Tad Williams - The Witchwood Crown / Empire of Grass spoiler thread

[Ded As Ned]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

My new map of Osten Ard.

100 pages into Empire of Grass so far and it's fine. Could probably do without Morgan getting lost in Aldheorte (I feel that well was truly wrung dry in the first trilogy) but beyond that it's ticking along nicely, and it's good to find out what happened to Josua's kids (finally!).

  

Edited July 25, 2019 by Ded As Ned

[Jiriki]

14 hours ago, Werthead said:

My new map of Osten Ard.

100 pages into Empire of Grass so far and it's fine. Could probably do without Morgan getting lost in Aldheorte (I feel that well was truly wrung dry in the first trilogy) but beyond that it's ticking along nicely, and it's good to find out what happened to Josua's kids (finally!).

It's absolutely beautiful, Werthead. Great work! I believe Ylvs has sent along some comments.

[Werthead]

Empire of Grass

The kingdoms of Osten Ard are in turmoil. A resurgent Norn threat in the north threatens Rimmersgard and northern Erkynland. The tribes of the Thrithings are in turmoil, a conflict that threatens to spill across the borders into Nabban and Erkynland. Hernystir is in danger of falling under the power of a dark cult. Civil war threatens in Nabban. The High King Simon and the High Queen Miriamele both try to tackle these issues, but the number of their reliable allies is falling and their grandson and heir is missing. But the threat is greater and closer than they think, as for the first time in thousands of years, the deathless queen of the Norns prepares to leave her stronghold.

The Witchwood Crown marked the start of The Last King of Osten Ard, a fresh trilogy picking up thirty years after the events of Williams' break-out work, Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. It was a slow-paced novel but one that had to set up an awful lot of plot points, as well as revisiting characters from the first trilogy and introducing new ones. At the end of the book things kicked off, with Prince Morgan fleeing into the Aldheorte Forest, Unver beginning his unification of the Thrithings tribes, Miriamele setting off on a dangerous mission to Nabban and a band of Norns confronting a dragon.

Empire of Grass picks up on these plot points and expands on them, ticking along at a faster pace than the first novel (helped by it being a slightly shorter book), with us rotating between events in Nabban, the Hayholt, Aldheorte, the grasslands, Nakkiga, Naglimund and other locations quite rapidly. The key difference between the two trilogies is that Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was focused very tightly on Simon with occasional cutaways to other characters, but Last King is a broad-spectrum, multi-POV, multi-location, full-on epic fantasy series with a lot more going on in different places. The loss of tight focus may be bemoaned by some, but it does at least present us with a really epic story told on a huge scale.

Empire of Grass is also important in that it identifies the long-missing children of Josua and Vorzheva, whose identities and destinies have driven a lot of discussion by fantasy fans for well over a decade. We learn more about the twins and where their paths have led them, with a real sense of mythic power that both may hold the fate of the world in their hands, despite not being primary POV characters. We also learn more about Vorzheva, but Josua remains missing, with a hunt for him by agents of the crown forming an intriguing subplot through the novel.

As usual, Williams' gifts remain in atmosphere, with his stately worldbuilding and measured prose, and characterisation. I've seen criticism of the first book stemming from Simon's apparent lack of success in being king, but I see this as Williams simply furthering his subversion of epic fantasy tropes that began way back in 1988 with The Dragonbone Chair: it turns out that a kitchen boy with no background in statecraft might not be the best person to make king. It's made clear that the more experienced Miriamele is a far better ruler and the real power on the throne, which helps better explain why things get worse once she leaves for Nabban. The assumption that the guy who saved the world in the first series would automatically be a greater ruler who never did anything wrong is a bit odd, and is Williams' exploration of the question George R.R. Martin asked of Tolkien about Aragorn: yes, he may have been a great warrior, but does that mean has great insights into tax policy and crop rotation techniques?

If Williams does have a slight weak spot it's political intrigue: Nabban sets up the facade of being a hotbed of double-crosses and Xanatos gambits, but the final revelation of what's going on in Nabban is more than a little simplistic and lacking, with the villain explaining why they are doing everything and might as well have twirled a moustache in the process. There's also a decided lack of explanation as for why the powers in Nabban think they can win a multi-pronged conflict against multiple enemies simultaneously, which is what they seem to be setting up at the end of the book.

There's some great battle scenes, as the Norn invasion gets underway in full, and some excellent character beats (particularly among the Norns and half-Norns of Operation Dragon Retrieval, probably the best storyline in the new series). There's also some decided repetition stemming from Williams' decision not to expand the story to new geographical areas. The big battle takes place on the site of an already massive battle from the first trilogy, and seeing Morgan struggle through Aldheorte Forest for dozens of pages on end might have been more compelling if we hadn't seen Simon do exactly this in the first trilogy, even visiting many of the same exact places along the way.

Where Empire of Grass is most successful is furthering the themes that The Witchwood Crown explored so thoroughly: ageing, losing loved ones and the younger generation not listening to its elders and making the exact same mistakes all over again. There's a melancholy strain in this trilogy which recalls Tolkien at his best.

Empire of Grass (****½) is a somewhat tighter and better-paced book than its forebear, developing the first book's stories, characters and themes well, and setting things up splendidly for the final novel in the series, The Navigator's Children, which I would be expecting to be published in 2021. The novel is available in the UK and USA now.

[SeanF]

On 8/2/2019 at 5:55 PM, Werthead said:

Empire of Grass

 

 

A fair review, IMHO.

I think it's clear that Miri is far better qualified than Simon, to rule.   Simon was very foolish to try and turn her into being just Queen Consort, at the start of their reign, and she was right to push back against this.

Edited August 23, 2019 by SeanF

[mix_masta_micah]

Tad recently updated his blog and confirmed that The Navigator's Children will be published in 2021..but a novel like The Heart of What Was Lost, named The Shadow of Things to Come, will be published before the final installment in the trilogy! Thus, we will have 2 books set in Osten Ard out next year! Exciting! Link below. 

https://www.tadwilliams.com/2020/04/newslettersmells-like-quarantine-spirit/

Also, I'm wondering if anyone know more but I know he had mentioned several other Osten Ard novels. I was particularly intrigued by the Ineluki story mentioned in this interview. I can't tell if he is still planning on doing the Ineluki stand alone? Also, based off of the below interview, do you think he changed the name of The Brothers of the Sky to The Shadow of Things to Come? Or are these separate works? Link below (great interview BTW).

https://ostenard.com/2019/07/22/an-interview-with-tad-williams/

[Jussi]

http://www.tadwilliams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=951459#p951459

Quote

Debroah just posted on Twitter that Tad has finished the first draft of the next Osten Ard short prequel THE SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME.

The prequel is scheduled for June 2021 with THE NAVIGATOR´S CHILDREN following in October 2021.

 

http://www.tadwilliams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=951504#p951504

Some book news from Tad´s most recent Facebook reading….

THE SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME is not the Fall of Asu´a as we thought, but rather Hakatri´s battle with the dragon.

It is not yet decided what Tad will write once LAST KING is finished, but he has submitted two proposals to his publishers

1) The Fall of Asu´a //this will be not short, but a longer novel, this is what we thought THE SHADOW book would be

2) The Book of Orlando // Otherland sequel….

he also wants to write other books such as the long-gestating ARJUNA RISING book, he also has ideas for another Osten Ard series.

other news: short fiction The Scissor Hour (a War of the Flowers story) and The Lady in the Woods (Osten Ard) might be released as Amazon singles.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Jussi

[End of Disc One]

The titles for the novellas continue to sound like James Islington's Licanius Trilogy

Tad:

The Heart of What was Lost
The Shadow of Things to Come

Islington:

The Shadow of What was Lost
An Echo of Things to Come
The Light of All that Falls

[mix_masta_micah]

On 5/7/2020 at 8:40 AM, End of Disc One said:

The titles for the novellas continue to sound like James Islington's Licanius Trilogy

Tad:

The Heart of What was Lost
The Shadow of Things to Come

Islington:

The Shadow of What was Lost
An Echo of Things to Come
The Light of All that Falls

I doubt Williams knows about Islington's series. I think it's more probable that the naming convention is popular. Look at all of the murder/crime mystery books that have the 'The Girl/Woman in the/one the [place noun here]' naming convention. 

Anyways, it was a pleasure to read through this thread. I only read MST after ASOIF and really enjoyed it but didn't quite love it; for me, this newer trilogy is more interesting despite some of the repetition. I prefer the emphasis on the Norns/Sithi/lore in this current series. I do miss Isgrimnur quite a bit as I think there should be some more levity introduced to the series at times. The pacing does flag some but I find the new books to be better paced than the OG series so I'm surprised to see that as a criticism. 

[End of Disc One]

Tad has turned in a draft of The Navigator's Children, and it's currently longer than To Green Angel Tower

 

[Lord Patrek]

Good God!

[Lightsnake]

"I've finished the book. It will be in 5 800 page installments, delivered every six months on subscription."

Me: Sigh. Cash or check, Mr. Williams?

[Werthead]

To Green Angel Tower is the longest epic fantasy novel ever written, so Williams has smashed his own record here.

[ylvs]

On 9/16/2020 at 5:33 PM, End of Disc One said:

Tad has turned in a draft of The Navigator's Children, and it's currently longer than To Green Angel Tower

 

This is simply not true. Nothing has been turned in to anybody. Nobody has seen a single page of The Navigator's Children so far.

Deb talked on twitter about him editing his first draft *before* sharing it with people. If there was a manuscript to be read I would have it. I don't.

 

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, ylvs said:

This is simply not true. Nothing has been turned in to anybody. Nobody has seen a single page of The Navigator's Children so far.

Deb talked on twitter about him editing his first draft *before* sharing it with people. If there was a manuscript to be read I would have it. I don't.

 

Yeah, I corrected that in my reporting.

[Galactus]

On 8/4/2019 at 10:28 PM, SeanF said:

A fair review, IMHO.

I think it's clear that Miri is far better qualified than Simon, to rule.   Simon was very foolish to try and turn her into being just Queen Consort, at the start of their reign, and she was right to push back against this.

This feels a bit of a retcon, since at the end of TGT this is pretty much exactly what Simon says? (in general I feel like the sequel series kind of regresses a bunch of characters in order to create drama in the intervening period) 

[Jiriki]

Let me reiterate what Ylvs has stated: no draft has been submitted. Deborah says on Twitter that the manuscript is "currently being prodigiously cut, as it needs to be". There is no submitted draft. Just a work in progress that got a bit hefty in the telling and is now being pared back. What the final product will be, no-one yet knows. But it clearly will not be a slim volume, because that's not how Tad writes final volumes.

[ylvs]

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, I corrected that in my reporting.

Cool. Appreciate it.

[mix_masta_micah]

9 hours ago, Galactus said:

This feels a bit of a retcon, since at the end of TGT this is pretty much exactly what Simon says? (in general I feel like the sequel series kind of regresses a bunch of characters in order to create drama in the intervening period) 

It doesn't feel very manufactured to me. Any other examples besides Miri or possibly Simon? 

[Derfel Cadarn]

I’ve got but still to read the novea and two novels. Will wait until nearer book 3’s release and start a full re-read.

[Lord Varys]

Good to hear that the book is likely going to be a BIG BOOK in light of the fact that the I'd say we only have a very sketchy idea what the bad guys are planning and how it is supposed to be implemented.