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Why didn’t the Wildlings tell the NW about the Others?


Tyrion1991

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We see with Crasters that the NW and Wildlings do treat with each other and that there is a degree of pragmatism. So they obviously don’t consider this a genocidal zero sum game. 

So why, when they learn that Ice Daemons and the dead walk didn’t they send somebody and just tell the Old Bear?

The rangers are running in to the Undead. Benjin says he’s seen reports. So, what gives exactly? What do they have to lose?

They could call a ceasefire, show some rangers proof and then once the facts are known talk about maybe slowly letting the Wildlings through the Wall. Plus you could have wildlings go back to the capital with proof.

It came across as kind of stupid that there was this level of ignorance and lack of communication by both sides. To the point of being contrived. Even in a war, even forgetting neutral parties like Crasters, you can get dialogues between hated enemies. It happens all the time in the real world. I don’t think it’s that unreasonable that this would happen, especially because it’s kind of what does happen in ADWD.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Baelor 'Breakspear' said:

Also the free folk hate the NW

Craster deals with them. 

America and Britain hated Stalins Soviet Union but still allied with them. After Hitler allied with Stalin. So there’s no reason they can’t bury the hatchet and talk to the NW. I am not sure how this isn’t a fantasy trope that two groups are eternal enemies who don’t even talk. Guess it’s too edgy to be considered one.

The real reason is for plot convenience. The early Jon chapters rely on the mystery of the Others. But the Wildlings know more than we do; so they can’t just be telling the NW about the coming onslaught. Instead we have to be drip fed it cryptically.

It also gives a reason for the Old bear to lead his expedition and creates something for the NW to do until the Others finally step fully into the stage.

Finally, it gives Jon a problem to solve and something to do in his by trying to sort out a problem which shouldn’t exist. So he gets to unite Wildlings and Northmen. 

Which is why you couldn’t have Mance just send people with proof to talk to the Old Bear.

 

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5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Craster deals with them. 

America and Britain hated Stalins Soviet Union but still allied with them. After Hitler allied with Stalin. So there’s no reason they can’t bury the hatchet and talk to the NW. I am not sure how this isn’t a fantasy trope that two groups are eternal enemies who don’t even talk. Guess it’s too edgy to be considered one.

The real reason is for plot convenience. The early Jon chapters rely on the mystery of the Others. But the Wildlings know more than we do; so they can’t just be telling the NW about the coming onslaught. Instead we have to be drip fed it cryptically.

It also gives a reason for the Old bear to lead his expedition and creates something for the NW to do until the Others finally step fully into the stage.

Finally, it gives Jon a problem to solve and something to do in his by trying to sort out a problem which shouldn’t exist. So he gets to unite Wildlings and Northmen. 

Which is why you couldn’t have Mance just send people with proof to talk to the Old Bear.

 

Wildling are not well organized tho and are 'uncivilized'

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15 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Craster deals with them. 

Pretty sure Craster is ostracized by the rest of the Free Folk, thanks to the whole “marrying his daughters and sacrificing his sons” thing. Which honestly makes Craster a terrible example for your premise - Craster has a mildly tenable relationship with the Nights Watch, and even he didn’t tell them he was sacrificing his sons to the White Walkers. Yes, they knew his sons all died, but they did not know he was giving them to the ultimate enemy. 

Craster only dealt with the Rangers as a means of survival - without the assistance of a larger community, Craster’s only hope for survival was the additional resources he got from the Rangers. The rest of the Free Folk have spent their lives battling the Nights Watch, and they’ve survived by taking what they need, not by asking nicely, so it’s understandable they would be hesitant to walk up to a group of guys, whose sole job is keep them from crossing the wall, and tell them the undead are alive and coming to kill us all. And as we’ve seen, even after knowing the Others are real, decent portions of both groups are still hesitant to work together, but especially the Nights Watch (see the mutiny against Jon Snow, as one example). So yeah, I think the actions of the Free Folk are pretty on point when considering how they’ve been treated up to this point. 

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5 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Pretty sure Craster is ostracized by the rest of the Free Folk, thanks to the whole “marrying his daughters and sacrificing his sons” thing. Which honestly makes Craster a terrible example for your premise - Craster has a mildly tenable relationship with the Nights Watch, and even he didn’t tell them he was sacrificing his sons to the White Walkers. Yes, they knew his sons all died, but they did not know he was giving them to the ultimate enemy. 

Craster only dealt with the Rangers as a means of survival - without the assistance of a larger community, Craster’s only hope for survival was the additional resources he got from the Rangers. The rest of the Free Folk have spent their lives battling the Nights Watch, and they’ve survived by taking what they need, not by asking nicely, so it’s understandable they would be hesitant to walk up to a group of guys, whose sole job is keep them from crossing the wall, and tell them the undead are alive and coming to kill us all. And as we’ve seen, even after knowing the Others are real, decent portions of both groups are still hesitant to work together, but especially the Nights Watch (see the mutiny against Jon Snow, as one example). So yeah, I think the actions of the Free Folk are pretty on point when considering how they’ve been treated up to this point. 

agreed.  The wildlings hate Craster, I think it was even Tormund who said to Mance that he doesn't understand why Mance doesn't chop Craster's head off.  Craster is neither a wildling or a NW- they both hate him but barely tolerate him due to his limited usefulness.

And yes, I don't think that even had the wildlings attempted to treat with the NW and told them about the Others, it would change anything.  The NW would not believe them until they saw for themselves at the Fist of the First Men, they would have no reason to believe them and no reason to ally.  

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4 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

agreed.  The wildlings hate Craster, I think it was even Tormund who said to Mance that he doesn't understand why Mance doesn't chop Craster's head off.  Craster is neither a wildling or a NW- they both hate him but barely tolerate him due to his limited usefulness.

And yes, I don't think that even had the wildlings attempted to treat with the NW and told them about the Others, it would change anything.  The NW would not believe them until they saw for themselves at the Fist of the First Men, they would have no reason to believe them and no reason to ally.  

 

Does it hurt them to try? They would have proof. They could offer to show them. 

At best they let them through the wall. At worst they say no and the Wildlings overrun a weakened NW. Either way they win. It’s not rational and it’s done to keep the mystery of the Others threat for longer.

Plus it gives something for Jon to do. If they were willing to talk from the off there would be less conflict so everybody has to be very stupid for several books until we need to wheel Jon out as the “great unifier of men”. 

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You're seriously undermining the enmity between both sides. Mance has no reason to believe the NW are going to listen to them. Hence he's amassed a huge host and made a plan of attack. It's only the forewarning and subsequent actions of Jon that force the two sides into a stalemate at the wall. And it's there that we witness a small parley between Mance and Jon. Then Stannis arrives!
Elsewise, the free folk would of found CB undefended with the gates wide open thanks to the Thenns. Mance and the free folk weren't going to 'ask' for anything from the NW. There's politics to consider. Neither side has any reason to trust the other. 

The NW is rife with men who despise the Wildings. As is the North. They've lost brothers to Wildling raids. Furthermore these two sides hold contradictory beliefs that will make co-operation very difficult. The Wildlings won't kneel. Not to anyone. 

Both sides were expecting a battle with each-other. Their mutual hatred of one another goes down to the bone. It took the efforts of Jon and pressure from Stannis (an outsider who only wanted men to bulk his numbers) in order to achieve the truce they currently have. And that is thin ice indeed. 

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2 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

You're seriously undermining the enmity between both sides. Mance has no reason to believe the NW are going to listen to them. Hence he's amassed a huge host and made a plan of attack. It's only the forewarning and subsequent actions of Jon that force the two sides into a stalemate at the wall. And it's there that we witness a small parley between Mance and Jon. Then Stannis arrives!
Elsewise, the free folk would of found CB undefended with the gates wide open thanks to the Thenns. Mance and the free folk weren't going to 'ask' for anything from the NW. There's politics to consider. Neither side has any reason to trust the other. 

The NW is rife with men who despise the Wildings. As is the North. They've lost brothers to Wildling raids. Furthermore these two sides hold contradictory beliefs that will make co-operation very difficult. The Wildlings won't kneel. Not to anyone. 

Both sides were expecting a battle with each-other. Their mutual hatred of one another goes down to the bone. It took the efforts of Jon and pressure from Stannis (an outsider who only wanted men to bulk his numbers) in order to achieve the truce they currently have. And that is thin ice indeed. 

 

Which is melodramatic. People tend to be fairly pragmatic when it comes to these things more often than not; no matter how high the butchers bill. We were allied with the Germans within a few years of WW2 and that was after allying with its other decades long mortal enemy in the Soviet Union. China being an ally of the Soviets and then going with the US. You can go back to Athens and Sparta for examples of this. You see this in the novels with House tyrell and the Freys.

Its makes for conflict and drama but it’s not backed up by historical precedent. Rulers tend to do what they think will win and these sides change all the time. The English allied with France more than a few times despite millennia of war. It’s only in stories that have “there is only war” mentality.

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The wildlings (1) have no reason to think they will be believed, and (2) tend to avoid the NW in any event.  I do recall that Jeor mentioned stories of monsters to Tyrion, so obviously some stories got out.  But Mance evidently decided it was better to mass his population and force his way across the wall by surprise than to issue a warning, acting on which would make it more difficult for the wildings to get across.

 

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12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Which is melodramatic. People tend to be fairly pragmatic when it comes to these things more often than not; no matter how high the butchers bill. We were allied with the Germans within a few years of WW2 and that was after allying with its other decades long mortal enemy in the Soviet Union. China being an ally of the Soviets and then going with the US. You can go back to Athens and Sparta for examples of this. You see this in the novels with House tyrell and the Freys.

Its makes for conflict and drama but it’s not backed up by historical precedent. Rulers tend to do what they think will win and these sides change all the time. The English allied with France more than a few times despite millennia of war. It’s only in stories that have “there is only war” mentality.


I'm sorry. Are you comparing the Wildlings with China or 20th century Germay? This is a mistake. They have no formal communication nor are they recognised as anything other than a band of savages. The grand unification performed by Mance is the closest they've become to acting as a single nation with a single voice. They don't appear to fully agree with one another. The one thing they agree on is Mance is King. And that alone appears to be a super human feat.

When the two sides do meet. There is talk. We know Jon's plan. But communication between the two sides does take place. It's interrupted by Stannis. 

Point being, the Wildlings, Free-folk what have you, they're not one people. And the NW define their very existence by fighting the Wildlings. Even now, with both sides certain of their mutual enemy, they don't fully get along. These are simple people with simple values. They're not well versed in diplomacy. 

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19 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:


I'm sorry. Are you comparing the Wildlings with China or 20th century Germay? This is a mistake. They have no formal communication nor are they recognised as anything other than a band of savages. The grand unification performed by Mance is the closest they've become to acting as a single nation with a single voice. They don't appear to fully agree with one another. The one thing they agree on is Mance is King. And that alone appears to be a super human feat.

When the two sides do meet. There is talk. We know Jon's plan. But communication between the two sides does take place. It's interrupted by Stannis. 

Point being, the Wildlings, Free-folk what have you, they're not one people. And the NW define their very existence by fighting the Wildlings. Even now, with both sides certain of their mutual enemy, they don't fully get along. These are simple people with simple values. They're not well versed in diplomacy. 

 

The various Gallic and Germanic tribes against the Romans. These barbarians would form coalitions, make alliances, act as mercenaries and be diplomatic. The Mongols caught on pretty quick too. These were also simple people but they were either fast learners or they were already doing it in their own way. People are people.

You’re saying the wildlings are too primitive to comprehend diplomacy when it seems to be a universal thing. People make deals. How is Mance treating with all these tribes, some of which are not even human, different than the NW?

It’s very convenient timing that they don’t think to do this until Stannis rocks up.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

The various Gallic and Germanic tribes against the Romans. These barbarians would form coalitions, make alliances, act as mercenaries and be diplomatic. The Mongols caught on pretty quick too. These were also simple people but they were either fast learners or they were already doing it in their own way. People are people.

You’re saying the wildlings are too primitive to comprehend diplomacy when it seems to be a universal thing. People make deals. How is Mance treating with all these tribes, some of which are not even human, different than the NW?

It’s very convenient timing that they don’t think to do this until Stannis rocks up.

 

 

They were doing this before Stannis 'rocks up'. Only, it was literally 'moments' before. 

In your above example, the 'tribes' communicate and work together to oppose the Romans. Well, this is what the Free-Folk did. Or, it's what Mance did. And he literally had to go from tribe to tribe and best them just to get them to follow him. 
And so, they unified against the NW, a common enemy. They're not forming an alliance to oppose the WW. Why would they? There's no indication that anyone on Planetos has a means to fight them. Especially not the NW. Mance has their number. He knows the Watch is weak. He tells Jon what he wants. 'To hide behind your Wall". It just so happens they are more afraid of the Others than they are the Watch. And rightly so.
 
So, in who's interest would the alliance be? The FF aren't geared for war. They can't offer the NW anything other than them not being added to the army of un-dead. Their not wanted. Not their customs, nor their hungry mouths. In winter, no less. Why would the watch believe them? And how would a LC convince any northern leader to support their ambitions of allowing the very people to their suppose to stop, through the Wall? 
 
Just to be clear, we're talking about a climate where any Wildling approaching the Wall would of earned an arrow in the eye. You'd hear two blasts of a war horn before dropping dead. 

I don't think the Free-Folk are necessarily too primitive. Like the watch, they're stuck in their ways. They don't behave as a singular group and agreeing a deal with one may mean nothing to another. 

What Jon achieves in his short tenure is a bit of a miracle. All things considered.

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I would imagine that for the right price there are thousands of Free Folk that would kneel, unfortunately the only voice they have is that of Mance Rayder, a man who earned the Kingship of a notoriously Kingless folk, for Mance to pass the Wall with his folk he would need to kneel and accept the customs of Westeros and likely forfeit his life to the Watch, no Southron King could accept any less and still possibly would not accept it. If Mance did that and somehow kept his life he would lose the respect of large quantities of the Wildlings, his people would dissolve and he would no longer be a King, when his number should have been up he was happy to allow another to die in his place and only under that mans guise only then would he then bend the knee. Do not underestimate Mance Rayders pride in the unfolding events, once the crown hit his brow he was no different from any of the other 5 Kings south of the Wall

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