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Chris Mormont

Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

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If a man's primary goal as a Lord is to protect his House and ensure his family stays in power, then Walder has outsmarted all the other houses by having 22 sons. 

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Like Aegon the Unworthy then. (Don't say they were bastards, he legitimised as many as he wanted due to being king so he could have done it with more if he felt it a clever move)

 

Also, the number of sons won't matter when they've all been hanged. Having a big bunch of offspring is super awesome only if you aren't the poster-family for backstabbing dip wads.

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1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said:

If a man's primary goal as a Lord is to protect his House and ensure his family stays in power, then Walder has outsmarted all the other houses by having 22 sons. 

Nah.

His House is dead. He broke one of the most sacred rights in the realm. His family are seen as cursed and his name is frequently used as an insult. The only reason that any of them are still alive so far is because they were protected by the Lannisters, whose hold on the realm is quickly slipping away. If *anyone* else takes control of the Iron Throne and releases the hostages then the Twins will be under siege almost immediately. In fact, Cersei could cause that to happen on a whim.

"The Lord of the Crossing" is going to spoken of in the same tones as the Rat Cook. The God's blessed him with countless heirs and spat on them so now he's going to lose them all.

 

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2 hours ago, Sigella said:

Also, the number of sons won't matter when they've all been hanged. Having a big bunch of offspring is super awesome only if you aren't the poster-family for backstabbing dip wads.

To be fair, he never expected that Tywin would be murdered by his own son

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1 minute ago, The Hoare said:

To be fair, he never expected that Tywin would be murdered by his own son

Which doesn't speak for Walders cleverness either.

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4 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

If a man's primary goal as a Lord is to protect his House and ensure his family stays in power, then Walder has outsmarted all the other houses by having 22 sons. 

 

Landless Sons create trouble. 

It was an act of madness that he murdered Rob Stark and his nobles. In the Hundred Years War it was standard practice to ransom noble prisoners; even the King of France became a hostage for a time. It might stun modern sensibilities but they actually did keep their word on this sort of thing. It’s very much a modern idea that you need to completely obliterate your enemy and wipe them out.

He also martyred the Starks when Rob was great handidly destroying the reputation of the Starks by losing Winterfell, killing the Karstarks, breaking his vows to his Frey wife and his defeat already inevitable at the hands of Tywin. An Agincourt could not have saved the Northern army against the Tyrell, Lannister swarm.

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15 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

If a man's primary goal as a Lord is to protect his House and ensure his family stays in power, then Walder has outsmarted all the other houses by having 22 sons. 

He's a smart, practical man.  I like him.  I hope his house outlive their enemies.  

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12 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Landless Sons create trouble. 

It was an act of madness that he murdered Rob Stark and his nobles. In the Hundred Years War it was standard practice to ransom noble prisoners; even the King of France became a hostage for a time. It might stun modern sensibilities but they actually did keep their word on this sort of thing. It’s very much a modern idea that you need to completely obliterate your enemy and wipe them out.

He also martyred the Starks when Rob was great handidly destroying the reputation of the Starks by losing Winterfell, killing the Karstarks, breaking his vows to his Frey wife and his defeat already inevitable at the hands of Tywin. An Agincourt could not have saved the Northern army against the Tyrell, Lannister swarm.

I'm happy to be proved wrong but I'm not sure it was entirely Walder's choice. It might have been his idea originally but actually going through with it......?

When talking to Tyrion, Tywin justifies the murder of Rhaegar's children by arguing that he HAD to do something extreme to prove his loyalty to Robert, and ensure that there was no way that House Lannister could ever go back to House Targaryen. I think this was a similar thing. Would Tywin really ask any less of others? Especially someone with as questionable loyalty as Walder Frey?

Walder had backed the wrong side, Robb had not only betrayed him but lost the war as well. He was going home and leaving the Riverlands to face the combined might of the Reach and the Westerlands on their own. Walder was very  much a coward and I don't think it would've taken much for Tywin (and Roose) to lean on him. After all, his options were to be break an old superstition and maybe be cursed or to definitely die?  

I'd also note that during his toast, Roose specifically mentions Ramsay holding the Walder's at the Dreadfort, which could be taken as a threat. Not to mention that we know that Tywin took steps to ensure that Roose had no option but to go through with it as well: Releasing Robett Glover meant that Roose's treason would be exposed if Robb made it back North.

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Out of Walder's 22 sons 5 already died because of the Red Wedding - one killed on the wedding, three were baked into pie (by the father of a wedding guest, that was killed by Freys), one got killed by LSH. And sooner or later the remaining 17 will also suffer repercussions for Walder's actions. And it wasn't even Walder's own plan. That's not smart.

The smartest man in Westeros is Littlefinger, after him Varys, Bloodraven, Tyrion, Euron, Tywin, many others, and only after all of them, near the end, is Walder. Littlefinger used Walder and Freys as a scapegoats, that will be punished, for what they did, while they were manipulated thru Tywin by Littlefinger, who was the real mastermind behind the Red Wedding.

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4 hours ago, Gingin said:

Wasn’t Tyrion supposed to be the smartest man in Westeros?

I doubt that honour rests with anyone we met, probably some maester in old town. 

He might be the most politically savvy, and even that is quite doubtful (LF is far more savvy than him)

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6 hours ago, Gingin said:

Wasn’t Tyrion supposed to be the smartest man in Westeros?

Tyrion?  No.  The smartest man is Marwyn.

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21 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Nah.

His House is dead.

In the show it may be dead, still unclear, but not in the books.

21 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

 

The only reason that any of them are still alive so far is because they were protected by the Lannisters, whose hold on the realm is quickly slipping away. If *anyone* else takes control of the Iron Throne and releases the hostages then the Twins will be under siege almost immediately.

Yeah, that is a huge exaggeration.

Certainly disliked, but there is no danger of them being put under siege. They broke a custom and will likely have some members punished, but the idea of the realm all going to war over it is an over the top wet dream by some Stark fans.

6 hours ago, Gingin said:

Wasn’t Tyrion supposed to be the smartest man in Westeros?

In his own mind he may be.

Tyrion wants Casterly Rock yet continues to piss off his father with his very public whoring and drinking, continues to piss off his sister, the Queen, and continues to piss off his nephew, the heir/King of the throne.

There are three people Tyrion needs to impress to get the Rock, he sours his relations with all three. Littlefinger likely dislikes all three as well, but he knows to not let them know that.

 

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Out of Walder's 22 sons 5 already died because of the Red Wedding - one killed on the wedding, three were baked into pie (by the father of a wedding guest, that was killed by Freys), one got killed by LSH. And sooner or later the remaining 17 will also suffer repercussions for Walder's actions. And it wasn't even Walder's own plan. That's not smart.

The smartest man in Westeros is Littlefinger, after him Varys, Bloodraven, Tyrion, Euron, Tywin, many others, and only after all of them, near the end, is Walder. Littlefinger used Walder and Freys as a scapegoats, that will be punished, for what they did, while they were manipulated thru Tywin by Littlefinger, who was the real mastermind behind the Red Wedding.

Lets see Ryman by BwB, Marrett by BwB,, Peter Pymple by BwB Tytos by Sandor Clegane + two others, Symond, Jared, Rhaeger by Manderley, Aegon by Catelyn, Little Walder by unknown, Aenys by Crowsfoot Umber's boys Hosteen who maybe alive or dead depending which version of either ADWD or ACOK GRRM you read, andCleos by the Brave Companions anymore?

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1 hour ago, Gerg Sknab said:

Lets see Ryman by BwB, Marrett by BwB,, Peter Pymple by BwB Tytos by Sandor Clegane + two others, Symond, Jared, Rhaeger by Manderley, Aegon by Catelyn, Little Walder by unknown, Aenys by Crowsfoot Umber's boys Hosteen who maybe alive or dead depending which version of either ADWD or ACOK GRRM you read, andCleos by the Brave Companions anymore?

Ryman is not Walder's son, his father is Walder's older son, Stevron, so Ryman is a grandson. Petyr Pimple is Ryman's son, so he is Walder's great-grandson. Jinglebells, Aegon killed by Cat, is also Stevron's son/Walder's grandson. Cleos (son of Emmon - Walder's second son), Aenys (Walder's 3rd son, killed at Winterfell. Hosteen, Walder's 6th son, was with Aenys, and was taken prisoner by Mors Umber), Rhaegar (son of Aenys - Walder's third son, was baked into pie), Jared Frey (Walder's 4th son, Pie), Tytos (Jared's son), Symond (Walder's 7th son, Pie), Merrett (Walder's 9th son, killed by BWB), Little Walder (son of Merrett), Benfrey (Walder's 16th son, killed at RW).

5 sons dead, 17 left.

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On 6/18/2019 at 2:09 PM, Chris Mormont said:

If a man's primary goal as a Lord is to protect his House and ensure his family stays in power, then Walder has outsmarted all the other houses by having 22 sons. 

 He is not protecting his house the red wedding made all of his house hated. By all of Westeros he literally put a bull’s-eye on their heads the brotherhood without banners is hell-bent on killing any Fraley they can find . That is not smart at all. He is just greedy and vain. He isn’t stupid but this move is. He figured he would be dead before his family had to pay the tab for their sins.

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