Tad Williams - The Witchwood Crown / Empire of Grass spoiler thread

[kuenjato]

So I finished my re-read of TWC and am now around 250 pages into EoG. As the other thread has hit 21 pages, I figured a spoiler thread to discuss the pros and cons of the trilogy was in order.

I'm going to wait on commenting on the stuff in EoG, except to say this: the book is a moderate improvement on TWC, in that it retains (mostly) the slightly-faster pacing of TWC's last third. If this seems muted praise, it is. There was a pretty good 400 page novel in TWC's nearly 700 pages, and some of the bloat is pretty apparent in EoG's first third, making me think this will be about the same.

[kuenjato]

Just finished it. Kinda tired, so I'll boil this down to some bullet points.

Things I liked:

• Expands upon the underlying lore from the first book, and that lore is threaded throughout the novel rather than kept at the back end. Also of interest are the discrepancies in the myths regarding Unbeing, with the creatures under Nakkiga claiming the 'Vao' summoned it (implied, the Tunukeda'ya), while Tanahaya tells Morgan that the Norns were responsible. Not enough info to parse this, yet, and I think the answer lies somewhere in between.
• Miri was enjoyable to read, once she was separated from Simon.
• Like in TWC, I enjoyed reading about the Norns the most. As a kid, I always wondered what Stormspike was like, and the various weird/creepy environs of Nakkiga were well written.
• Has better pacing than TWC, though it shares the same problem of that novel (see below...)
• There are great little moments scattered throughout. Unfortunately...

What I didn't care for:

• Just like TWC, this one is overwritten and under-edited. I felt the drag of it mostly in the beginning and around the 50-60% mark. This felt like a good 400 page novel woven into 600 pages.  Of course, this disease afflicts so much epic fantasy -- making doorstoppers simply to make doorstoppers, without much consideration to what would make the books stronger, tighter, more effective -- that it's almost expected. See: Erikson, Sanderson, most Big Name fantasy authors, really.
• Repetition - expository excess. In TWC, there was a scene about halfway through the novel where Simon and Miri and Eolair and Tiamak discuss the plot of the novel for around 3 pages before reaching a decision of action that moves the narrative forward slightly. It was a "As you know..." scene, and this sort of bloat is interwoven throughout both books -- meandering conversations, repetition of information already presented, sometimes excessive descriptions, etc. 
• Repetition - we're hitting all the locales and events of the first trilogy, to the point that it sometimes feels like a retread - Urmshiem, Naglimund, Dai'a Chikiza, etc. etc. If not for the lore and the underlying threat of Utuk'ku's plan, a lot of this would feel like an unnecessary exercise, sort of like Donaldson's third attempt at Covenant.
• Repetition - Most of the characters have the same "voice" when reflecting or conversing. Chalk it up to authorial style, but it creates this sheen of repetition where you already know what Tad will write paragraphs or even pages before it arrives.
• I didn't care for the fact that Joshu is still MIA. Feels like a last-minute appearance in book three is going to happen.
• I didn't care for how TW railroaded the events after Unvar became the Shan, reminded me of the worst parts of Otherland.
• TW has this fondness for leaving a chapter at a cliffhanger and then shoving 50 or more pages in between, as if this generates tension rather than annoyance. Nothing like concluding an epic sequence with a cliffhanger, only to find a whole chapter of Simon or Morgan or (shudder) both looming ahead! While nothing here was to the excess of Mountain of Black Glass, where Orlando + co were abandoned in dire straights for like a hundred pages, it's still not very well done or necessary, IMO.

 

Someone asked how this compares to The Dragonbone Chair / first series to a long-term reader in the last thread. When I muster the energy, I'll present a critique as to why the first trilogy remains superior to the second.

Edited June 20, 2019 by kuenjato

[SeanF]

I went straight into the Second trilogy after the first.  TWC shared a lot of the same pacing issues as the Draogonbone Chair, but I thought EOG really picked up.  I share some of your views of its strengths and weaknesses, but I liked it a lot.

[kuenjato]

I didn't hate it or really dislike it, I just thought the writing was weaker than the original trilogy.

In the last thread, someone asked to compare this series to MS&T. The biggest contrast I can give is that, in the late 80's, reading The Dragonbone Chair imparted a sense of mystery and depth, probably much more depth than the text itself contained. With The Witchwood Crown, we already know these characters and this land and there's not a whole lot which is new, outside the Norn mountain-city. The obvious retreading of old ground (Urmshiem, Naglimund, Hjelden's tower, etc. etc) really contribute to this uneasy feeling that, while there is a story here that could be told and told really well (the Sithi/Norn & Unbeing backstory), a lot of this feels middling or unnecessary.

And though there was very little action in The Dragonbone Chair, that novel contains an impressive atmosphere of discovery and gradual revelation, allowing the descriptions and overall prose to come across as necessary in constructing the novel's themes and development, rather than--in TWC and EoG--feeling like constant bloated diversions perpetually staving us off to the next artificial climax or authorial indulgence (lost in the woods again, hey ho!).

Edited June 24, 2019 by kuenjato

[Argonath Diver]

I was the person that asked for that comparison, so thank you for that. I absolutely see where you're coming from regarding the original trilogy, and couldn't have said it better myself regarding the page-turning generated by discovery and exploration of the travelogue portions, etc. I've tempered my expectations of this one - heck, it might wait til the final novel is near release and I churn through all three.

[Ded As Ned]

I finished EoG a few days back, so I finally came here to the spoiler thread, only to find there were no spoilers!

Despite the misleading thread title, I came to discuss the story...  I really enjoyed the book... although the ending it felt kind of like an odd stopping point.  The events in Da'ai Chikiza are unresolved and unless I missed it, we still don't know what is going on there (nevertheless why).  Lots of characters converging there only to end the book just before whatever big event is going to happen with the Tinuke'daya (I'm assuming related to the events in Naglimund).   Miri's cliffhanger (of course she's still alive)... 

I'm still most disappointed in Pasavellas... I really liked him before it turned out to just be the traitorous servant unraveling the kingdom trope...  maybe I'll be surprised in the end, but I felt something.... more.... could have been done with that plot line.

Who is the red thing underneath the Hayholt?  Pyrate's ghost?  Cadrach?  I keep trying to remember from tGAT, the blind guy who heard the voices down there that Rachel would feed... could it be him as I don't remember what happened to him?

Maybe I'm in the wrong forum for this

Edited June 27, 2019 by Ded As Ned

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

24 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said:

I finished EoG a few days back, so I finally came here to the spoiler thread, only to find there were no spoilers!

Despite the misleading thread title, I came to discuss the story...  I really enjoyed the book... although the ending it felt kind of like an odd stopping point.  The events in Da'ai Chikiza are unresolved and unless I missed it, we still don't know what is going on there (nevertheless why).  Lots of characters converging there only to end the book just before whatever big event is going to happen with the Tinuke'daya (I'm assuming related to the events in Naglimund).   Miri's cliffhanger (of course she's still alive)... 

I'm still most disappointed in Pasavellas... I really liked him before it turned out to just be the traitorous servant unraveling the kingdom trope...  maybe I'll be surprised in the end, but I felt something.... more.... could have been done with that plot line.

Who is the red thing underneath the Hayholt?  Pyrate's ghost?  Cadrach?  I keep trying to remember from tGAT, the blind guy who heard the voices down there that Rachel would feed... could it be him as I don't remember what happened to him?

Maybe I'm in the wrong forum for this

I enjoyed it too.  I’m not convinced Miriamele’s fate isn’t sealed.  I desperately want to know why the Tinuke’daya are gathering in Aeoldheorte.  I have to wonder if they are preparing for another voyage.

Anyone else think the mention of “great years” as reflecting a year in “The Garden” is a clear indication that “the Garden” is another planet, not another destroyed continent?

[Ded As Ned]

18 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I enjoyed it too.  I’m not convinced Miriamele’s fate isn’t sealed.  I desperately want to know why the Tinuke’daya are gathering in Aeoldheorte.  I have to wonder if they are preparing for another voyage.

Anyone else think the mention of “great years” as reflecting a year in “The Garden” is a clear indication that “the Garden” is another planet, not another destroyed continent?

I am convinced she's not dead (yet anyway).  Remember Joshua in the original trilogy when everyone thought he was dead for so long?  I just can't see her going out like that.  She gave the ring to the girl so she would be believed when she delivered Miri's message, then she ended up dead and everyone thinks it's Miri when Miri's really still hiking through the bush somewhere.  Classic Tad.  

Anyway, yes I have always held that the Garden was on a different planet, or perhaps in a different dimension or plane of existence, what have you... and Ruyan teleported them to Osten Ard with his magicks.  Doesn't explain how the dragons came along for the ride, however.  That has always been the burr in my thinking, because the dragons also were created before unbeing took the Garden.  I have no explanation for how they also ended up in Osten Ard. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Ded As Ned

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said:

I am convinced she's not dead (yet anyway).  Remember Joshua in the original trilogy when everyone thought he was dead for so long?  I just can't see her going out like that.  She gave the ring to the girl so she would be believed when she delivered Miri's message, then she ended up dead and everyone thinks it's Miri when Miri's really still hiking through the bush somewhere.  Classic Tad.  

Anyway, yes I have always held that the Garden was on a different planet, or perhaps in a different dimension or plane of existence, what have you... and Ruyan teleported them to Osten Ard with his magicks.  Doesn't explain how the dragons came along for the ride, however.  That has always been the burr in my thinking, because the dragons also were created before unbeing took the Garden.  I have no explanation for how they also ended up in Osten Ard. 

What about Josua?  Is he still lurking somewhere or is he completely out of the picture.  Having this search for him produce nothing but wasted effort seems like a poor use of narrative.  Either he’s around somewhere, or, his death has some major impact on the story that we don’t know about yet.

[Ded As Ned]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What about Josua?  Is he still lurking somewhere or is he completely out of the picture.  Having this search for him produce nothing but wasted effort seems like a poor use of narrative.  Either he’s around somewhere, or, his death has some major impact on the story that we don’t know about yet.

Good question, and I'm with you on the wasted pages if nothing comes of it, and agree on the bolded above.  Sometimes I wonder if he lost his memory (like Camaris in the originals) and is out there scrubbing floors babbling nonsense.  Or got sucked into the dream world or wherever the souls of those like Ineluki et al went to... 

Back to Da'ai Chikiza... so coverged there we have:  The Pure, Tanahaya (presumed dead), Morgan, Nezeru, Norns, the 2 Trolls, Tinuke'daya and all their various forms, Adelin and his group.  Lots of witnesses to whatever is about to happen.  Wasn't there mention that one of the master witnesses used to be there?  Also in the vicinity we have the Ogre of Misty Valley who has to show up again later... Chekhov's Gun and all.  I really thought the book was going to end with that event... and instead seems it will be the beginning of the next book.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Ded As Ned said:

I finished EoG a few days back, so I finally came here to the spoiler thread, only to find there were no spoilers!

Despite the misleading thread title, I came to discuss the story...  I really enjoyed the book... although the ending it felt kind of like an odd stopping point.  The events in Da'ai Chikiza are unresolved and unless I missed it, we still don't know what is going on there (nevertheless why).  Lots of characters converging there only to end the book just before whatever big event is going to happen with the Tinuke'daya (I'm assuming related to the events in Naglimund).   Miri's cliffhanger (of course she's still alive)... 

I'm still most disappointed in Pasavellas... I really liked him before it turned out to just be the traitorous servant unraveling the kingdom trope...  maybe I'll be surprised in the end, but I felt something.... more.... could have been done with that plot line.

Who is the red thing underneath the Hayholt?  Pyrate's ghost?  Cadrach?  I keep trying to remember from tGAT, the blind guy who heard the voices down there that Rachel would feed... could it be him as I don't remember what happened to him?

Maybe I'm in the wrong forum for this

I think it's Pryrates in some form.

[Ded As Ned]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think it's Pryrates in some form.

That seems the most obvious choice... also considering Morgan got a glimpse of him/it in his little climbing escapade in tWC.  I guess of all the options, I like that one the least.  I want Pyrates to be dead.  Ded dead.  Dead as Ned dead. 

[kuenjato]

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I enjoyed it too.  I’m not convinced Miriamele’s fate isn’t sealed.  I desperately want to know why the Tinuke’daya are gathering in Aeoldheorte.  I have to wonder if they are preparing for another voyage.

Anyone else think the mention of “great years” as reflecting a year in “The Garden” is a clear indication that “the Garden” is another planet, not another destroyed continent?

There were some descriptions in either TWC or EoG (they kind of blend together for me at this point) that heavily indicate the Sithi/Norns came from another planet. 

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Ded As Ned said:

I'm still most disappointed in Pasavellas... I really liked him before it turned out to just be the traitorous servant unraveling the kingdom trope...  maybe I'll be surprised in the end, but I felt something.... more.... could have been done with that plot line.

Yeah, he could have been a guy with his own agenda - I thought he might turn out to be a guy whose past (father and uncle died in the Storm King's War) influenced his present, i.e. he came to the conclusion that peace with the Sithi and Norns were impossible/they could not be trusted, so they had to go for good. Instead, he is just some ambitious psychopath who became another pawn of the Norns.

12 hours ago, Ded As Ned said:

Who is the red thing underneath the Hayholt?  Pyrate's ghost?  Cadrach?  I keep trying to remember from tGAT, the blind guy who heard the voices down there that Rachel would feed... could it be him as I don't remember what happened to him?

Pretty sure it is Pryrates. After all, Morgan saw Pryrates, and we later learned that the red thing likes to climb up in Hjeldin's Tower - Cadrach or any other creature would have little motivation to do so. Anything else makes little sense. Cadrach might be Jarnulf's 'Father'. Originally thought Camaris could have been that guy, but since Jarnulf apparently seems to believe the guy could still be alive this would be stretching things too far. Camaris was a rather pious fellow whereas Cadrach is less likely to instill that kind of devotion in a man. But then, perhaps the events at Green Angel Tower fundamentally changed him.

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I enjoyed it too.  I’m not convinced Miriamele’s fate isn’t sealed.  

Miri isn't dead. If she was, we would have gotten a different cliffhanger/end for her. Not to mention that we clearly have a plot where Simon is supposed to wrongly believe she is dead.

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I desperately want to know why the Tinuke’daya are gathering in Aeoldheorte.  I have to wonder if they are preparing for another voyage.

They are called by Ommu, Utuk'ku and Jijibo and whoever else is part of 'the grand plan'. Utuk'ku wants to unleash Unbeing on Osten Ard so she can die in peace, knowing that the entire world will die with her/follow her. For that she needs the Tinukeda'ya because they (apparently) originally created/summoned Unbeing back in the Garden to fight the Gardenborn (that's at least the version of the story told in Nakkiga - could be wrong or partially wrong). But they are still necessary for the plan. They don't seem to have an agenda of their own at this point.

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Anyone else think the mention of “great years” as reflecting a year in “The Garden” is a clear indication that “the Garden” is another planet, not another destroyed continent?

The alien hypothesis got much more steam in EoG - we have the hints that those ships were really huge (the spar Miri sees in Nabban), there are no Gardenborn cities/settlements in the east of Osten Ard beyond the map (they cannot have arrived at the western shore if men came from there), and, most importantly, the fact that the Unbeing in the Garden would have long ago destroyed/followed them to Osten Ard if it were running rampant on another continent.

Also, of course, Utuk'ku would not need to summon Unbeing to Osten Ard (or try to free the Unbeing that may be trapped with the witchwood seeds beneath the Hayholt) if it was still running rampant somewhere in the world. She could just send some of her guys with a couple of ships back to 'the Garden' and fetch some Unbeing. But that seems to be clearly not an option.

11 hours ago, Ded As Ned said:

Anyway, yes I have always held that the Garden was on a different planet, or perhaps in a different dimension or plane of existence, what have you... and Ruyan teleported them to Osten Ard with his magicks.  Doesn't explain how the dragons came along for the ride, however.  That has always been the burr in my thinking, because the dragons also were created before unbeing took the Garden.  I have no explanation for how they also ended up in Osten Ard. 

The dragons are Tinukeda'ya, too. They were apparently part of their attempts to destroy the Gardenborn back in the Garden. As such, there could have been some dragons among them - because the Tinukeda'ya can change their forms. Ruyan's armor was similar to a space suit or some technological thing - the fact that Amerasu was apparently born during the voyage from the Garden to Osten Ard (she is 'the Ship-born') strongly imply that this was no teleportation thingy - but rather a journey that took decades or even centuries. The Gardenborn live rather long, so that shouldn't have been that much of an issue.

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What about Josua?  Is he still lurking somewhere or is he completely out of the picture.  Having this search for him produce nothing but wasted effort seems like a poor use of narrative.  Either he’s around somewhere, or, his death has some major impact on the story that we don’t know about yet.

Chances are pretty good that he is dead. I think he might have been the guy Pasevalles claims to have killed before he went to Erchester. We don't know who that guy is but time fits. It would have happened around the time Josua decided to visit his grandnephew at the Hayholt. Why he would have done it I don't understand at this point (spite, perhaps) since he apparently only allied himself with Akhenabi and the Pryrates thing after John Josua's death.

[kuenjato]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Chances are pretty good that he is dead. I think he might have been the guy Pasevalles claims to have killed before he went to Erchester. We don't know who that guy is but time fits. It would have happened around the time Josua decided to visit his grandnephew at the Hayholt. Why he would have done it I don't understand at this point (spite, perhaps) since he apparently only allied himself with Akhenabi and the Pryrates thing after John Josua's death.

That's a good catch, I didn't associate the two but it wouldn't surprise me if that becomes the case, tragic as it is.

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I enjoyed it too.  I’m not cionvinced Miriamele’s fate isn’t sealed.  I desperately want to know why the Tinuke’daya are gathering in Aeoldheorte.  I have to wonder if they are preparing for another voyage.

Anyone else think the mention of “great years” as reflecting a year in “The Garden” is a clear indication that “the Garden” is another planet, not another destroyed continent?

I'm sure Miriamele's story is not over (although, that doesn't necessarily mean she survives the series)

[SeanF]

I wonder if any of the Norns know what Uttuku's real plan is.  I can't imagine that Akenhabi or Pratiki have any desire to follow their mistress into the grave, let alone those lower down the food chain.

The whole Nornish storyline is such a joy to read.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I wonder if any of the Norns know what Uttuku's real plan is.  I can't imagine that Akenhabi or Pratiki have any desire to follow their mistress into the grave, let alone those lower down the food chain.

The whole Nornish storyline is such a joy to read.

The Norns pretty much have no idea. I mean, that's the entire theme of their story. Viyeki and Yaarike and Suno'ku before them (Yaarike likely gave the document from Utuk'ku's archives to Ayaminu who, in turn, would have given it to Tanahaya's master). There are old connections between some Norns and some Sithi, and those people regret the falling out they had and want to close the rift, etc.

Akhenabi might suspect something, or he might be on board with it. He is one of the very old guys, and a rather close confident of his immortal queen. I'm inclined to believe he may have been played up as this 'evil court sorcerer' by Utuk'ku to take the fall if things get really dire - if crucial Norns get second thoughts about the grand plan she might blame him for everything to distract the opposition.

But Pratiki, the other members of Utuk'ku's clan (aside from Jijibo), the members of Ekimeniso's clan (Suno'ku was one of his descendants) have no idea.

The good guys can only win if the Norns realize that their immortal queen and her political system and religious system completely brainwashed them into helping her destroy the entire world. At this point they are still very far away from realizing this. But one assumes that Nezeru, Viyeki, and Pratiki are supposed to become important in this regard.

I mean, we see how important symbols are in Utuk'ku's political game - how she uses the memory of her son and her state bedchamber back in TWC to awe her people into submission when she actually sleeps in a coffin (which we actually learned first in the original trilogy). Or take the monstrous creature she used as a mount when she left Nakkiga - just to awe the rabble. Once they were away from the mountain they let it die and she continued the journey in a more practical manner.

7 hours ago, kuenjato said:

That's a good catch, I didn't associate the two but it wouldn't surprise me if that becomes the case, tragic as it is.

Pasevalles certainly could be wrong about the successful kill, so Josua could come back that way. But chances are pretty high that he was the guy Pasevalles attacked and thinks he killed.

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Norns pretty much have no idea. I mean, that's the entire theme of their story. Viyeki and Yaarike and Suno'ku before them (Yaarike likely gave the document from Utuk'ku's archives to Ayaminu who, in turn, would have given it to Tanahaya's master). There are old connections between some Norns and some Sithi, and those people regret the falling out they had and want to close the rift, etc.

Akhenabi might suspect something, or he might be on board with it. He is one of the very old guys, and a rather close confident of his immortal queen. I'm inclined to believe he may have been played up as this 'evil court sorcerer' by Utuk'ku to take the fall if things get really dire - if crucial Norns get second thoughts about the grand plan she might blame him for everything to distract the opposition.

But Pratiki, the other members of Utuk'ku's clan (aside from Jijibo), the members of Ekimeniso's clan (Suno'ku was one of his descendants) have no idea.

The good guys can only win if the Norns realize that their immortal queen and her political system and religious system completely brainwashed them into helping her destroy the entire world. At this point they are still very far away from realizing this. But one assumes that Nezeru, Viyeki, and Pratiki are supposed to become important in this regard.

I mean, we see how important symbols are in Utuk'ku's political game - how she uses the memory of her son and her state bedchamber back in TWC to awe her people into submission when she actually sleeps in a coffin (which we actually learned first in the original trilogy). Or take the monstrous creature she used as a mount when she left Nakkiga - just to awe the rabble. Once they were away from the mountain they let it die and she continued the journey in a more practical manner.

Pasevalles certainly could be wrong about the successful kill, so Josua could come back that way. But chances are pretty high that he was the guy Pasevalles attacked and thinks he killed.

Is it ever stated why Yaarike died?  Old age, or did he fall victim to a court intrigue?

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Is it ever stated why Yaarike died?  Old age, or did he fall victim to a court intrigue?

Some accident. Possibly arranged by Utuk'ku's people, possibly a real accident.

There was speculation that he may have faked his death and that Tzoja would meet him down in the house - but that didn't happen, so now we have to assume he is really dead.

I also thought - and sort of still think - that they may have faked Suno'ku's death. I half expected her to be there is one of those secret Norn strongholds or her to show up alongside Ayaminu, but that didn't happen either. Could still happen, though, since chances are reasonably high that somebody really important has to show up and present a case that the queen is mad and wants to kill them all. And Pratiki is right now with Utuk'ku and at Naglimund and from there they are likely going to attack and take the Hayholt to gain access to those witchwood seeds and the Unbeing trapped with them.

So, perhaps we'll see Suno'ku return to Nakkiga in Utuk'ku's absence. Possibly with Yaarike if he were still alive.

Those Norns having second thoughts, etc. is all very subtle. It goes through their literary preferences, of them reading heretical poets, etc. On that level quite a few crucial people entertain doubts. But essentially no one doubts the queen is evil. They just doubt whether she is on the right path, whether the means to their end are correct. But nobody ever has second thoughts about how their system is set up or that the queen might not give a damn about her subjects or their lives.

Utuk'ku is very much above the whole court intrigue thing, and only she knows all pieces of the puzzle whereas her pawns at best thing that some guy higher up in the chain of command is abusing the authority of the queen and she might not know about that, but not that she is in control of everything and she and her plans are utterly corrupt. It should be very hard to convince anyone of that fact, especially such people who don't already have suspicions.