plotlines. Did Butcher plan for the immensity of the conflicts that early? Or did he make some fun detective-and-wizard books, then found out he had a whole lot more underneath to explore?

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I too miss Susan.  Or even the brief period with that other warden (can't remember her name).  I don't like the idea of getting together with Murphy, partly because they're good friends, partly because the age imbalance (what with Harry being a wizard) will only lead to more sadness.  I also think Murphy would be smarter and healthier to get out of the madness of the occult world.  She's done brilliantly, but you can't keep playing out of your league and not getting hurt (more).  

If anything happens with Molly, it should be after decades at the least.  Given they do now have a working relationship, I'm not sure if I'd be thrilled with that either down the road.  

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17 hours ago, ants said:

I too miss Susan.  Or even the brief period with that other warden (can't remember her name).  I don't like the idea of getting together with Murphy, partly because they're good friends, partly because the age imbalance (what with Harry being a wizard) will only lead to more sadness.  I also think Murphy would be smarter and healthier to get out of the madness of the occult world.  She's done brilliantly, but you can't keep playing out of your league and not getting hurt (more).  

If anything happens with Molly, it should be after decades at the least.  Given they do now have a working relationship, I'm not sure if I'd be thrilled with that either down the road.  

Anastasia.  And the fact that she was the victim of mind control really yucked that one up.

On 9/5/2019 at 7:24 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

Harry/Butters? All for it.

I know this is tongue in cheek... but Harry is pretty obviously not just straight, but also maybe a bit homophobic.  Evidenced at least in part by his insistence on which ear to have Mab pierce.

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22 hours ago, Rhom said:

Anastasia.  And the fact that she was the victim of mind control really yucked that one up.

I know this is tongue in cheek... but Harry is pretty obviously not just straight, but also maybe a bit homophobic.  Evidenced at least in part by his insistence on which ear to have Mab pierce.

I think this may be the rare instance where JB's views come across as dated.  There's his reference to the gay "lifestyle" Martin was supposedly catering to in Changes.  Then again, there's also his libertarian defence of men cruising for gay sex to Titania in Cold Days.  And his willingness to exploit his supposed gay relationship with Thomas to obtain information in White Night (I think). 

But given that the novels are heavily influenced by catholic beliefs (and in fact subtly evangelize catholicism), this is not so much of a surprise. 

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I tend to regard some of Harry's earlier sexism (reasonably benevolent sexism rather than misogyny, but still) as a feature and not a bug because it landed him in trouble more than once, and I read it as something that he's been shown to work through and progress on.  Given the sheer length of time the series has been running and corresponding societal shifts in the US, I think Butcher himself has also probably had some changes in POV?  He has, at least, gotten better about Chicago geography.  (I wish the U of C had been in Lincoln Park...)

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I think Butcher is trying not to be homophobic but is clumsy about it due to his small town upbringing. He wants Harry to be progressive but doesn't seem to have much experience in showing it so he made some cringy bits.

Edited by C.T. Phipps

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18 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think Butcher is trying not to be homophobic but is clumsy about it due to his small town upbringing.

I wouldn't consider a metro area of over 2 million people a small town, but you do you.

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27 minutes ago, RedEyedGhost said:

I wouldn't consider a metro area of over 2 million people a small town, but you do you.

I went to school in the Quad Cities, which has over 1 million in the surrounding areas.

A friend of mine from New Jersey just outside NYC asked me “So do you consider this a city?”  My response “Well yeah it’s a city... it’s got one way streets!”

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I just finished Side Jobs and Brief Cases.  Loved them.  I really liked the stories in Brief Cases quite a bit.  I liked seeing him branch out into PoVs from Butters/Molly/Thomas/Marcone/Mouse(!!!).  I especially liked Molly's PoV chapters.  Her view of Harry vs Harry's own view of himself was really telling I thought.  Those were great reads.  It also filled in a few gaps like the mention River Shoulders got in Skin Game that I had no reference for when reading the book.

Feel like I'm all caught up and ready for Peace Talks!  (Although, I think I saw that there is a new short story anthology coming out with some sort of Dresden story in it... but I have never been one to purchase those things.  Maybe break down and get it in Kindle format or something and just read the Butcher story.)

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On 10/12/2019 at 10:03 AM, Rhom said:

I just finished Side Jobs and Brief Cases.  Loved them.  I really liked the stories in Brief Cases quite a bit.  I liked seeing him branch out into PoVs from Butters/Molly/Thomas/Marcone/Mouse(!!!).  I especially liked Molly's PoV chapters.  Her view of Harry vs Harry's own view of himself was really telling I thought.  Those were great reads.  It also filled in a few gaps like the mention River Shoulders got in Skin Game that I had no reference for when reading the book.

Feel like I'm all caught up and ready for Peace Talks!  (Although, I think I saw that there is a new short story anthology coming out with some sort of Dresden story in it... but I have never been one to purchase those things.  Maybe break down and get it in Kindle format or something and just read the Butcher story.)

The short story is pretty disappointing, although JB generally does them pretty well.  I would skip this one. 

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12 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

The short story is pretty disappointing, although JB generally does them pretty well.  I would skip this one. 

Good to know.  Safe to wait for the next collection of Dresden stories and get it en masse then.

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